Type 2 crashes

[Will Mowat]

iBook OS 9.2.2 Word 2001. I'm having major problems preventing me from
working. The doc is a large (10MB) text doc with all kinds of photos and
things embedded in it. The problem is that Word is frequently quitting with
the Type 2 error. Sometimes I can get Word to run with the doc if I try to
start it several times, whereupon it continues a bit longer before quitting
again. Restarting the iBook makes no difference, nor does clearing the PRAM.
Thinking it might be lack of program memory I have increased Word's memory
to 40,960 (!), but it makes no difference. One possible clue is that Word is
not very happy if it has to reorganise its pages and footers as a result of
text being inserted and moving everything down (red herring?). Anyway, (1)
can some angel help out here? (2) can someone give me a brief explanation as
what this application memory does and how we are supposed to know what to
set it at? Thank you. Will.

 

[JE McGimpsey]

iBook OS 9.2.2 Word 2001. I'm having major problems preventing me from
working. The doc is a large (10MB) text doc with all kinds of photos and
things embedded in it. The problem is that Word is frequently quitting with
the Type 2 error. Sometimes I can get Word to run with the doc if I try to
start it several times, whereupon it continues a bit longer before quitting
again. Restarting the iBook makes no difference, nor does clearing the PRAM.
Thinking it might be lack of program memory I have increased Word's memory
to 40,960 (!), but it makes no difference. One possible clue is that Word is
not very happy if it has to reorganise its pages and footers as a result of
text being inserted and moving everything down (red herring?). Anyway, (1)
can some angel help out here? (2) can someone give me a brief explanation as
what this application memory does and how we are supposed to know what to
set it at? Thank you. Will.

the "minimum" setting is the amount that the OS should reserve to keep
the core bits of the application in memory. The "preferred" memory
setting asks for more memory to allow the app to work efficiently.

When Virtual Memory is enabled and an app is opened, the OS gives the
app as much memory as possible, up to the "preferred" setting. The
available memory will depend (obviously) on the installed RAM and VM
settings, as well as any other applications running. If the desired RAM
is not available, the OS looks for apps that have allocations above
their minimum settings, and swaps out the balance to the hard disk
(swapping it back in when that app is activated). The OS can't swap the
minimum amount, though, so if that's set too high, it will prevent other
apps from using that memory, which is why you should leave "minimum"
settings alone.

40MB sounds like a lot, but when you've take both pictures and the fact
that the printer drivers have to be loaded into application space into
account, it may be cramping Word. If you have the memory available, set
the preferred setting to 48MB (the amount I used to use for everyday
use), 64MB or even 128MB.

 

[Clive Huggan]

the "minimum" setting is the amount that the OS should reserve to keep
the core bits of the application in memory. The "preferred" memory
setting asks for more memory to allow the app to work efficiently.

When Virtual Memory is enabled and an app is opened, the OS gives the
app as much memory as possible, up to the "preferred" setting. The
available memory will depend (obviously) on the installed RAM and VM
settings, as well as any other applications running. If the desired RAM
is not available, the OS looks for apps that have allocations above
their minimum settings, and swaps out the balance to the hard disk
(swapping it back in when that app is activated). The OS can't swap the
minimum amount, though, so if that's set too high, it will prevent other
apps from using that memory, which is why you should leave "minimum"
settings alone.

40MB sounds like a lot, but when you've take both pictures and the fact
that the printer drivers have to be loaded into application space into
account, it may be cramping Word. If you have the memory available, set
the preferred setting to 48MB (the amount I used to use for everyday
use), 64MB or even 128MB.

Just to add to J.E.'s spot-on advice, Will: on pages 26-27 of the notes on
the way I use Word, called "Bend Word to your Will", at
http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/WordMac/Bend/BendWord.htm, there are a few more
adjustments to get the most stability out of Word 2001. But J.E. has covered
the main factor, given that Type 2 is a memory error, and FWIW I completely
concur with him -- especially for a 10 MB document.


-- Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
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============================================================

 

[Will Mowat]

Dear JE, Thank you so much for the explanation. I never have Virtual Memory
enabled: am I right in thinking it's a throw-back to when RAM was expensive
so people used the hard disk as a cheat? Surely there's no reason to use it
now (my RAM is 384 MB)?
In the end an Expert said Word's instability with heavy docs is known and
advised me to chop my one into segments. What does anyone reckon? Thank you.
Will.

McGimpsey at (e-mail address removed) wrote on 20/2/04 17:22:

 

[Paul Berkowitz]

Since OS 8.5 or so, and especially in OS 9, you should have Virtual Memory
enabled to 1 MB more than physical memory.

--
Paul Berkowitz
MVP Entourage
Entourage FAQ Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/toc.html>
AppleScripts for Entourage: <http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/>

Please "Reply To Newsgroup" to reply to this message. Emails will be
ignored.

PLEASE always state which version of Entourage you are using - 2001 or X.
It's often impossible to answer your questions otherwise.

 

[Clive Huggan]

Will,

I'm not sure about whether or not virtual memory is "a throw-back to when
RAM was expensive so people used the hard disk as a cheat", but I do know
that modern software such as Word relies heavily on it -- in other words,
turn it off and you're asking for major trouble, sooner or later. And as
Paul said: especially in OS 9, you should have Virtual Memory enabled to 1
MB more than physical memory. Also important: keep the memory setting for
"minimum" at 7000 k.

Word is stated by Microsoft to be able to handle file sizes of 32 MB of text
(i.e., plus graphics on top of that), so your 10 MB total is nowhere near
that maximum. Having said that, you will see some slowing down with bigger
file sizes. Whether you separate the document into smaller pieces depends on
whether the speed bothers you, whether most of your formatting is by styles
(= more stable than direct formatting in large docs), and how often you need
to piece the doc back together. But don't use Master Documents to manage a
split document (do a Google newsgroup search for this term and you'll see
what I mean, if you're tempted).

In OS 9.2.2 with Word 2001 I therefore prefer to feed the beast lots of RAM
-- working with long documents most of the time, I have 80 MB of RAM
allocated in the context of 512 MB of installed RAM. With a 10 MB file I'd
be allocating 120 MB. Whether you could allocate that depends on what other
software you operate, of course.

A few of the tips I give in the reference I quoted (pages 26-27 of "Bend
Word to your Will") are highly relevant to speed and stability of long docs
in OS 9, too.

All this is irrelevant in OS X, which has a different memory management
set-up.

Cheers,


-- Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
============================================================

Since OS 8.5 or so, and especially in OS 9, you should have Virtual Memory
enabled to 1 MB more than physical memory.

--
Paul Berkowitz
MVP Entourage
Entourage FAQ Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/toc.html>
AppleScripts for Entourage: <http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/>

Please "Reply To Newsgroup" to reply to this message. Emails will be
ignored.

PLEASE always state which version of Entourage you are using - 2001 or X.
It's often impossible to answer your questions otherwise.

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word]]

Hi Will:

Word will hang with you up to around 5,500 pages in a single document,
depending on what is in the document. But it becomes quite voracious for
memory and CPU cycles when it is working that hard.

You may find that 250 pages in a single file is a practical upper limit, but
a lot depends on the speed and power of your hardware: I run over that
regularly: I tend to lose patience around a thousand pages.

However, Paul is correct: Word is a modern application: it expects Virtual
Memory to be there, and tends to crash a lot if it isn't.

On OS 9, you have to allocate the "running" memory for applications by hand.
If you do not allocate enough, Word will draw more from the system when it
needs it, if it can get it. If it can't get the memory it wants, Word will
ask for Virtual Memory. If there is no virtual memory, Word usually crashes
at that point.

For minimum documents (memos) allocate 15 MB. For normal corporate work,
try 48 MB. For serious documents try 96. For the stuff I do: 180 MB is
good

Cheers

Dear JE, Thank you so much for the explanation. I never have Virtual Memory
enabled: am I right in thinking it's a throw-back to when RAM was expensive
so people used the hard disk as a cheat? Surely there's no reason to use it
now (my RAM is 384 MB)?
In the end an Expert said Word's instability with heavy docs is known and
advised me to chop my one into segments. What does anyone reckon? Thank you.
Will.

McGimpsey at (e-mail address removed) wrote on 20/2/04 17:22:

--

Please respond only to the newsgroup to preserve the thread.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]