Tab at 0.63 cm

[Geoff]

Word 2000:

When I copy a section of Doc1 into a blank Doc2, a tab stop
appears in every paragraph of Doc2 at 0.63 cm. This tab stop
did not exist in Doc1. (The paragraphs are outline numbered, if
this makes any difference.)

Why does this tab stop appear?
How can I prevent it from appearing?
Why does Find&Replace not find a tab stop at 0.63 cm and replace
it with nothing?

TIA
Geoff

 

[Jay Freedman]

Word 2000:

When I copy a section of Doc1 into a blank Doc2, a tab stop
appears in every paragraph of Doc2 at 0.63 cm. This tab stop
did not exist in Doc1. (The paragraphs are outline numbered, if
this makes any difference.)

Why does this tab stop appear?
How can I prevent it from appearing?
Why does Find&Replace not find a tab stop at 0.63 cm and replace
it with nothing?

TIA
Geoff

As for why the tab stop appears, presumably it's part of the numbered style
in Doc2. The whole issue of what happens to formatting when you copy from
one document to another is a swamp, but these articles may help to explain
it:
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/styles/FormatOfTextChanges.html
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html

Find&Replace can't do anything about tab *stops*; it can replace only tab
*characters*. To remove the tab stop, you'll have to modify the style and/or
the outline numbering definition.

 

[Geoff]

As for why the tab stop appears, presumably it's part of the numbered style
in Doc2. The whole issue of what happens to formatting when you copy from
one document to another is a swamp, but these articles may help to explain
it:
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/styles/FormatOfTextChanges.html
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html

Find&Replace can't do anything about tab *stops*; it can replace only tab
*characters*. To remove the tab stop, you'll have to modify the style and/or
the outline numbering definition.

Jay,

Many thanks for your reply.

The 0.63 mm tab stop was not part of the numbered style in Doc2.

I have read the Shauna Kelly articles. I notice that the
"Bullets and Numbering" dialog (in Word 2000) and the
"Customised Outline Numbered List" dialog (in Word 2002 and
2003) override the styles attached to the numbering levels.

My document did link a different paragraph style to each outline
numbering level. I imported the styles into Doc2, before
pasting in the text from Doc1. So the issue wasn't with styles,
but with the numbering dialog.

The Word 2000 Format > "Bullets & Numbering" dialog does not
allow the user to set the position of the tab stop after the
outline number (unlike Word 2002 and 2003).

My paragraph styles start life without tab stops. Then,
when I enter and exit the Format > "Bullets & Numbering" dialog,
the paragraph style for level 1 contains a tab stop at 0.63 mm.
This is the default tab stop after a bullet - ie if I put a
bullet on a paragraph, the bullet is at 0.2 mm and the following
tab stop (and text) is at 0.83 mm, the difference being the
magic 0.63 mm. Therefore, the numbering dialog is changing the
style with this default Word setting.

I can go into the level 1 style and remove the tab stop and the
document will reformat itself OK. But, whenever I go into the
numbering dialog, the document goes out of kilter again.

Perhaps that's why the later versions of Word allow the user to
specify the tab stop in the "Customised Outline Numbered List"
dialog.

I shall read the additional MVP material soon and see if that
helps. Otherwise, I shall have to keep doing battle or upgrade.

Incidentally, how would I search for a tab character? The
Format button in the Replace dialog seems only to permit
searching for a tab stop (but then the search fails to find
anything). Also, Ctrl-Tab doesn't enter a tab character.

Thanks again for the leads. I thought you might like to know
where they took me.

Geoff

 

[Shauna Kelly]

Hi Geoff

Two things to consider.

1. Format > "Bullets & Numbering" is never a good idea if you want to get
control over your bullets. Use styles, and modify the style.

2. At Tools > Options > Compatibility, check to see if the box "Don't add
automatic tab stop for hanging indent" is ticked. Note that this is a
per-document setting.

By the way, 0.63cm is the default tab setting for bullets.

Hope this helps.

Shauna Kelly. Microsoft MVP.
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word

 

[Jay Freedman]

Incidentally, how would I search for a tab character? The
Format button in the Replace dialog seems only to permit
searching for a tab stop (but then the search fails to find
anything). Also, Ctrl-Tab doesn't enter a tab character.

Thanks again for the leads. I thought you might like to know
where they took me.

Geoff

I'll let Shauna answer the important part of your question, since she
knows a lot more than I about numbering and styles.

Regarding the Replace dialog, it will search for a tab character if
you put the code ^t in the Find What box. If you don't remember the
code, click the More button, then the Special button, and select Tab
Character from the list.

When I used the Format button and selected Tab to define a tab stop to
search for, it didn't find the tab stops in the document. I think
that's a bug. However, I was able to do it with a macro like this:

Sub FindTabStop()
Dim oRg As Range

Set oRg = ActiveDocument.Range
With oRg.Find
.ClearFormatting
.Text = ""
.ParagraphFormat.TabStops.Add _
Position:=InchesToPoints(2), _
Alignment:=wdAlignTabLeft
.Forward = True
.Wrap = wdFindContinue
.Format = True
.MatchWildcards = False
If .Execute Then
oRg.Select
End If
End With
End Sub

The macro recorder won't correctly create this kind of macro.

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Jay-

FWIW, I've found no problem locating default or custom tabs with the ^t
(Word 2003 or 2002) _unless_ the tab is the result of Bullets & Numbering. It
does, oddly enough, find tabs in a TOC.

Regards |:>)

 

[Jay Freedman]

Hi Taz,

I don't have any trouble locating tab characters either, using ^t.

The trouble was in trying to locate text that has a particular tab stop in
its paragraph formatting, whether or not there's a tab character leading to
that tab stop. This involves clicking the Format button in the Find dialog,
selecting Tab, and entering the kind of tab stop you want to find. Last
night on my home PC it wouldn't find any text with, for instance, a 2"
left-aligned tab stop even though the document does contain text like that.
Today on my work PC, it finds it with no problem. Now I don't know what's
going on... more results later.

 

[Geoff]

Shauna,

Many thanks for your reply.

The Bullets & Numbering Dialog:

It makes no difference whether I enter the above dialog from
Format > Style > Modify > Format > Numbering or from Format >
Bullets & Numbering. When I click OK in the above dialog, a tab
stop appears at 0.63 cm in the paragraph style attached to
outline numbering level 1. I don't want this tab stop because
my indents and tab stops are already defined in the styles
attached to each outline numbering level.

Compatibility Option:
"Don't add automatic tab stop for hanging indent"

I have tested my document with, and without, this option
selected. The same problem (described above) manifests itself
whenever the OK button is clicked in the "Bullets & Numbering"
dialog.

To be clear, my document does not contain bullets, but outline
numbering. I only drew attention to bullets because 0.63 cm is
the default tab stop for bullets and somehow this same tab stop
is finding its way into my paragraph style for outline numbering
level 1.

I'm beginning to think there is no solution to this problem.

Geoff

 

[Geoff]

Jay,

Many thanks for the tip on finding tab characters. (I should
have known that or discovered it for myself! I think I lapsed
into WordStar/WordPerfect mode!)

Your code is interesting: VBA will find paragraphs with
specific tab stops, yet the user-interface will or won't
depending on which machine you're using. Mmmm... As the Find
or Replace dialog provides for tab-stop searches, then they
should work at the user-interface (so it would seem). I look
forward to your further tests with interest.

Geoff

Hi Taz,

I don't have any trouble locating tab characters either, using ^t.

The trouble was in trying to locate text that has a particular tab stop in
its paragraph formatting, whether or not there's a tab character leading to
that tab stop. This involves clicking the Format button in the Find dialog,
selecting Tab, and entering the kind of tab stop you want to find. Last
night on my home PC it wouldn't find any text with, for instance, a 2"
left-aligned tab stop even though the document does contain text like that.
Today on my work PC, it finds it with no problem. Now I don't know what's
going on... more results later.

--
Regards,
Jay Freedman
Microsoft Word MVP

Hi Jay-

FWIW, I've found no problem locating default or custom tabs with the
^t (Word 2003 or 2002) _unless_ the tab is the result of Bullets &
Numbering. It does, oddly enough, find tabs in a TOC.

Regards |:>)

[snip]
Incidentally, how would I search for a tab character? The
Format button in the Replace dialog seems only to permit
searching for a tab stop (but then the search fails to find
anything). Also, Ctrl-Tab doesn't enter a tab character.

Thanks again for the leads. I thought you might like to know
where they took me.

Geoff

I'll let Shauna answer the important part of your question, since she
knows a lot more than I about numbering and styles.

Regarding the Replace dialog, it will search for a tab character if
you put the code ^t in the Find What box. If you don't remember the
code, click the More button, then the Special button, and select Tab
Character from the list.

When I used the Format button and selected Tab to define a tab stop
to search for, it didn't find the tab stops in the document. I think
that's a bug. However, I was able to do it with a macro like this:

Sub FindTabStop()
Dim oRg As Range

Set oRg = ActiveDocument.Range
With oRg.Find
.ClearFormatting
.Text = ""
.ParagraphFormat.TabStops.Add _
Position:=InchesToPoints(2), _
Alignment:=wdAlignTabLeft
.Forward = True
.Wrap = wdFindContinue
.Format = True
.MatchWildcards = False
If .Execute Then
oRg.Select
End If
End With
End Sub

The macro recorder won't correctly create this kind of macro.

 

[CyberTaz]

Hello Jay-

Now that I re-read the post I see where I misunderstood your point. Haven't
really played with that issue, but it is interesting... although Word is
bug-free, right Even more so based on what you reported back.

Am curious as to what you find.

Regards |:>)

Hi Taz,

I don't have any trouble locating tab characters either, using ^t.

The trouble was in trying to locate text that has a particular tab stop in
its paragraph formatting, whether or not there's a tab character leading to
that tab stop. This involves clicking the Format button in the Find dialog,
selecting Tab, and entering the kind of tab stop you want to find. Last
night on my home PC it wouldn't find any text with, for instance, a 2"
left-aligned tab stop even though the document does contain text like that.
Today on my work PC, it finds it with no problem. Now I don't know what's
going on... more results later.

--
Regards,
Jay Freedman
Microsoft Word MVP

Hi Jay-

FWIW, I've found no problem locating default or custom tabs with the
^t (Word 2003 or 2002) _unless_ the tab is the result of Bullets &
Numbering. It does, oddly enough, find tabs in a TOC.

Regards |:>)

[snip]
Incidentally, how would I search for a tab character? The
Format button in the Replace dialog seems only to permit
searching for a tab stop (but then the search fails to find
anything). Also, Ctrl-Tab doesn't enter a tab character.

Thanks again for the leads. I thought you might like to know
where they took me.

Geoff

I'll let Shauna answer the important part of your question, since she
knows a lot more than I about numbering and styles.

Regarding the Replace dialog, it will search for a tab character if
you put the code ^t in the Find What box. If you don't remember the
code, click the More button, then the Special button, and select Tab
Character from the list.

When I used the Format button and selected Tab to define a tab stop
to search for, it didn't find the tab stops in the document. I think
that's a bug. However, I was able to do it with a macro like this:

Sub FindTabStop()
Dim oRg As Range

Set oRg = ActiveDocument.Range
With oRg.Find
.ClearFormatting
.Text = ""
.ParagraphFormat.TabStops.Add _
Position:=InchesToPoints(2), _
Alignment:=wdAlignTabLeft
.Forward = True
.Wrap = wdFindContinue
.Format = True
.MatchWildcards = False
If .Execute Then
oRg.Select
End If
End With
End Sub

The macro recorder won't correctly create this kind of macro.

 

[Jay Freedman]

Well, now it works on either machine. You can pick your favorite
explanation for what I wrote before:

- Word was in some funky state and needed to be restarted.
- Windows was in some funky state and needed to be rebooted.
- I was in some funky state and needed to be rebooted.
- Gremlins.

I claim it was the fourth one. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

BTW, here's something I could do with a macro but couldn't find a way
to do it from the Replace dialog: In every paragraph that has a tab
stop at 2", delete that tab stop and insert one at 3" (effectively
moving the tab stop). It looks like the dialog can only handle
inserting tab stops, not deleting them.

--
Regards,
Jay Freedman
Microsoft Word MVP

Hello Jay-

Now that I re-read the post I see where I misunderstood your point. Haven't
really played with that issue, but it is interesting... although Word is
bug-free, right Even more so based on what you reported back.

Am curious as to what you find.

Regards |:>)

Hi Taz,

I don't have any trouble locating tab characters either, using ^t.

The trouble was in trying to locate text that has a particular tab stop in
its paragraph formatting, whether or not there's a tab character leading to
that tab stop. This involves clicking the Format button in the Find dialog,
selecting Tab, and entering the kind of tab stop you want to find. Last
night on my home PC it wouldn't find any text with, for instance, a 2"
left-aligned tab stop even though the document does contain text like that.
Today on my work PC, it finds it with no problem. Now I don't know what's
going on... more results later.

--
Regards,
Jay Freedman
Microsoft Word MVP

Hi Jay-

FWIW, I've found no problem locating default or custom tabs with the
^t (Word 2003 or 2002) _unless_ the tab is the result of Bullets &
Numbering. It does, oddly enough, find tabs in a TOC.

Regards |:>)

:

[snip]
Incidentally, how would I search for a tab character? The
Format button in the Replace dialog seems only to permit
searching for a tab stop (but then the search fails to find
anything). Also, Ctrl-Tab doesn't enter a tab character.

Thanks again for the leads. I thought you might like to know
where they took me.

Geoff

I'll let Shauna answer the important part of your question, since she
knows a lot more than I about numbering and styles.

Regarding the Replace dialog, it will search for a tab character if
you put the code ^t in the Find What box. If you don't remember the
code, click the More button, then the Special button, and select Tab
Character from the list.

When I used the Format button and selected Tab to define a tab stop
to search for, it didn't find the tab stops in the document. I think
that's a bug. However, I was able to do it with a macro like this:

Sub FindTabStop()
Dim oRg As Range

Set oRg = ActiveDocument.Range
With oRg.Find
.ClearFormatting
.Text = ""
.ParagraphFormat.TabStops.Add _
Position:=InchesToPoints(2), _
Alignment:=wdAlignTabLeft
.Forward = True
.Wrap = wdFindContinue
.Format = True
.MatchWildcards = False
If .Execute Then
oRg.Select
End If
End With
End Sub

The macro recorder won't correctly create this kind of macro.