Style containing outline numbering - outline number does not appea

[Caroline]

Hi folks,

I use Word 2000 in an office that uses predefined styles for outline
numbering. This was all fine and dandy (except for the usual Word 2000
numbering issues) until I struck the following problem:

As far as I can reconstruct, this problem occurs when you paste text
containing a particular style into a document that does not have that style.
Then if you use Organizer to transfer the style into the document (after the
paste) the style appears without any outlining. Sometimes it has the correct
indents, sometimes not. No matter how many times you try to transfer the
style, it just won't bring across the outlining.
I have found this problem twice, with two different documents and different
styles, but as far as I can tell both times there was a paste from another
document, and then the user discovered the style was missing and tried to
copy it across.

The only fix I have found for this problem is to use a different style
altogether (not always possible) or to dump the document and start again.

Any help would be appreciated. We have a lot of old documents and we can't
update them all with the correct styles, so I know I'm going to run across
this little number over and over again.

Cheers,
Caroline

 

[Margaret Aldis]

Hi Caroline

Word 2000 is really pretty buggy in this area, so I'm not sure you are going
to find a simple way around it. There are a few things you could check that
might help, and a way of setting up the template so that you can get the
styles via an update, though probably not using the Organizer. I'm dredging
memory here but:

In the pasted content, make sure you are getting fully matched style and
numbering. You might find that using Ctrl-Q to reset to style works, but if
the style itself is coming across without numbering but the pasted text has
the numbering as direct formatting you may be able to update the style by
redefining to match the selection (should be offered in Word 2000 when you
reapply the style from the dropdown, I think.)

I'm not sure the Organizer ever works for numbered styles in Word 2000, but
just in case try doing the copy "Three times for luck" while the dialog is
open. (In Word XP and 2003 that realigns the styles and list templates, but
so much changed under the surface it may not work earlier.)

The full workaround is to use a macro to set up the numbered styles,
avoiding the use of the List Gallery. In Word 97 and Word 2000 that seems to
firmly cement the list template and the linked styles together, so you can
update the style from template (though not via the Organizer) - and even if
all else fails, you can run the macro to set up the numbered styles, which
might be the simplest solution for your old documents. There is example code
and a long discussion at

http://groups.google.com/group/micr...+"list+template"+named&hl=en#7aa4a36edee08fd0

or here

http://www.word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/ListRestartFromStyle.htm

I also found an old post of mine where I listed some problems that may be
the same as yours:
http://groups.google.com/group/micr...e_frm/thread/3812849fe7bc5ed/d80bb0e2d4ee05e1

Hope this is some help

 

[Caroline]

Hi Margaret,

Thanks very much.

I will have to investigate the macros further - it certainly sounds like it
would save me a lot of time with the old documents.

The 'copy three times' in Organizer I have found to work when the document
contains the correct styles, but they have become broken (happened to me
today, level 1 of a style lost it's outline numbering, and was able to be
fixed via Organizer). But Organizer seems to be pretty well useless when it
comes to the old documents with the problem I mentioned in my first post.

I'll follow up on the macros and see how that goes.

Cheers,
Caroline.

 

[Chuck Henrich]

The key thing about taming outline paragraph numbering is understanding that
it relies on list templates which are linked to styles but are not actually
part of style definitions.

List templates are defined separately from styles. You define LTs using the
Customize Outline Numbered List dialog or through code.

List templates have levels (1-9) which correspond to the number levels you
see when you define the numbering for a set of styles. Word's numbering
dialog allows you to create a named list template that is associated with a
style (the "ListNum field list name" field in the Customize Outline Numbered
List dialog) but unfortunately that dialog doesn't allow you to link
individual styles with a list template's specific levels - the only way to do
that is through code (the ".LinkedStyle" property of the list level). IMHO
this is a basic design flaw in Word's numbering feature which can and should
be fixed, something I've done myself (for more information visit my website).

If you want to copy outline numbered styles between documents and have them
retain their outline numbering, you first must link a named list template to
your style and also link the style to the appropriate list level. Once
you've done that Organizer will *usually* copy the styles and their numbering
correctly. Unfortunately *usually* isn't always (I've run into situations in
2003 where it doesn't although it does in 2000). I've created a utility that
does that which is free for personal use.

I'm not sure where the "Organizer copy 3 times" idea came from but it's
never worked for me. That's not surprising because if a style isn't linked
to a list level the list template then Word has no way of identifying which
list level should be copied over. In any case there's nothing magical about
the number 3 - copying over and over hoping that the numbers will copy over
with the styles is just as much a toss of the dice at 3 times as at 30.

It all sounds pretty complicated but really it's just tedious. You might
want to take a look at the following for an example of how to put the concept
into practice:
http://www.microsoft.com/communitie...3fdcc2-85e5-4857-ab8e-34de40dd0bb4&sloc=en-us

HTH

 

[Chuck Henrich]

Correction - you CAN link individual styles to specific list levels in a
named list template through the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog in the
"Link level to style" field. My apologies.

 

[Charles Kenyon]

Hi Chuck,

So far as I know, I came up with the copy three times rule a while back. It
is important when copying linked or cascading styles. Copying once will lose
all links, between styles. Copying three times will retain all links,
between styles. List templates are something else entirely.

I do use the Organizer copy method with outline numbering styles and it
works for me. I just tried it again to make sure, using a template source
that was not created on this computer. The numbering formatting is retained.
The original numbering was set using the procedures outlined in Shauna
Kelly's articles back around 2001. It seems to be stable but I haven't tried
to destruction test it, just used it in practicing law.

The macro for transfering the styles is below.

Sub PleadingStyleTransfer()
'
' PleadingStyleTransfer Macro
' Macro written 14 November 2001 by Charles Kyle Kenyon
'
On Error GoTo NoDocument 'In case called when no document is open.
Dim sThisTemplate As String
Dim sTargetDoc As String
Dim i As Integer
Dim iCount As Integer
Dim rResponse As Variant 'vbMsgBoxResult in Word 2000 or later
sThisTemplate = ThisDocument.FullName
sTargetDoc = ActiveDocument.FullName 'generates error if no document
open
rResponse = MsgBox(Prompt:="This command redefines your Body Text Style
and" _
& vbCrLf & "Heading Styles 1-9. Are you sure you want to do this?" _
& vbCrLf & vbCrLf & "If you are not sure, answer 'No' and make a
backup of your document." _
& vbCrLf & "Then run the command to copy the styles again.", _
Title:="Are you sure you want to redefine your styles?", _
Buttons:=vbYesNo + vbExclamation)
If rResponse = vbNo Then Exit Sub
On Error Resume Next
' Copy Body Text and Pleading Styles to Active Document
For i = 1 To 3 ' copy styles three times
StatusBar = "Copying Styles - Round " & i & " of 3"
With Application
.OrganizerCopy Source:=sThisTemplate, _
Destination:=sTargetDoc, Name:="Body Text,bt,bt1", Object:=
_
wdOrganizerObjectStyles
StatusBar = i & "/3: Body Text"
For iCount = 1 To 9
.OrganizerCopy Source:=sThisTemplate, _
Destination:=sTargetDoc, Name:= _
"Heading " & iCount & ",h" & iCount & ",Pleading " &
iCount _
& ",p" & iCount, Object:= _
wdOrganizerObjectStyles
StatusBar = i & "/3: Pleading " & iCount & " copied"
Next iCount
End With
Next i
StatusBar = "All styles copied."
' Change to Pleading 1 style?
rResponse = MsgBox(Prompt:="Change to Pleading 1 style and go into
Outline view?", _
Buttons:=vbYesNo, Title:="Pleading Styles Imported - start
writing?")
If rResponse = vbYes Then
Selection.Style = ActiveDocument.Styles("Heading 1,h1,Pleading
1,p1")
ActiveWindow.ActivePane.View.Type = wdMasterView
Else 'not now - then reminder
MsgBox Prompt:="The style to start your pleading is Pleading 1 or
p1." _
& vbCrLf & "It is probably easiest to work in Outline view."
End If
Exit Sub
NoDocument:
MsgBox Prompt:="Sorry, this command is only available when you have a
document open." _
& vbCrLf & "It should be used after you have your caption set up.", _
Title:="No document open!", Buttons:=vbExclamation
End Sub

--
Charles Kenyon

Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word

Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of
Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide

See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome!
--------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies
and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn
from my ignorance and your wisdom.

 

[Charles Kenyon]

The macro I posted in another response in this thread worked in Word 97 and
Word 2000 with numbered outline styles.
--
Charles Kenyon

Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word

Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of
Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide

See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome!
--------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies
and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn
from my ignorance and your wisdom.

 

[Chuck Henrich]

Hi Charles

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. The problem with
relying on Organizer to copy outline numbering is that it isn't reliable -
sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The Organizer x 3 method has
never worked for me and there isn't any logical reason why it should - if
Organizer was going to work for me it worked after the first try and if it
didn't work the first time it didn't work however many times I tried it
unless I got lucky and Organizer just happened to copy over the correct list
template out of all the unnamed list templates floating around in the source
document. (BTW - list templates aren't something else from outline numbered
styles, they *are* the outline numbering linked to the styles. Without list
templates you have no numbering.)

I found that if I named my list templates then everything settled down and I
didn't have to cross my fingers, close my eyes and pray. (I'm kidding - I
didn't really close my eyes ) Naming list templates is the only way to
reliably link styles with a specific list template - otherwise Word often
creates a new list template every time you make a change to any of the list
levels involved. (Pre-XP versions of Word could end up with documents
containing 1500+ list templates. Word 2002/XP seemed to cut down on list
template bloat drastically and 2003 seems even better.)

However I have found that using .OrganizerCopy (ie copying styles using
code) transfers list templates along with styles a lot more reliably than
using the dialog (Tools>Templates and Add-ins>Organizer).

I know I'm suggesting something different than what has been standard
teaching but in this case I think standard teaching needs updating.

 

[Charles Kenyon]

The copy three times method was developed for cascading styles, not numbered
styles. Any time you have one style based on another, based on another,
copying once using the Organizer does not maintain the links. This is
documented at
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q113/1/06.asp.
--
Charles Kenyon

Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word

Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of
Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide

See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome!
--------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies
and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn
from my ignorance and your wisdom.

 

[Chuck Henrich]

Ah. An earlier post in this thread suggested that the OP use the Organizer x
3 method "for luck" in trying to copy numbered lists and I was responding to
that. Thanks for the confirmation that Organizer x 3 method will not
reliably copy numbered styles, as I said.

 

[Margaret Aldis]

Hi Chuck

I think we have to agree that we all have different experiences with
numbering

Several people have reported that "copy 3 times" worked for them, which is
why I usually suggest giving it a try, along with a bunch of other stuff. Of
course it could be that it works when the root problem is a cascading one
rather than an LT linking one, but I think it is possible that there is an
ordering problem (similar to the cascading one) when Word copies a bunch of
numbered styles.

My own experience has been to have had much better luck with Update from
template than with the Organizer. I went early down a route of setting up
numbering via macro (using the LT collection and avoiding List Galleries)
which happily completely solved the musical chairs problem for Update from
template. This was back in Word 97 though, and there were big changes under
the surface in Word 2002 so several things that wouldn't work from the UI
then do work now (and maybe vice versa).

Since I still use a macro method (with named LT) to set up numbering in my
own templates, and hardly ever touch the Organizer for styles, my later
experiences are not typical. However, I'm now of the opinion that neither
using the macro nor naming the list template is essential, and in fact LT
naming in 2002/2003 might sometimes cause problems of its own. I've managed
in these later versions occasionally to achieve a "zombie" list template
name, which is not found on an existence test, but causes an "in use" error
if the set up macro then attempts to use it. Word plays some strange games
with the names, especially on pasting (see stuff Klaus Linke has posted on
this) and updating from template. For instance, if you try to update one of
my documents where both the target (the document) and source (the attached
template) contain list templates with the same name the name gets deleted.
Then a second update puts it back (except strangely if you run the same
update sequence from a global template, when it stays missing). The thing
is, though, that whether or not the name is copied, the correct LT, with
full style linking *is* updated correctly, and without increasing the LT
count - hence my belief that the name is not central to the linking issues.

In another post you asked for some historical links that have disappeared
from the MVP site - they are:

http://groups.google.com/group/micr..._frm/thread/118758b170e0f952/8d8c0575e5585d2c
(ListNumbering Street, revisited)

and the original Nightmare on ListNumbering Street
http://groups.google.com/group/micr..._frm/thread/eafbb7e19416f0d1/7aa4a36edee08fd0

there's also some stuff on LT naming here:
http://groups.google.com/group/micr..._frm/thread/4ba8b5b63e92d45a/20683690d0d61450

I have to say the longer I've spent on this, the less sure I am there can be
any "standard teaching" or full understanding and controlling what goes on
<sigh>.

 

[Chuck Henrich]

Hi Margaret

Thanks for the details on your experiences in 2002/2003. I've also noticed
strange things - like Word assigning named list templates to Heading styles,
the names being variations on other list template names in the document, for
no particular reason. However I (thankfully) haven't had any problems with
naming list templates or updating them.

Also thanks for the links, I'll check them out.

I've searched the MS site but haven't seen any clarity from their side on
this whole subject. Are you aware of any published material from MS that
explains how they've implemented list templates and why they (mis)behave they
way they do?

 

[Margaret Aldis]

Are you aware of any published material from MS that
explains how they've implemented list templates and why they (mis)behave
they
way they do?

No.

 

[Charles Kenyon]

Not from MS, but...

See: How to create numbered headings or outline numbering in your Word
document
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html. (For
bullets see http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/bullets/controlbullets.html, the
subject is related.)

This is based on ...

Word's Numbering Explained
http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm

Additional information you may find useful or need is at:

How to Create a Template, Part II
http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart2.htm

Legal Numbering
http://www.addbalance.com/usersguide/numbering.htm

Seven Laws of Outline Numbering
http://www.microsystems.com/fra_sevenlawsofoutlinenumbering.htm

The following are some discussions on the Microsoft newsgroups on numbering:
Nightmare on ListNumbering Street <URL:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=9e790fa7ed2886b3,18&ic=1>
The Joy of Lists <URL:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=811287ebce8fc203,15&ic=1>
Relinking ListTemplates <URL:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=2350746054c838e,12&ic=1>
Outline numbering: restart doesn't restart <URL:
http://groups.google.com/[email protected]#p>
Format Doesn't "Hold" <URL:
http://groups.google.com/[email protected]#p>
(above list compiled by Dave Rado, Word MVP)

ListNumbering Street Revisited <URL:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&th=57df77857e4993ce>

--
Charles Kenyon

Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word

Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of
Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide

See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome!
--------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies
and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn
from my ignorance and your wisdom.

 

[Caroline]

Hi guys,

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one confused by Word's numbering

But this has been helpful and I have discovered that the styles (which were
created long before my time) do *not* have a named list template.

Considering how religiously these styles are used, I'm surprised there
haven't been more problems - especially with List Template bloat.

But at least I have something to try now. Maybe with named list templates
and perhaps a macro to replace the styles I'll be able to tame those outdated
documents.

Cheers,
Caroline.