The Numbering UI in Office 2003 is the worst UI in the history of the world!!!!

[Brian]

Sorry, had to get that off my chest... I've wasted countless hours over the
years trying to get it to do what I want... and I don't mean "do what I want
in the body of the document", I mean just "save what I input". You get
something setup all nice, hit ok, and then it decides to do something a
little different. Close, but never quite what you put in... never what it
was displaying before you hit okay.

I think maybe Lucifer himself got a job at Microsoft figuring he could push
Word users over the edge by almost doing what they want, but NEVER doing
quite what they want.

Whoever thought the 8 magical positional thing was a good idea should ...
well ... I won't go there.

Enough venting... let's see if one of you smart people can help guide me to
some useful state...


(1) Is there any way to clear out those 7 magical numbering settings...
returning them to their defaults... getting word to forget all past attempts
to customize the numbering?

(2) If you have a set of styles that you want to setup to be associated
with an Outline Numbering scheme, is there a "proper" way to do it such that
what you see before you hit OK is what you get after you hit OK? (I've
tried invoking it starting with the topmost style, the bottommost style, an
in the middle style, and so on.)

(3) Is there any forced relationship between the Outline Level of a style
and the Numbering Level of a style. There doesn't seem to be... but I'm
reaching for anything that would explain Word's current bizzarro behavior.

(4) I'm trying to build a template that has a standard set of styles to be
used as the starting point for a whole DB full of documents. Will there be
any reliability when cutting and pasting between those documents that the
styles will "match up" and not shift mysteriously?

(5) My current starter template seemed to be working pretty good... but
then on one file it wasn't restarting numbering properly... that's when I
started trying other things and Word starting building up all these wrong
customizations in the different of the 8 magical slots. I need to somehow
get those magical slots cleared out, I fear, or things may continue to
spiral downward. Can anyone shed any light on how those magical slots are
supposed to work?


Brian

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

You can reset all the panes in the List Gallery by selecting each one in
turn and clicking Reset. For trouble-free outline numbering, carefully
follow the instructions at
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html

 

[Charles Kenyon]

See: How to create numbered headings or outline numbering in your Word
document
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html. (For
bullets see http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/bullets/controlbullets.html, the
subject is related.)

This is based on ...

Word's Numbering Explained
http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm

Additional information you may find useful or need is at:

How to Create a Template, Part II
http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart2.htm

Legal Numbering
http://www.addbalance.com/usersguide/numbering.htm

Numbering is difficult but you can get it to work.
--
Charles Kenyon

Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word

Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of
Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide




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[Brian]

You can reset all the panes in the List Gallery by selecting each one in
turn and clicking Reset. For trouble-free outline numbering, carefully
follow the instructions at
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html

That's a nice doc... answered some of my questions.

I followed it, including resetting all gallery positions... and still I get
crazy behavior.

I chose to modify position 8. I set its Level 1 to "My Heading" style and
the numbering has the (none) number format; and my Level 2 numbering has the
"1." format and is set to the "My Numbered 1" style... but when I click OK,
it changes the My Heading style associated with Level 1 to "1." format!!
So, I re-modify the My Heading style and see that it has Numbering set to
the #7 position in the gallery with some messed up nonsense. So, I reset
that position, reset the style to position #8, customize it to fix it, but
see that everything is still defined correctly in that position! But when I
hit OK, it goes right back to putting a 1. in front of it. STUPID!

Anyway, if anybody can offer any suggestions... I've tried everything I can
think of... other than cracking out the VBA.


Brian

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Instead of defining custom styles, why not use Word's built-in heading
styles, which are already linked to outline levels (especially in the
outline number format you selected). See
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/UseBuiltInHeadingStyles.html. You
can format the styles any way you like, and you can add your own names to
the Heading 1, 2, 3 names if you like.

 

[Brian]

Instead of defining custom styles, why not use Word's built-in heading
styles, which are already linked to outline levels (especially in the
outline number format you selected). See
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/UseBuiltInHeadingStyles.html.
You
can format the styles any way you like, and you can add your own names to
the Heading 1, 2, 3 names if you like.

Because I'm setting this up as a starter file within a larger application
into which my app's users will often end up pasting bits of content from
lots of other documents. Not being Word experts, they will tend to not
think deeply about how to paste so as not to mess up the styles in the
document. Thus, to reduce the trashing of my carefully crafted Styles, I
want them to NOT have the standard names. If I use Heading 1, 2, 3... they
will be toast in no time.

After a dozen more failed experiments, I finally found the secret
incantation to get this to work...

The secret was, contrary to Shauna Kelly's document, you need to build the
List Template while editing the bottommost Style in your hierarchy, NOT the
topmost. Whenever I used the topmost, it would shuffle it down one level...
such that I'd end up with two levels pointing to the same style, and the
style below the one I chose to edit not being used. Once I saw the pattern,
I figured it couldn't do that if I chose the bottommost one... there'd be
nothing below it to screw up.

Now, in Shauna's case, she wasn't trying to setup the topmost one having no
numbering. I think Word might have a bug where it takes the top style and
tries to apply the first numbers it encounters, even if they are at a lower
level. And that ends up causing the goofy partial shuffling down the tree
that I was seeing.

It may also be important that the styles you use are defined on top of the
one higher each time... not sure... once I got it to work, I wasn't about to
risk disturbing things. I locked that puppy down.

Anyway, thanks for the help, the various documents suggested were certainly
helpful in narrowing down from hundreds of things to try to about a dozen!

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

If you have set up the Heading styles correctly, then when you paste in text
formatted with those styles by other users, they will take on your
formatting. Alternatively, you can paste as Unformatted Text.

 

[Charles Kenyon]

When they paste into your documents, your formatting will control the style
definition.
--
Charles Kenyon

Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word

Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of
Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide




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[Brian]

If you have set up the Heading styles correctly, then when you paste in
text
formatted with those styles by other users, they will take on your
formatting.

<chuckle> You two say that like such behavior is so reliable! Not in my
experience.

But actually, more to the point, my numbering styles are not logically
"headings" of chapters, parts, or paragraphs as is intended for the Heading
1-9 styles. My template is designed for a one- to two-page document. Only
"My Heading" is intended as a heading, and it doesn't really use
numbering... it just serves to break up the numbering. The "My Numbered
1-3" styles are just intended for lists.

For example, a My Heading might be "Alternatives", and the content of that
segment of the page might be a numbered list, using style My Numbered 1.
The next segment might have My Heading "Procedure", and it would list the
steps out, starting again from #1, using the My Numbered 1 style. If it
needs some sub-steps nested under the major steps, then it might also use My
Numbered 2 style.

People often cut n paste from various sources into our documents. Very
rarely, if ever, will they want to map their Heading 1 to My Heading. And
almost never will they want to map their Heading 2 to My Numbered 1. They
might want to map some of the Heading 3 and some of their Heading 4 to My
Heading, but typically not. Our documents use certain standardized
headings, and they'll map their content to be inside one of the existing
headings. But almost never will any of their Headings go to my Numbered's.
They are used for fundamentally different purposes.

So, any sort of auto-mapping by my templates of their Headings to my
Numbered styles would be seen by my users as obnoxious. They want me to
leave their existing styling alone OR they want to paste in unformatted.
They do NOT want me auto-converting.

Soooo, it is best if my style names are unique, unlikely to match the style
names of paragraphs being pasted in. So, the standard names are certainly a
poor choice.


But, as noted in a different note, I do have this working now... with a few
bizarro caveats (there's more inexplicable behavior from Word being
exhibited that I cannot even begin to describe accurately). So, thanks for
all the feedback!

But I will stick with my assertion in the subject of this thread! ;^)

Brian

 

[Charles Kenyon]

So, any sort of auto-mapping by my templates of their Headings to my

Numbered styles would be seen by my users as obnoxious. They want me to
leave their existing styling alone OR they want to paste in unformatted.
They do NOT want me auto-converting.

Soooo, it is best if my style names are unique, unlikely to match the
style names of paragraphs being pasted in. So, the standard names are
certainly a poor choice.

Nope, it is best if you supply a template that has your numbering scheme
attached to the built-in heading styles. You can give those styles
additional names. You can use Heading 6 - Heading 9 for your headings if you
want.


Numbering in Word _is_ complex. The seemingly simple methods are broken.
Here are some old discussions that were put together a while back.

Nightmare on ListNumbering Street <URL:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=9e790fa7ed2886b3,18&ic=1>
The Joy of Lists <URL:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=811287ebce8fc203,15&ic=1>
Relinking ListTemplates <URL:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=2350746054c838e,12&ic=1>
Outline numbering: restart doesn't restart <URL:
http://groups.google.com/[email protected]#p>
Format Doesn't "Hold" <URL:
http://groups.google.com/[email protected]#p>
(above list compiled by Dave Rado, Word MVP)

ListNumbering Street Revisited
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&th=57df77857e4993ce

--
Charles Kenyon

Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word

Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of
Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide




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[Brian]

Numbering in Word _is_ complex. The seemingly simple methods are broken.
Here are some old discussions that were put together a while back.

Wow! Thanks for those. I had no idea how broken Word is... I know the UI
sucks, but I didn't know attempts to force it to work could so easily result
in Word crashing. (And Word's been crashing a lot lately, so I am worried.)

BTW, many of these threads are from 2000! MS has known about these bugs for
years! I am amazed that mighty Microsoft hasn't been able to overhaul
something that should be relatively straight-forward in all these years.
Sad.

Nope, it is best if you supply a template that has your numbering scheme
attached to the built-in heading styles. You can give those styles
additional names. You can use Heading 6 - Heading 9 for your headings if
you want.

So, your conclusion from all those threads is that numbering with anything
other than the magical Heading styles is doomed to failure?

Are there known issues with Word crashing due to usage of numbering with
other than Headings? Certain things that consistently fail? Or just a
general trend that all attempts with other than standard Headings never seem
to work out?

Maybe I should tell my users to just hand-number everything, because Word
numbering is wholly unreliable. However, so far, my three numbered styles
are performing well in testing.

BTW, is there an easy way to purge all List Templates that are NOT in a
gallery slot out of a document? After reading all these horror stories, I'd
like to clean up my master template.

Thanks,

Brian

 

[Charles Kenyon]

It is something that is apparently in the core program and not easily fixed.
I don't know whether Word 2007 will be any better.
--
Charles Kenyon

Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word

Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of
Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide




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[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Numbering was one of the areas of concentration for Word 2007; whether it
got pushed aside in favor of the new UI remains to be seen.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Paragraphs don't have to be headings to use heading styles. If you prefer,
you could equally well use the List Number styles. But if you're creating
custom styles with names like My Heading, you can't blame us for assuming
they're headings. The main thing is that they need to be properly linked to
a correctly set up outline list.

 

[Jonathan West]

Wow! Thanks for those. I had no idea how broken Word is... I know the UI
sucks, but I didn't know attempts to force it to work could so easily
result in Word crashing. (And Word's been crashing a lot lately, so I am
worried.)

It's not the UI that is the problem, but the fact that they made some
fundamental design flaws in the document structure with regard to numbering,
back in Office 97. Unfortunately, having introduced those design flaws, it
is almost impossible for them to change the document structure without
causing severe compatibility problems when opening Word documents in
different versions, so they have been (rightly in my view) very hesitant to
make such changes. Instead, they have been trying progressively to apply
sticking-plaster solutions onto the UI in every version since to hide the
underlying structural fault. Their success is, as you can see, somewhat
limited...

AFAIK, the same underlying structure is still in Word 2007, but I haven't
yet had time to see if they have done anything to make it work more
consistently.


--
Regards
Jonathan West - Word MVP
www.intelligentdocuments.co.uk
Please reply to the newsgroup
Keep your VBA code safe, sign the ClassicVB petition www.classicvb.org

 

[Brian]

Paragraphs don't have to be headings to use heading styles. If you prefer,
you could equally well use the List Number styles. But if you're creating
custom styles with names like My Heading, you can't blame us for assuming
they're headings. The main thing is that they need to be properly linked
to
a correctly set up outline list.

Sorry... "My Heading" is indeed a Heading... but it rarely corresponds to
the Headings in external documents. And "My Heading" isn't numbered... but
I've included it as level 1 in my outline list in order to restart numbering
in my lists. My list styles are named "My Numbered 1", "My Numbered 2", and
"My Numbered 3". Three levels for a numbered list. I also have "My
Bulleted 1" and so on for three levels of bulleted lists.

Both of those lists were nightmarish to get setup. But with all of your
help, I seem to have them working.

My situation has some odd circumstances that I think will help me have fewer
problems. I'd like to run it by you guys... see what you think...

We are using Office 2003's XML format (rather than the old binary format).
We don't really save the whole Word document... we just save the contents of
the "entire document" XML tag... plus some of the section settings (along
with some other data into a SQL Server database). When opened, that saved
contents gets reinserted into a document freshly generated from the template
each time.

So, I think stray List Templates generated by users naively using the
Numbering Formatting dialog will get stripped away quite consistently.
True? Or are they encoding those List Templates in the main body's tags
somehow?

So, rather than musical chairs over time, my users will experience instant
numbering cleanup when they save (we save and then reload the doc, so they
can see what they really saved).

However, based on my experience, I think there's some List Template State
that also lives in the running executable, not the file. Thus, there may be
some unclean stuff that won't go away until they restart our app and MS
Word. Not sure... but it sure feels like there's some cruft that transcends
documents. (not sure I should use that term in reference to Word)

Anyway, I'm hoping things continue to work... though I suspect I've just
been lucky so far... and the luck will hold out until next week when I
install at a different site.


Brian

 

[Cindy M -WordMVP-]

Hi Brian,

We are using Office 2003's XML format (rather than the old binary format).
We don't really save the whole Word document... we just save the contents of
the "entire document" XML tag... plus some of the section settings (along
with some other data into a SQL Server database). When opened, that saved
contents gets reinserted into a document freshly generated from the template
each time.

So, I think stray List Templates generated by users naively using the
Numbering Formatting dialog will get stripped away quite consistently.
True? Or are they encoding those List Templates in the main body's tags
somehow?

The list templates should be in the information just preceding the <body> tag.
Near where the styles are kept. I'm not sure what you mean by the "entire
document" tag...

So, rather than musical chairs over time, my users will experience instant
numbering cleanup when they save (we save and then reload the doc, so they
can see what they really saved).

However, based on my experience, I think there's some List Template State
that also lives in the running executable, not the file. Thus, there may be
some unclean stuff that won't go away until they restart our app and MS
Word. Not sure... but it sure feels like there's some cruft that transcends
documents. (not sure I should use that term in reference to Word)

The GALLERIES are stored in the Registry HKCU. From my cursory scans of this
thread, I think that's one of the obstacles you've been struggling with. Best
is if you can avoid using the Galleries (Bullets and Numbering previews)
totally.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 17 2005)
http://www.word.mvps.org

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