Using project as an outline

[jtpryan]

In the early stages of a project I wanted to use Project as sort of an
initial planning aid and outline things I wanted to do. So, I wanted
to do something like:

Task1
do this
do this
do this

Task 2
do this
do this
do this

Then mark Task 1 and Task 2 as milestones with the underlying things
under each as stuff that needs to get done to meet this milestone.

OK, so I have 2 problems. First, even though I mark the Task x lines
as milestones, they never pick up the font and color of milestones I
have defined if they have the "stuff to do" items listed below.
Second, lets say I expect Task x to take a day and in that day I want
to do the things listed below, well if I put 1 day next to each item
it appears that each one will take a day by itself and that doing 3 as
above will take 3 days.

I can't seem to find a logical way to do this, and obviously I am very
new to Project so maybe I'm using the wrong tool for the job, but it
seems as though I should be able to accomplish this.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Jim

 

[jtpryan]

You need to adjust your concepts.
Your Task 1 and Task 2 are Summaries, or headings.
Your "do this" is a Task.
The headings and sub-headings are not the milestones.
The milestone should come after the Tasks ("do this").
They are the predecessors of the milestone.

 Summary 1
     do this
     do this
     do this
                milestone 1
 Summary 2
    do this
    do this
    do this
                milestone 2

Not that I think you really do want/need a diamond where a Summary Bar
should be, but the reason that the Summary bar does not collapse to a
diamond is because of the order that they appear in the list of Bar Styles.
MSP reads the Bar Styles down the list, and anything lower down, in this
case the Summary, over-writes any styles above.
--
Trevor Rabey
0407213955
61 8 92727485
PERFECT PROJECT PLANNINGwww.perfectproject.com.au













- Show quoted text -

Thank you. But I'm still confused. Let me show you what I have:

1. Pre-Engagement Milestones
1.1 Decide on supported platforms
1.2 Assess and decide Audit software
1.3 Assess and decide Encryption software
1.4 Assess per-seat costs
1.5 Education Document
1.5.1 General Information
1.5.2 What is the Law?
1.5.3 When must you Comply?
1.5.4 What are the consequences of non complience?

OK, in the task information I set 1.1-->1.5 as milestones (checked the
box). I then set it so that Milestones will show as a red font
color. 1.1-->1.4 all turn red. 1.5 does not. If I remove (or
outdent) 1.5.1-->1.5.4 then it will turn red. If I mark 1.5.1 as a
milestone it turns red. So my conclusion is I can't have anything
indented after a milestone or it no longer becomes a milestone, at
least as far as coloring goes, the box still stays checked. Why can't
a Milestone have things below it? I realize I need to adjust my
concepts, but this makes no sense to me.

-Jim

 

[Steve House]

Scuse me for jumping in, but as Trevor said, you need to adjust your
concepts. A task list is not a to-do list. It is a list of observable
physical activities that extend over a measureable time period. In your
task 1.5, for example you have a subtask "1.5.1: General Inmformation" but
what does that mean? More appropriately would be "1.5.1: Research
background information, duration 3 days" followed by "1.5.2: Meet with
attorney to review applicable law, duration 1 day". A good practice to help
you keep focused that tasks are observable actions done by people is to
start every task name with an action verb: DIG the hole, PAINT the wall,
WRITE the report, and so forth.

The headings and subheading down to the task level should describe
objectives based on the deliverables. Those deliverables start with the
overall project end-result dellverable and are decomposed down to the level
that you can describe the specific physical acitvities done by the resources
that create thos deliverables. A summary task is not a category of subtasks
such as you've listed them, where "...Milestones" is a category and the
subtasks are a list of the members of that category. Instead the summary is
a phase or module and at its end a deliverable or component has been
created, something has been learned, that sort of thing, that did not exist
before. A milestone is a checkpoint that marks the achievement of that
objective. But it's crucial to understand that a project plan is not a list
of milestones, it is a list of actions necessary to achieve those
milestones. The milestones themselves are just listed for convenience in
tracking progress and deadlines, frosting on the cake.

HTH

--
Steve House
MS Project Trainer & Consultant





Thank you. But I'm still confused. Let me show you what I have:

1. Pre-Engagement Milestones
1.1 Decide on supported platforms
1.2 Assess and decide Audit software
1.3 Assess and decide Encryption software
1.4 Assess per-seat costs
1.5 Education Document
1.5.1 General Information
1.5.2 What is the Law?
1.5.3 When must you Comply?
1.5.4 What are the consequences of non complience?

OK, in the task information I set 1.1-->1.5 as milestones (checked the
box). I then set it so that Milestones will show as a red font
color. 1.1-->1.4 all turn red. 1.5 does not. If I remove (or
outdent) 1.5.1-->1.5.4 then it will turn red. If I mark 1.5.1 as a
milestone it turns red. So my conclusion is I can't have anything
indented after a milestone or it no longer becomes a milestone, at
least as far as coloring goes, the box still stays checked. Why can't
a Milestone have things below it? I realize I need to adjust my
concepts, but this makes no sense to me.

-Jim

 

[jtpryan]

Scuse me for jumping in, but as Trevor said, you need to adjust your
concepts.  A task list is not a to-do list.  It is a list of observable
physical activities that extend over a measureable time period.  In your
task 1.5, for example you have a subtask "1.5.1: General Inmformation" but
what does that mean?  More appropriately would be "1.5.1: Research
background information, duration 3 days" followed by "1.5.2: Meet with
attorney to review applicable law, duration 1 day".  A good practice tohelp
you keep focused that tasks are observable actions done by people is to
start every task name with an action verb: DIG the hole, PAINT the wall,
WRITE the report, and so forth.

The headings and subheading down to the task level should describe
objectives based on the deliverables.  Those deliverables start with the
overall project end-result dellverable and are decomposed down to the level
that you can describe the specific physical acitvities done by the resources
that create thos deliverables.  A summary task is not a category of subtasks
such as you've listed them, where "...Milestones" is a category and the
subtasks are a list of the members of that category.  Instead the summary is
a phase or module and at its end a deliverable or component has been
created, something has been learned, that sort of thing, that did not exist
before.  A milestone is a checkpoint that marks the achievement of that
objective.  But it's crucial to understand that a project plan is not alist
of milestones, it is a list of actions necessary to achieve those
milestones.  The milestones themselves are just listed for convenience in
tracking progress and deadlines, frosting on the cake.

HTH

--
Steve House
MS Project Trainer & Consultant



Thank you.  But I'm still confused.  Let me show you what I have:

1. Pre-Engagement Milestones
     1.1 Decide on supported platforms
     1.2 Assess and decide Audit software
     1.3 Assess and decide Encryption software
     1.4 Assess per-seat costs
     1.5 Education Document
           1.5.1 General Information
           1.5.2 What is the Law?
           1.5.3 When must you Comply?
           1.5.4 What are the consequences of non complience?

OK, in the task information I set 1.1-->1.5 as milestones (checked the
box).  I then set it so that Milestones will show as a red font
color.  1.1-->1.4 all turn red.  1.5 does not.  If I remove (or
outdent) 1.5.1-->1.5.4 then it will turn red.  If I mark 1.5.1 as a
milestone it turns red.  So my conclusion is I can't have anything
indented after a milestone or it no longer becomes a milestone, at
least as far as coloring goes, the box still stays checked.  Why can't
a Milestone have things below it?  I realize I need to adjust my
concepts, but this makes no sense to me.

-Jim

Steve,

Thank you. I see what you mean. So, my "Education Document" would be
a deliverable. I suppose it could also be a milestone. I understand
this, but using this as an example, where would you put the outline or
contents of the the document itself? In other words if I sit down
with my boss or a client and I have this plan in front of us (printed)
and we get to this deliverable I would want to give them an idea of
what the document will containg, where would I put it? I know I could
but in in the task description, but then it isn't visible in a print
out. I could document it in Word or something, but then I'm tracking
things in 2 places, which seems cumbersome. How would you attack this
scenerio?

-Jim

 

[Steve House]

The milestone is a marker, like a milepost on the hiway, the marks the
completion of the deliverable.

The Project file is an outline of the WORK required to produce the
deliverables, organized by the breakdown deliverable the work creates into
its component parts. I suppose you could have the outline of the document
in the plan by having something like

1: Write Book Manuscript (deliverable: manuscript)
1.1 Develop Concept (deliverable: manuscript outline)
1.2 Write Chapter One (deliverable: finished chapter one)
1.2.1 Research Topic (deliverable: topic notes)
1.2.2 Develop Thesis (deliverable: chapter outline)
1.2.3 Write Chapter (deliverable: completed chapter)
1.3 Write Chapter Two
1.3.1 Research Topic
1.3.2 Develop Thesis
1.3.3 Write Chapter
..
..
..
1.10 Manuscript Finished (milestone)
2: Deliver Manuscript To Publisher
3: Review Galley Proofs
etc

As far as the actual document contents, in the sense that a statement such
as "The Nature of Light: As we consider the nature of light, we find that
it behaves as if it were simultaneously both a particle and a wave ..." is
content, that would not appear in the project plan at all. As fascinating
as that sentence may be, it does not describe work done by a resource
extending over an observable time period, nor does it describe a phase in
the overall series of things that must be done to prepare a document
outlining some physics research for publication and distribution.

You could, if you wished, add the chapter topic as part of the task name or
you could attach it as a task note. But make sure you keep focussed on the
idea that the task list is an outline of the work, NOT an outline of the
document.

Project is only one of a number of tools needed to manage a project. It
does some of the things you need to do but other tools do others.

--
Steve House
MS Project Trainer & Consultant



....
Steve,

Thank you. I see what you mean. So, my "Education Document" would be
a deliverable. I suppose it could also be a milestone. I understand
this, but using this as an example, where would you put the outline or
contents of the the document itself? In other words if I sit down
with my boss or a client and I have this plan in front of us (printed)
and we get to this deliverable I would want to give them an idea of
what the document will containg, where would I put it? I know I could
but in in the task description, but then it isn't visible in a print
out. I could document it in Word or something, but then I'm tracking
things in 2 places, which seems cumbersome. How would you attack this
scenerio?

-Jim

 

[jtpryan]

The milestone is a marker, like a milepost on the hiway, the marks the
completion of the deliverable.

The Project file is an outline of the WORK required to produce the
deliverables, organized by the breakdown deliverable the work creates into
its component parts.  I suppose you could have the outline of the document
in the plan by having something like

1: Write Book Manuscript (deliverable: manuscript)
    1.1 Develop Concept (deliverable: manuscript outline)
    1.2 Write Chapter One (deliverable: finished chapter one)
        1.2.1 Research Topic (deliverable: topic notes)
        1.2.2 Develop Thesis (deliverable: chapter outline)
        1.2.3 Write Chapter (deliverable: completed chapter)
    1.3 Write Chapter Two
        1.3.1 Research Topic
        1.3.2 Develop Thesis
        1.3.3 Write Chapter
.
.
.
    1.10 Manuscript Finished (milestone)
2: Deliver Manuscript To Publisher
3: Review Galley Proofs
etc

As far as the actual document contents, in the sense that a statement such
as "The Nature of Light:  As we consider the nature of light, we find that
it behaves as if it were simultaneously both a particle and a wave ..."  is
content, that would not appear in the project plan at all.  As fascinating
as that sentence may be, it does not describe work done by a resource
extending over an observable time period, nor does it describe a phase in
the overall series of things that must be done to prepare a document
outlining some physics research for publication and distribution.

You could, if you wished, add the chapter topic as part of the task name or
you could attach it as a task note.  But make sure you keep focussed onthe
idea that the task list is an outline of the work, NOT an outline of the
document.

Project is only one of a number of tools needed to manage a project.  It
does some of the things you need to do but other tools do others.

--
Steve House
MS Project Trainer & Consultant


...
Steve,

Thank you.  I see what you mean.  So, my "Education Document" would be
a deliverable.  I suppose it could also be a milestone.  I understand
this, but using this as an example, where would you put the outline or
contents of the the document itself?  In other words if I sit down
with my boss or a client and I have this plan in front of us (printed)
and we get to this deliverable I would want to give them an idea of
what the document will containg, where would I put it?  I know I could
but in in the task description, but then it isn't visible in a print
out.  I could document it in Word or something, but then I'm tracking
things in 2 places, which seems cumbersome.  How would you attack this
scenerio?

-Jim

I see your point. Perhaps I'm getting too hung up on it being an all
in one tool. In your example though the task "1: Write Book
Manuscript (deliverable: manuscript)" could not be a milestone
according to Project because it has sub-tasks, am I correct? I mean,
everytime I assign a sub task, then the format I assigned to
Milestones goes away. I realize this is a nit, but I just wanted to
see if I was doing something wrong.

Again, thank you for your help in this.

-Jim

 

[Steve House [MVP]]

....
I see your point. Perhaps I'm getting too hung up on it being an all
in one tool. In your example though the task "1: Write Book
Manuscript (deliverable: manuscript)" could not be a milestone
according to Project because it has sub-tasks, am I correct? I mean,
everytime I assign a sub task, then the format I assigned to
Milestones goes away. I realize this is a nit, but I just wanted to
see if I was doing something wrong.

Again, thank you for your help in this.

-Jim

Yes, you are correct. The "Write Book" is a summary task extending for the
length of time it takes to write it. At the end, you might choose to place
a milestone "Manuscript Complete" which is a single point in time that you
wish to monitor.