Table styles

[Sol Apache]

Word 2004 has an interesting new command and that is table styles. The
problem is that I cannot get it to work.

I have created several blank tables for a template which I have put into
Auto text so that people can use or adapt for their needs. The table heading
has a red background and the text cells have none. I have set paragraph
styles for the cells as well, setting a left header, the rest of the headers
a number header, the leftmost column with a table text style the rest of the
columns with a table number style. The headers are set to go to the bottom
of the cells, while the main part of the table is set to go to the top of
the cells

I have created a table style - or two table styles because it seems that
Word cannot cope with a different format for headers. If I apply the header
table style, all the cells are red, if I apply the main table style the
header loses its colour and also its text visibility because it is white.

Also when I call any table from autotext the leftmost cells have changed to
Times New Roman and have lost the paragraph formatting (in Arial and called
Table Text). Sometimes the table has lost the formatting I had applied
(company table) and has become the (presumably) default table style of
³Table Grid².

Can anyone let me know what I am doing wrong and how to fix it so I can get
the output I want?

Thanks

 

[Sol Apache]

So no one else uses the new table styles??!!

Unsurprising, as it doesn¹t work very well yet.

Would appreciate a reply if anyone can reply on my problem with the table
styles.

Thanks

 

[JE McGimpsey]

So no one else uses the new table styles??!!

Unsurprising, as it doesn¹t work very well yet.

Would appreciate a reply if anyone can reply on my problem with the table
styles.

I use Table Styles occasionally. I'm not exactly sure how to help,
because I don't understand how you're using them. They work fine for my
purposes.

You say that you've created "two table styles because it seems that Word
cannot cope with a different format for headers". I think you have a
misconception about how Table styles work.

A Table style applies to the entire table. Each table can have only one
Table style. If you apply your header table style, the entire table will
have that style. If you then apply the main table style, the entire
table will have that style, and no part of the table will have the
header table style.

When I create/modify a table style, I first format the whole table the
way I want the body of the table to look. I then choose Odd/Even
striping, if desired, from the "Apply formatting to" dropdown and choose
a color/font/decoration, then use that dropdown to apply formatting to
the left column and finally the header row. Each of these can contain
different variations of font, decoration, border, shading, etc.

I typically don't apply any styles/direct formatting on individual
cells. If you do, that formatting will be additive - the table style
will be applied first, then the changes from the formatting/other
style(s) will be applied. If you can achieve all the formatting you need
with the Table style, then I'd suggest selecting the table and choosing
Clear formatting - all the paragraph and character styles and direct
formats will be removed, leaving you with just the Table style.

I'm not sure why your font changes when you insert a table from
autotext. I suspect it's due to the paragraph or character styles you
applied, which may be different in the document you're inserting the
table into.

 

[Sol Apache]

Thanks for your response.

Firstly, I am putting several tables into autotext, but when I call them
down from autotext the first column (not the header) has gone back into
Table Grid style (Times Roman) ie it is not the same style I put into
Autotext. Before the Table Style function existed, if you put a table into
autotext it would emerge the same as you had created it!

Also I could not set one whole table to be one table style. The table I need
has a heading with shaded cells and white text while the rest of the table
is just plain background and black text with perhaps a different style in
the first column then another style for the remaining columns.

In the end I created two table styles, but if I apply the header (Table)
style, then all the cells go red (the header style), and if I apply the
Table style for the other part of the table, then all the heading row is
totally blank because the shading has gone but the text style (white text)
is invisible.

Are all the tables you create have a single type of cell and text style? If
so, what is the point of a table style? So far as I can see it is either in
beta function (if so why didn¹t Microsoft tell us) or it is one of the most
useless functions I have ever encountered.

Thanks

Sol

 

[Sol Apache]

I forgot to mention ³unless I am doing something wrong².

If I am doing something wrong with regard to the table style function, can
you please let me know.

 

[JE McGimpsey]

Also I could not set one whole table to be one table style. The table I need
has a heading with shaded cells and white text while the rest of the table
is just plain background and black text with perhaps a different style in
the first column then another style for the remaining columns.

Please read again what I wrote.

You can create one table style that does exactly what you describe.
That's exactly what a Table style is for - formatting the entire table,
including headers in one go.

Create a Table style based on Table Normal. Use the "Apply formatting
to" dropdown in the Modify Style dialog to set up your first column and
header.

In the end I created two table styles, but if I apply the header (Table)
style, then all the cells go red (the header style), and if I apply the
Table style for the other part of the table, then all the heading row is
totally blank because the shading has gone but the text style (white text)
is invisible.

You must have applied additional styles or direct formatting. From what
you've indicated, that's neither necessary nor desired. After you get
your Table style right, select the table and choose Clear Formatting.

Are all the tables you create have a single type of cell and text style?

No. They're a mix of fonts, shading, decorations and borders. They
sometimes have automatic striping (alternating colors for rows/columns).

If so, what is the point of a table style?

To format an entire table with one style.

So far as I can see it is either in beta function (if so why didn¹t
Microsoft tell us) or it is one of the most useless functions I have
ever encountered.

It's neither. It's that you don't understand what the style does. Once
you understand it, I suspect you'll find it very useful.

 

[Clive Huggan]

Here's my 2 cents worth, chaps ...

Firstly, Sol, I should tell you where I come from (other than Australia,
where I've just woken from slumber on a freezing Sunday morning). I develop
long documents that are transferred between many colleagues (mainly on PCs,
various editions of Word) and me (mainly on Mac OS 10.3.8, Word 2004). I
trust nothing in Word that leads to instability or bizarre behaviour.

I cannot abide features in Word that have been insufficiently thought out
and lead to instability or inconsistency. The latest changes to table
styles, or aspects of them, qualify in this respect. I ignored the new
"Table Normal" style in Word 2004 (maybe in Word X?? -- I jumped straight
from Word 2001), but I did find one problem intruded: if I copy a table in
my previous formatting (about which more in a moment) and paste it into a
new document, the text is pasted in the same style(s) -- more about that in
a moment too -- but not in a table. I have also experienced the styles of
pasted (maybe dragged?) text being converted to "Table Normal" style in the
new document, but can't reproduce it right now. I wouldn't be surprised if
your problem comes from the same stable ...

I mention the above because it may give somebody some insights to go further
than I have.

[BTW, I overcame the problem described -- I either simply drag the table to
a new document, or if I copy and paste a table I include the preceding
paragraph mark (i.e., external to the table, above it).]

Now, here's my table formatting, which -- with the exception of the above --
always works, despite the high number of transfers between computers and
platforms.

1. I usually use more than one style in tables, depending on the need.

2. None of these styles is based on Normal, because a number of document
stability advantages accrue from avoiding Normal, especially with numbering
(discussed often in this newsgroups -- do a Google newsgroup search with key
words and "McGhie" as the author), and, importantly, a recipient¹s Normal
style cannot over-ride yours. The styles I use in tables are based on either
of two underlying styles:

a. If I use a heading in the table, it's based on Heading 1, which has been
modified to be based on ³No style² (because this creates a break in the
inheritance list that isolates the Heading styles as a group -- again, if
you want more, do a Google search in this NG).

b. When non-heading text is used, it's either my customized body text style
(I title it "bt") that is based on "no style", or it's based on style "bt"
-- for example, "table text,tt", which has a smaller font than bt and closer
line spacing, or "table heading,th" which is based on "table text,tt" but is
bold and has different leading before and after.

3. I never change any paragraph or margin formatting (the only thing I
might change is to embolden/italicize a word or a series of words).

I insert *all* tables as AutoText items, of which I have a great variety,
including with colour backgrounds in all or some cells.

The foregoing was designed for total stability, and I'm pleased to say that,
other than the problem introduced in Word 2004 that led to the "copy the
paragraph before, too" workaround, I have *never* had any problem in four
years.

And you'll see that I use more than one style in the tables (as many as, I
suppose, half a dozen).

Now, Sol, I can't fix your problem but I hope the above helps at least as a
workaround.

Full notes that cover the above, among other things, are available in a free
download of some notes on the way I use Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word
to Your Will", which are available from the Word MVPs' website
(http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/Bend/BendWord.htm).

[Note: The document is designed to be used electronically and most subjects
are self-contained dictionary-style entries. Be sure to read the front end
so you can use the document to best advantage and select the right settings
for reading it.]

See in particular the first page of "Appendix C: My specifications for
styles to minimise the likelihood of changed appearance on other computers",
then see the article under the heading "Example ‹ creating and inserting a
pre-formatted table via AutoText" (do a Find command for these words). Most
of the other practices I've alluded to above are covered in the major
section "Styles and templates ‹ the keys to consistency and saving time".

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is at least 7 hours different from the US and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
============================================================

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in. Sometimes it takes a few responses before the best or complete solution
is proposed; sometimes you'll be asked for further information so that a
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and it gives you a blank page the first time, you may need to hit the
circular arrow icon -- "Reload the current page" -- a few times).

============================================================

 

[JE McGimpsey]

I have also experienced the styles of pasted (maybe dragged?) text
being converted to "Table Normal" style in the new document, but
can't reproduce it right now. I wouldn't be surprised if your problem
comes from the same stable ...

Clive:

Just for my edification: since Table Normal is a Table style, not a
Paragraph or Character style, how does *text* get converted to "Table
Normal"?

When I apply Table Normal to text, it doesn't change the paragraph or
character styles of the text. Instead it places the text in a table and
formats the table as Table Normal. But it doesn't seem to change
*anything* about the text style(s). So I don't see any conversion.

Or am I just really, really confused?

Applying a single Table style, with its multiple formats for headers,
first column, last column, last row, etc., to a table seem pretty
intuitive to me.

Using multiple styles within a single table seems very complicated and
counterintuitive, and, at least with me, prone to pretty serious
corruption...

 

[Clive Huggan]

G'day JE; please see below.
CH
===

Clive:

Just for my edification: since Table Normal is a Table style, not a
Paragraph or Character style, how does *text* get converted to "Table
Normal"?

When I originally experienced the problem I mentioned, I tried to repeat it
(which I did) and immediately fell over the solution that picking up the
preceding paragraph mark solved the problem. I haven't reproduced it since
(no need to), but wasn't able to do so when considering Sol's situation.

<deep thought>

No, it was in "Normal" style, not "Table Normal" style, that the text
appeared in.

When I apply Table Normal to text, it doesn't change the paragraph or
character styles of the text. Instead it places the text in a table and
formats the table as Table Normal. But it doesn't seem to change
*anything* about the text style(s). So I don't see any conversion.

Or am I just really, really confused?

.... like me? ;-)

Applying a single Table style, with its multiple formats for headers,
first column, last column, last row, etc., to a table seem pretty
intuitive to me.

It's another way of doing it, certainly. But I usually change to something
only when I know it's stable and it offers something significantly better --
I've got too much to lose. New gizmos in Word are often quite clever,
except for what's been overlooked.

Using multiple styles within a single table seems very complicated and
counterintuitive,

This is my version of uncomplicated and intuitive: decide on the specific
pre-formatted table I've put in AutoText, type the 2- or 3-character
identifier, select these characters if they are not in a blank paragraph,
type Command-Option-v to insert the table, and if necessary change the
styles in the table that appears.

and, at least with me, prone to pretty serious
corruption...

I rarely have only the one style in a table. About half the time I apply one
style for a heading and one for text. The other half of the time I apply
(to the AutoText-inserted originals described in "Bend Word to Your Will")
ordinary heading styles, my "nontoc" heading styles, bulleted
sub-paragraphs, etc etc. I have fairly frequent tables (typically one per
1-3 pages) in documents of say 300 pages. I never have corruption caused by
tables. (Can't remember the last time I had *any* corruption, but that's OT
-- and, as anyone reading "Bend Word to Your Will" will know, one of my
missions in life is to avoid having documents worth tens of thousands of
dollars being kicked to the ground by #%&#! corruption.) And these docs go
Mac -> PC, PC -> Mac multiple times.

As we all know, the great thing about Word is that you can do most things
several ways. I'm open to formatting via Table Normal, though, if you tempt
me enough! ;-)

Clive
=====

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]]

Hi Sol:

Word 2004 has an interesting new command and that is table styles. The
problem is that I cannot get it to work.

No-one else can either It's not you, it's the implementation. Whoever
designed it has completely misunderstood the concepts of "Styles" and
"Tables" and "Documents".

As J.E. Has pointed out, a Table can have only ONE Table Style, which
applies to the entire table, every row, and every cell. If you want
different formatting for one kind of row or one kind of column, you need to
alter that in the Table Style.

A Table Style overrides any paragraph or character styles applied to the
text within a table. Which is why Clive mentions that when he pastes text
from a table into a document, the formatting changes. Unless the Default
Table Style in a document is set to Table Normal, AND Table Normal is set to
have "no formatting" of any description, that's difficult to avoid.

Sorry: I don't use Table Styles. I use ordinary Styles in Tables --
provides a much better and more controllable result

Cheers

I have created several blank tables for a template which I have put into
Auto text so that people can use or adapt for their needs. The table heading
has a red background and the text cells have none. I have set paragraph
styles for the cells as well, setting a left header, the rest of the headers
a number header, the leftmost column with a table text style the rest of the
columns with a table number style. The headers are set to go to the bottom
of the cells, while the main part of the table is set to go to the top of
the cells

I have created a table style - or two table styles because it seems that
Word cannot cope with a different format for headers. If I apply the header
table style, all the cells are red, if I apply the main table style the
header loses its colour and also its text visibility because it is white.

Also when I call any table from autotext the leftmost cells have changed to
Times New Roman and have lost the paragraph formatting (in Arial and called
Table Text). Sometimes the table has lost the formatting I had applied
(company table) and has become the (presumably) default table style of
³Table Grid².

Can anyone let me know what I am doing wrong and how to fix it so I can get
the output I want?

Thanks

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[JE McGimpsey]

A Table Style overrides any paragraph or character styles applied to the
text within a table.

OK, John, I'm probably very confused, but this just hasn't been true in
my docs.

If I have a heading in a table that has, say, the Heading 1 style, and
apply a Table style that turns the table heading font orange with a
yellow background, all the Heading 1 style elements still appear.

Any elements that aren't specified in the Heading 1 style take on the
properties of the Table style. If I haven't specified a font color in
Heading 1, the font color is orange. If I have, the font color is
whatever I set in Heading 1.

How is that overriding? That seems to be simply a cascading:
Table->Paragraph->Character

How is it different than the way a paragraph style "overrides" a
character style?

I find it much more clean to have no paragraph/character styles applied
to a table and format it entirely with a Table style.

What am I missing?

 

[WJ Shack]

How is that overriding? That seems to be simply a cascading:
Table->Paragraph->Character

How is it different than the way a paragraph style "overrides" a
character style?

I find it much more clean to have no paragraph/character styles applied
to a table and format it entirely with a Table style.

I get the same behavior, but how can I have " no paragraph/character styles
applied to a table"?

When I insert a table using Table styles, the font is that of the style
existing where I inserted the table. The Table styles seem able to control
the other things expected (size, color, bold/not bold), but if I specify
Arial in the header and TNR in the remainder of the table in the Table Style
and create the table in a style with font Bookman, everything comes out
Bookman.

 

[Klaus Linke]

[...] how can I have " no paragraph/character styles applied to a table"?


No character style (in a table) is easy: It's the same as in paragraphs...
the "Default Paragraph Style".
Only in tables, the font formatting comes from the table style (usually...
see below) rather than from the paragraph style.

No paragraph style is tricky: For all intents and purposes, the "Normal"
style is transparent in tables.
So if you have "Normal" applied in the table, you won't notice it, and Word
will show you the name of the table style instead.

But, and that is the bad news, only as long as you haven't modified the
"Normal" paragraph style.
If you have changed "Normal" from "Times New Roman" to "Arial", you can no
longer define the font in the table style. The font will then be inherited
from "Normal", not from your table style.
Same with size...

Or if you paste your properly formatted table in a doc where Normal has been
customized, it'll mess up.

Regards,
Klaus

 

[Clive Huggan]

Klaus,

Thank you for your as-always erudite exposition! This starts to explain
some of the oddities of this new half-baked arrangement re table "style" /
Table Normal.

JE,

On July 10 I said "I'm open to formatting via Table Normal, though, if you
tempt me enough!" This is to let you know I'm even less tempted than
before.

I'm going to continue with ordinary paragraph styles in tables as described
in my early post in this thread. There are no downsides, including re
potential corruption. And this is one more good reason for many of us to
continue not to use Normal style and instead to use [non-heading] styles
that are not in the default Word set -- as postulated in "Bend Word to Your
Will" (http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/Bend/BendWord.htm).

And finally: Sol, if you are still following this thread that you started,
thanks indeed for starting it!

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
============

[...] how can I have " no paragraph/character styles applied to a table"?

No character style (in a table) is easy: It's the same as in paragraphs...
the "Default Paragraph Style".
Only in tables, the font formatting comes from the table style (usually...
see below) rather than from the paragraph style.

No paragraph style is tricky: For all intents and purposes, the "Normal"
style is transparent in tables.
So if you have "Normal" applied in the table, you won't notice it, and Word
will show you the name of the table style instead.

But, and that is the bad news, only as long as you haven't modified the
"Normal" paragraph style.
If you have changed "Normal" from "Times New Roman" to "Arial", you can no
longer define the font in the table style. The font will then be inherited
from "Normal", not from your table style.
Same with size...

Or if you paste your properly formatted table in a doc where Normal has been
customized, it'll mess up.

Regards,
Klaus

McGimpsey at (e-mail address removed) wrote on 7/10/05 6:08 AM:

I get the same behavior, but how can I have " no paragraph/character
styles
applied to a table"?

When I insert a table using Table styles, the font is that of the style
existing where I inserted the table. The Table styles seem able to
control
the other things expected (size, color, bold/not bold), but if I specify
Arial in the header and TNR in the remainder of the table in the Table
Style
and create the table in a style with font Bookman, everything comes out
Bookman.

 

[JE McGimpsey]

No character style (in a table) is easy: It's the same as in paragraphs...
the "Default Paragraph Style".
Only in tables, the font formatting comes from the table style (usually...
see below) rather than from the paragraph style.

No paragraph style is tricky: For all intents and purposes, the "Normal"
style is transparent in tables.
So if you have "Normal" applied in the table, you won't notice it, and Word
will show you the name of the table style instead.

But, and that is the bad news, only as long as you haven't modified the
"Normal" paragraph style.
If you have changed "Normal" from "Times New Roman" to "Arial", you can no
longer define the font in the table style. The font will then be inherited
from "Normal", not from your table style.
Same with size...

Or if you paste your properly formatted table in a doc where Normal has been
customized, it'll mess up.

That's the trick. I never customize my Normal paragraph style in any of
my custom templates, and I delete the Normal template once per session,
so Table Styles work flawlessly. I'd forgotten that that was the way
Table styles worked.

 

[JE McGimpsey]

In desperation, I asked Shauna, and even SHE changed the subject

In that case, I should probably reexamine my use. "...where angels fear
to tread," and all...<g>

I've only been using them with clients for a couple of years (and only a
year for Mac clients), but until now I've found them extremely useful.

As Klaus points out, Table styles seem to draw their Font from Table
Normal, which seems to get it from Normal style. Once you customise
Normal style, you then need to chase the hierarchy to set the font in
the table style you use.

Yup. I never *ever* customize Normal in any of my templates. The
presence of a paragraph with Normal style is a red flag indicating that
I haven't yet applied the proper style.

My main beef with Table styles is that once applied, you have a
single overriding style applied to the entire table, which means the
result of applying other styles within the table become a bit of a
lottery.

To me, that's the beauty of Table styles, though. Perhaps my needs (and
those of my clients) are relatively simplistic - I've never needed to
apply another style to a Table-styled table. I've found Table styles
rich enough to format tables exactly the way my clients want them.

The only time I could see applying paragraph styles to a table is if I
used a table for layout (which I never do) rather than presenting
tabular information. In that case, a Table style would be completely
inappropriate.

 

[Klaus Linke]

Hi John,

I think the inheritance is: Table overrides list overrides
Character overrides Paragraph.

Not sure if there is a hierarchy? Seems to me that character and list styles
can be applied on top of a paragraph style, and all three can be applied on
top of a table style.

I always hated the fact that all four (formerly two) share the same dropdown
(or now, pane).
In my mind, they are independent things, and it makes as much sense putting
them together as, say, font color, underline color and shading color.

Another question is what (style) formatting Word removes say if you re-apply
some style (i.e. a table or paragraph style). But that seems a design
decision by Microsoft that's independent of any pre-given hierarchy, and
some of the rules seem to be pretty complex...
At least I haven't completely gotten my head around them.

Regards,
Klaus

 

[Klaus Linke]

Another question is what (style) formatting Word removes say if you

re-apply some style (i.e. a table or paragraph style). But that seems a
design decision by Microsoft that's independent of any pre-given
hierarchy, and some of the rules seem to be pretty complex...
At least I haven't completely gotten my head around them.

That was nonsense.

Re-applying any kind of style doesn't change the other styles that might be
applied.
I thought re-applying a table style would (at least in some cases) remove
paragraph or character styles, but a quick test shows that I most probably
was wrong.

Similarly, I though a few weeks ago that applying a paragraph style would in
some cases remove a character style. That was nonsense, too, as Margaret
Aldis showed me.

Klaus