Style numbering following no rule

[Benoit Leraillez]

Hello,

For the first time in my life I decided to use Word's styles and
automatic numbering since I work on a rather longer document than before
(going from 1-2 pages to over 50).

I used "Tilte 1" thru "Title 4" styles, modified them and renamed them
to leave the originals in place. Everything is fine except half way in
the document MyTitle 3 wont restart with a number 1 following a
MyTitle 2 but they will after the next MyTitle 2! So I have something
like:

I
I.A.
I.A.1.
I.A.2.
I.A.3.
I.B.1.
I.B.2.
I.B.3.
I.C.4. <--- Wont restart at 1
I.C.5.
I.C.6.
I.D.1. <--- Does start again!
I.D.2.
II.A.1.
II.A.2.

I've been going around this for hours, trying to redo the Styles from
scratch and at the same places in the document the numbering wont follow
the rules.

I'm lost and I can't figure it out what's wrong in the document and
where, anyone got an idea? (sorry for my English, I use a French version
of Office X ;-)

 

[Dayo Mitchell]

Word's numbering is extremely complicated. I don't use it myself, but see
here for step-by-step instructions on setting it up so it works and
continues to work.

http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html

DM

 

[Benoit Leraillez]

Word's numbering is extremely complicated. I don't use it myself, but see
here for step-by-step instructions on setting it up so it works and
continues to work.

Thanks, I've read it thru and compared to what I had in my settings and
all was identical. This morning I reopen my document and all the level 3
numbering now refuses to start from 1 after a level 2 paragraph
eventhough it's checked in the prefs.

I'll give it a last try tomorrow if someone gives an idea on why tis
level wont number correctly otherwise I'll drop Word and use a plan only
application to write the document and use Word in the last moment for
page layout and other-side-of-the-fence distribution ;-)

If anyone has any other idea?

 

[Klaus Linke]

Hi Benoît,

If you follow the steps in Shauna's article, there isn't much that can go
wrong.
The most critical step is to define the numbering for all styles in one go.
You'd modify the "Title 1" style numbering, and *without leaving the
dialog*, link the other levels to the other "Title" styles:
"Level: 1" would be linked to your "Title 1" style.
"Level: 2" would be linked to your "Title 2" style, and "Restart numbering
after: Level 1".
"Level: 3" would be linked to your "Title 3" style, and "Restart numbering
after: Level 2".

After you have done that, you don't need to (and shouldn't) modify the
numbering of the other styles at all.

In case you're wondering: Anybody would consider it logical to modify the
numbering of the styles one style after another, but Word messes up if you
do.

If you did it like that already, and it still didn't work in a certain old
document, maybe you have applied numbering as manual formatting in the past.
This might keep the style numbering from working.

To get rid of manual paragraph formatting (including manual numbering):
With "Edit > Replace", search for "Format > Style: Title 1" style and
replace all with "Format > Style: Title 1".
Do the same for the other "Title" styles.

Greetings,
Klaus

 

[Dayo Mitchell]

Some other articles you could check out:

http://www.syntagma.demon.co.uk/FAQs/ListRestartMethods.htm
http://www.syntagma.demon.co.uk/FAQs/ListRestartFromStyle.htm

Although Klaus knows better than I and from what he says, getting numbering
to work properly is dependent on the settings having been originally
constructed in a certain manner, not whether they appear to be correct now.
You may want to start from scratch one final time, following Shauna Kelly's
article that I cited before, and see if it behaves.

DM

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word]]

Hi Benoit:

Sorry: I know what the problem is, and I can tell you that you *haven't*
followed Shauna's advice absolutely exactly

A list that "won't restart" is a "single-level" list. It is the
old-fashioned list and they won't restart. What you need is an Outline
Level list.

The principle of an Outline List is very simple: there's only ONE of each
list in a document, but it can have multiple re-starts (as opposed to a
single-level list, of which there can be multiple lists in a document but
none of them will restart).

Make yourself a test document and do this:

1) Create ten paragraphs

2) Apply the styles Heading 1 through Heading 9 to each of the first nine
paragraphs

3) Click in the first paragraph (the one with Heading 1 style)

4) Use Format>Style>Modify>Numbering> and choose the OUTLINE numbering
style you want.

5) OK your way out, and you will find that Word has done almost exactly
what you want.

Now: If you examine what Word has done, you will see that it has attached a
separate style to each of Headings 1 through 9. The style carries the font
and paragraph properties for each paragraph. However, you will find that
all of this is controlled by the Numeric Scheme, which in Word is called a
List Template.

It is the List Template that determines which styles are associated with
each level of the outline list. It is also the list template that carries
the indents and formatting of the numbering. And it is the list template
that has the ability to re-start (or not, if it is a single-level list
template).

There are several things that can go wrong with numbering in Word if you do
not take care with it. It is far too complex (which makes it extremely
flexible, but difficult to learn).

Usually what has gone wrong is that you have some paragraphs intermingled in
the document that do not belong to the same list. This is very easy to do
if you are pasting text in from other documents. I have a macro that pastes
everything in plain text, which strips all formatting from outside the
current document: I recommend it for a long and happy life with long
documents.

I also recommend that you use the built-in styles Heading 1 through Heading
9 for numbering headings. These are all pre-configured and have an
additional built-in attribute that makes them far more reliable for
numbering than styles you define yourself.

Hope this helps


This responds to article

Thanks, I've read it thru and compared to what I had in my settings and
all was identical. This morning I reopen my document and all the level 3
numbering now refuses to start from 1 after a level 2 paragraph
eventhough it's checked in the prefs.

I'll give it a last try tomorrow if someone gives an idea on why tis
level wont number correctly otherwise I'll drop Word and use a plan only
application to write the document and use Word in the last moment for
page layout and other-side-of-the-fence distribution ;-)

If anyone has any other idea?

--

Please respond only to the newsgroup to preserve the thread.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word]]

Hi Dayo:

Actually, that's not quite the case.

It is true that if you construct the settings in a particular manner, Word's
numbering sets up very easily and works reliably. However, it is also true
that if the settings *are* correct, they will work correctly.

However, many users struggle with the concept of multiple lists in a
document. You can have 12 paragraphs in a document: Paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4,
7 and 9 can be members of List A, and paragraphs 5, 8 and 11 and 12 members
of list B.

1 List A
2 List A
3 List A
4 List A
5 List B
6 No List At All (a Typed Number!!)
7 List A
8 List B
9 List A
10 No List At All (a Typed Number!!)
11 List B
12 List B

You would then see numbering like this:
1 List A
2 List A
3 List A
4 List A
1 List B
13 No List At All (a Typed Number!!)
5 List A
2 List B
6 List A
3 No List At All (a Typed Number!!)
3 List B
4 List B

These can be very frustrating to sort out!

Many users have difficulty with the concept of an outline list that has
multiple "levels" and multiple "starts". And many do not understand that
the whole behaviour is driven by the Outline Level property of the
paragraph, which may come from the style or it may be applied directly or by
the Document Map!

The reason I recommend the built-in Heading 1 through Heading 9 styles is
that they have built-in safety mechanisms that prevent most of the errors:

* No other styles in the document can have these names, so there can be
ONLY one list of Headings in the document.

* The Level property of a Heading Style is built-in and read-only, it
cannot be changed by either the user or the Document Map.

* Since there can be only one set of Heading styles in a document, and only
one list of headings, text that is pasted in from other documents
automatically is unable to misbehave: Word won't let it.

The other common problem with numbering is that a user gets into trouble,
and flounders around changing properties without really understanding what
they are doing. If you apply conflicting properties often enough,
eventually you corrupt the document's master style table. After that, any
settings you make will appear to be accepted but will in fact be ignored.
This can catch out even document professionals, because early cases of this
problem are quite difficult to diagnose.

The cure is very simple: copy all except the last paragraph mark into a
clean fresh new blank document generated from a fresh new Normal Template.
The document's master properties are all contained in the File Header, a
large table of settings that contains the style table and around 250 other
pieces of global information. The File Header is in a hidden container just
below the very last paragraph mark in the document. If you do not copy
that, you leave the corrupted definitions behind, and can then quickly fix
whatever is wrong with the document.

Hope this helps

This responds to article

Some other articles you could check out:

http://www.syntagma.demon.co.uk/FAQs/ListRestartMethods.htm
http://www.syntagma.demon.co.uk/FAQs/ListRestartFromStyle.htm

Although Klaus knows better than I and from what he says, getting numbering
to work properly is dependent on the settings having been originally
constructed in a certain manner, not whether they appear to be correct now.
You may want to start from scratch one final time, following Shauna Kelly's
article that I cited before, and see if it behaves.

DM

--

Please respond only to the newsgroup to preserve the thread.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Benoit Leraillez]

The other common problem with numbering is that a user gets into trouble,
and flounders around changing properties without really understanding what
they are doing. If you apply conflicting properties often enough,
eventually you corrupt the document's master style table. After that, any
settings you make will appear to be accepted but will in fact be ignored.
This can catch out even document professionals, because early cases of this
problem are quite difficult to diagnose.

First of all thanks to all for your help and pointers.

What really put me in the wrong direction is that I thought that when
you edited a style and went to the manual Hierarchy part (I use a French
version so my translation may not be 100% perfect but you'll follow I'm
sure) you could change the hierarchy level by choosing it in the top
left part of the panel! But that did'nt do anything so what I actually
had was mixed up levels.

So here's simply how I proceded:

1. I created the different paragraph formats I needed and gave them a
specific name (MyHeader1, MyHeader2... MyList1, MyList2,
MyNormalText...) this way I'm sure that the document will keep it's
look when going from one machine to another (as long as the font is
present).

2. I selected Words Header 1 (Titre 1 in my language version) and:
a. personnaly definied the numbering scheme I wanted;
b. applied to each level a personnal paragraph format.

3. Did the same thing for the List levels.

4. It's done and it works ;-)

What's interesting is that once you do it that way if you choose
Header 1 and Tab to go down to the level you want the name shown in the
menu will be the name of the paragraphe format you defined, and not
Header X. And if you apply a personnal paragraph format that is used by
a header it will gain header numbering by default (a backspace will pull
it out of the numbering scheme and leave it as a "normal" paragraph).

But the real thing is to i) click on that arrow to have Word show that
bottom part of the panel (to apply formats to the level) and ii)
understand that the levels you can change in the panel dont modify the
level of the format you are modifying; and I did not find anything in
the help concerning this, nor did ballon help come up.

Thanks again.

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word]]

Hi Benoit:

Be careful working from machine to machine -- numbering formats sometimes do
not copy when you copy text.

I prefer to create the numbering formats and store them in a template, then
attach the template to the document. That way the numbering format may not
copy but it will be there anyway.

If you *are* using numbering in a document, ensure that if you do have a
template attached, you do NOT have "Automatically update styles at open"
switched on. If you have automatic update on, your numbering gets blown
away every time you open the document.

Personally, I would still advise using Heading 1 through 9: you will find it
much more reliable. Your style definition will not change in the document
if you switch Automatic update OFF.

But the real thing is to i) click on that arrow to have Word show that
bottom part of the panel (to apply formats to the level) and ii)
understand that the levels you can change in the panel dont modify the
level of the format you are modifying; and I did not find anything in
the help concerning this, nor did ballon help come up.

I put in a bug on that yesterday

Cheers

--

Please respond only to the newsgroup to preserve the thread.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]