Various File Save error messages with Word 2004 and Tiger (10.4.2) Server

[Mark Gibson]

Hi,

One of my clients recently took delivery of some G5 iMacs (running
10.4.2 client) and copies of Office 2004.

They are all now having problems saving files to the 10.4.2 Server (G5
Xserve).

The error messages are various ("not enough memory", "too many files
open", lost connection" ...).

The people with older Macs running 10.3.9 and Office X (fully patched)
do not suffer these problems.

There are no file access permission issues that I know of (at least via
the "Workgroup Manager".

Also several macro's (including AutoText entries) which worked under
Office X no longer appear to do so.

1. Any suggestions for a work around / fix ?

2. If we back out to Office X (have at least one unused copy) how do I
convert the Entourage 2004 database files to work with Entourage X ?

 

[Beth Rosengard]

Hi Mark,

This is (unfortunately) a common problem. Something changed in Tiger that
causes this problem in Word. Both Apple and Microsoft are aware of the
problem and are looking for solutions. I would hope that an update will
address this issue soon!

In the meantime, there's a workaround that may help. This is from a
previous post by John McGhie:

------------------------
Check that your user home folder is not on the same server as a mounted
server.

If it is, when Word plays up, unmount your home folder. Word will then
complete the save.

It appears that in OS 10.4.2, the server locks a file in the user's home
folder TWICE, once along the home folder path, and again along the mounted
path. When Word tries to Save, the server rejects the write operation
because it reports that the file is locked for edit along the other path.

This will not apply to all users, and is more prevalent if the server is
mounted by SMB or AFB
-------------------------

I don't understand server issues myself, so hopefully this will make sense
to you. If not, John should be back here before long to give more details.

Also, some naming and permissions errors that prevent saving to a server are
related to Norton AntiVirus 10. These errors are solved by disabling NAV's
Auto-Protect as follows:

- Open Auto-Protect preferences (in System Preferences or from the
Norton QuickMenu icon on the Finder).
- Click Unlock to make changes.
- Click the SafeZones tab.
- Select the 'Scan Files: Everywhere EXCEPT in:' radio button.
- Click the Add button and add the mounted volume to the exceptions
list.

HTH

--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***

Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP

Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/index.htm>
(If using Safari, hit Refresh once or twice ­ or use another browser.)
Entourage Help Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org>

 

[Mark Gibson]

Beth,

Thanks but:

1. Don't use "Home" folders at all.

2. None of the machines run NAV.

Also any suggestions on the last part (i.e. backiing out to Entourage X
for Entourage 2004)?

 

[Beth Rosengard]

Beth,

Thanks but:

1. Don't use "Home" folders at all.

2. None of the machines run NAV.

Also any suggestions on the last part (i.e. backiing out to Entourage X
for Entourage 2004)?

I can't remember how this works but they'll know on the Entourage newsgroup:
microsoft.public.mac.office.entourage.

Sorry.

Beth

 

[Rob Daly [MSFT]]

Any of you machines running Virex?

--
Rob Daly
Macintosh Business Unit
Word Test

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Please do not send email directly to this e-mail address. It is for
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[Dave]

I have 5 tiger clients and 1 tiger server with one mac os 9 client and
have all the same symptoms as all of you. I do not use anti virus of
any brand. We do not use home folder. The problem never occurs on the
OS 9 client.

I must have a solution to avoid these errors. Do I have to convert
everybody to appleworks?

Do I take everybody back to office X?

Do I have to revert back to Operating systems prior to Tiger including
the server?

Does anybody have a fix for this? Doing nothing and just waiting for
Apple or Microsoft to come up with a solution does not seems to be a
prudent options don't you agree.

David Raymond
Apple Value Added Reseller
Las Vegas, NV

 

[nickb]

Dave

This has been discussed quite a bit here and on the server forums and
there are a number of suggestions floating around.

I don't run NAV or any of the other apps that supposedly cause
problems. For me it was definitely the fact that home folders were
stored on the server (specifically via AFP). You said you don't use
home folders, by which I assume you mean you don't use *networked* home
folders. MS programmes store various files in users' home folders and
specifically the autorecover files appear to be a problem if they are
on networked home folder. I'd double check in Server Admin that you
aren't creating home folders for users as for most people that is
standard.

Anyway, I do not get any of the errors any more after creating a folder
on each client computer -- on the hard disk -- for Word's autorecover
files. Change in each user's preferences the file location for
autorecover files to this folder.

Hope this helps

Nick

 

[Rob Daly [MSFT]]

Okay, so let me get the details straight from what Dave and Mark Gibson have
said so far.

1. Clients are all running 10.4.2 (or at least tiger)
2. The Clients are set up to save to a server share, the server is running
10.4.x
3. You are NOT running remote home folders

So this is all the info I can garner from the mails thusfar. What I need to
know is the following:
1. How do you save to the server?
i.e. Through AFP, SMB, HTTP, FTP, etc
Do you simply mount it in the finder; do the client images
automount?
2. What have you tried to get around the problem
Is word ever able to save, if you mount a non tiger server share can it
save, can it save locally, etc
3. Please type up the exact steps to reproduce including EVERYTHING from
turning on the machine
4. How is the server configured - simply workgroup accounts for all users -
do those accounts have any shared folders assigned to them that get mounted
when the user logs in?

Please send me this info and I will try to help with your problem. We are
currently trying to get to the bottom of this and the remote home folders
issues. This all started to happen with 10.4.x so it's likely that Apple
have changed something that affects Word. Apple have not been able to
pinpoint what it is they could have changed that affects us, so we are
trying to get to the bottom of this (blindly) by attempting to reproduce
this in-house (which we have had limited success with) so every single tiny
detail is important.

Thanks,


--
Rob Daly
Macintosh Business Unit
Word Test

--
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Please do not send email directly to this e-mail address. It is for
newsgroup purposes only.

Find out everything about Microsoft Mac Newsgroups at:
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/community/community.aspx?pid=newsgroups
Check out product updates and news & info at:
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[Auction]

I have a similar problem. I cannot save Office files to Home Directories on
a Windows 2003 Server. I know that the permissions are correct based on
other programs and I can save .rtf files from Word. All of the clients are
running 10.4.2, Office 2004 SP2, and we are using the active directory
plug-in. All of the non Office 2004 applications work fine.

I'm willing to provide any details or assistance necessary to resolve the
problem. If I set up the mobile account features all is fine and all the
Office 2004 file sync just fine. The use of Home directories is to insure
all user files are backed up nightly.

Perry Cadman

 

[Keith Obermeier]

Rob,

I've been having problems saving Office files on my network as well. I have
about 2000
users using about 180 Macs with homes on a Win2K server hosted via
ExtremeZ-IP. I do not experience the problem if I mount the home via SMB.

I have a packet capture of the problem, with a movie file of the screen
capture while I'm recording the network capture.

I've been working with GroupLogic (Extreme Z-IP publisher) to try to resolve
this.

Are there improvements in Office 2K4 SP2 that fix this?

Are there improvements in SP2 that address the creation of 18 MB database
files on homedirs in Word, PowerPoint and Excel when Entourage is not
planned to be used? (--this is a significant problem using Office
wirelessly with networked homedirs)

May I send you my packet capture (about 8 MB zip file) to assist you with
your troubleshooting?

 

[tjneale]

My users cannot properly save files from Word 2004 to their hom
folders. After a new document has been saved the first time, an
further attempt to save it results in the error message: "Word canno
save this file because it is already open elsewhere."

The file is NOT in use by any other user or application. It looks lik
a permissions or path problem. If I explicitly set Word > Preferences
File Locations > Documents to be the user's Home of Documents folder (o
the share), saving appears to work properly. It is NOT a viabl
solution to have 800 networked users explicity set that preference!

My setup is this:
- Mac OS X Server 10.4.2 with home folders on a shared and networ
mounted via AFP

- Clients are running Mac OS 10.4.2 and MS Office 2004 (with SP
installed)

- User accounts are created and managed using MacManager on the server

- We do not have NAV, Virex or any other antivirus program running o
any clients, at this time

If anyone has seen this version of the problem and has a solutio
please let me know! I've got hundereds of students chomping a the bi
to use this.

Thanks,
Tom Neal

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]]

Hi Tom and Keith:


No. Nobody has a fix to the problem yet.

Apple is working on it. It affects only Tiger.

The issue appears to be caused because OS 10.4 internally creates TWO paths
to a file, then errors trying to save along one path because access along
the other is locked by the first save attempt.

The only reliable "fix" appears to be to NOT use network home directories.
In Tom's case, sending 800 emails advising users how to correctly set their
Word Preferences would appear to be an easy (albeit suboptimal) way out of
it.

Sorry guys: I believe we're still waiting on Apple for this one.

Cheers

My users cannot properly save files from Word 2004 to their home
folders. After a new document has been saved the first time, any
further attempt to save it results in the error message: "Word cannot
save this file because it is already open elsewhere."

The file is NOT in use by any other user or application. It looks like
a permissions or path problem. If I explicitly set Word > Preferences >
File Locations > Documents to be the user's Home of Documents folder (on
the share), saving appears to work properly. It is NOT a viable
solution to have 800 networked users explicity set that preference!

My setup is this:
- Mac OS X Server 10.4.2 with home folders on a shared and network
mounted via AFP

- Clients are running Mac OS 10.4.2 and MS Office 2004 (with SP2
installed)

- User accounts are created and managed using MacManager on the server

- We do not have NAV, Virex or any other antivirus program running on
any clients, at this time

If anyone has seen this version of the problem and has a solution
please let me know! I've got hundereds of students chomping a the bit
to use this.

Thanks,
Tom Neale

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[chad.dragonlord]

I work for a public school district. We have some workstations running
OS X 10.4.2 that are bound to a windows 2000 Active Directory domain.
The users login on these workstations with Active Directory accounts
that map their home directories to a network share on the windows
server. The issue we are experiencing is with Office 2004 for
Macintosh standard edition that is installed locally on the
workstation. When a network user logs in and creates or modifies an
Office document and attempts to save the file they get an error message
that says "The disk is full or too many files are open". Other
applications can save into this home directory without a problem. A
local user who logs in to the computer and runs the Office 2004
application can save just fine (locally of course).

Here are some more interesting symptoms we've discovered. We have
another lab on the same network that uses OSX 10.3.9 on the
workstations and they work just fine with Office 2004 and Windows
Active Directory. In the lab with OSX 10.4.2 workstations we tried
installing Office X for Mac instead, as a test, and that works just
fine. We also have another school that has OSX 10.4.2 clients running
Office 2004 for Mac but log in to an Apple OSX 10.3.9 server for their
home directories. They work just fine too.

So the issue only occurs with a configuration using all of the three
variables below:
1. OS X 10.4.2 installed on the workstation.
2. Home directories are mapped to a Windows 2000 Active Directory
server.
3. Office 2004 for Mac standard edition application.

If you change any of the above three variables the issue goes away.
Does anybody know what is going on? Has anyone seen this happen
before?

 

[chad.dragonlord]

I work for a public school district. We have some workstations running
OS X 10.4.2 that are bound to a windows 2000 Active Directory domain.
The users login on these workstations with Active Directory accounts
that map their home directories to a network share on the windows
server. The issue we are experiencing is with Office 2004 for
Macintosh standard edition that is installed locally on the
workstation. When a network user logs in and creates or modifies an
Office document and attempts to save the file they get an error message
that says "The disk is full or too many files are open". Other
applications can save into this home directory without a problem. A
local user who logs in to the computer and runs the Office 2004
application can save just fine (locally of course).

Here are some more interesting symptoms we've discovered. We have
another lab on the same network that uses OSX 10.3.9 on the
workstations and they work just fine with Office 2004 and Windows
Active Directory. In the lab with OSX 10.4.2 workstations we tried
installing Office X for Mac instead, as a test, and that works just
fine. We also have another school that has OSX 10.4.2 clients running
Office 2004 for Mac but log in to an Apple OSX 10.3.9 server for their
home directories. They work just fine too.

So the issue only occurs with a configuration using all of the three
variables below:
1. OS X 10.4.2 installed on the workstation.
2. Home directories are mapped to a Windows 2000 Active Directory
server.
3. Office 2004 for Mac standard edition application.

If you change any of the above three variables the issue goes away.
Does anybody know what is going on? Has anyone seen this happen
before?

 

[Solidusys]

We were noticing the exact same problem as the originator of thi
thread. We have a newly installed iMac G5 (10.4.2) with an OS X Serve
(10.3.9) used simply as a file server. The iMac user logs in wit
locally and connects to a server sharepoint.

We can reproduce the error consistently by:

- Create 9 columns of data (say with your name)
- Replicate this 9 column row 2,000 times
- Save the file to a sharepoint on the Mac OS X Server (10.3.9)
- Quit Excel
- Start Excel
- Open the recently saved file
- Add a row of data to the spreadsheet
- Attempt a save (command-S)
- Watch the spinning pinwheel until we receive the message: "Save no
completed. File rename failed. Retry?"
- Any attempt to continue results in the same message.

Quite a productivity tool, eh?

After many hours with Microsoft Support, we were invited to spend $22
with Pro-support to have the issue looked into further. Well, afte
reading this thread I found the issue mentioned regarding NAV. I
turning our Server sharepoint into a safezone, this seems to have fixe
the problem. Time will tell if this holds true.

I wish to thank those contributors to this thread as this is a VERY HO
ISSUE! Thanks again to all

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]]

Hi Chad:

Yes, we have seen this before repeatedly. Unfortunately, Microsoft has so
far not been able to get it to reproduce in the test lab reliably enough to
see exactly what is failing.

In your case, the first thing I would try is look in the Finder for the
computer that is failing. If you see the same server volume mounted more
than once, or with differing capitalisation of any of the letters in the
path, that is one thing that seems to cause it.

Often, it's caused because the user's Home folder and their Working folder
are on the same volume. Both are mounted at login. Unmounting one instance
will enable the Save to complete.

As mentioned by Solidusys. Norton AntiVirus will also cause it. The issue
occurs only on OS 10.4.x

Hope this helps

I work for a public school district. We have some workstations running
OS X 10.4.2 that are bound to a windows 2000 Active Directory domain.
The users login on these workstations with Active Directory accounts
that map their home directories to a network share on the windows
server. The issue we are experiencing is with Office 2004 for
Macintosh standard edition that is installed locally on the
workstation. When a network user logs in and creates or modifies an
Office document and attempts to save the file they get an error message
that says "The disk is full or too many files are open". Other
applications can save into this home directory without a problem. A
local user who logs in to the computer and runs the Office 2004
application can save just fine (locally of course).

Here are some more interesting symptoms we've discovered. We have
another lab on the same network that uses OSX 10.3.9 on the
workstations and they work just fine with Office 2004 and Windows
Active Directory. In the lab with OSX 10.4.2 workstations we tried
installing Office X for Mac instead, as a test, and that works just
fine. We also have another school that has OSX 10.4.2 clients running
Office 2004 for Mac but log in to an Apple OSX 10.3.9 server for their
home directories. They work just fine too.

So the issue only occurs with a configuration using all of the three
variables below:
1. OS X 10.4.2 installed on the workstation.
2. Home directories are mapped to a Windows 2000 Active Directory
server.
3. Office 2004 for Mac standard edition application.

If you change any of the above three variables the issue goes away.
Does anybody know what is going on? Has anyone seen this happen
before?

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]]

Thanks. I think....

We thought we had a handle on this issue, and that it affected only Word and
only in Tiger.

Now you've done it in Excel too, so you've shattered our dreams and we're
back to the drawing board. Thanks a bunch!!!

Actually: This is great: it's the first report I have seen from Excel, and
I have sent it in to the developers who are working on the issue...

Cheers

We were noticing the exact same problem as the originator of this
thread. We have a newly installed iMac G5 (10.4.2) with an OS X Server
(10.3.9) used simply as a file server. The iMac user logs in with
locally and connects to a server sharepoint.

We can reproduce the error consistently by:

- Create 9 columns of data (say with your name)
- Replicate this 9 column row 2,000 times
- Save the file to a sharepoint on the Mac OS X Server (10.3.9)
- Quit Excel
- Start Excel
- Open the recently saved file
- Add a row of data to the spreadsheet
- Attempt a save (command-S)
- Watch the spinning pinwheel until we receive the message: "Save not
completed. File rename failed. Retry?"
- Any attempt to continue results in the same message.

Quite a productivity tool, eh?

After many hours with Microsoft Support, we were invited to spend $225
with Pro-support to have the issue looked into further. Well, after
reading this thread I found the issue mentioned regarding NAV. In
turning our Server sharepoint into a safezone, this seems to have fixed
the problem. Time will tell if this holds true.

I wish to thank those contributors to this thread as this is a VERY HOT
ISSUE! Thanks again to all!

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

 

[Solidusys]

Thanks John,

In migrating to Tiger, we have disabled NAV 10.0 Auto-protect on Tige
clients for our server connected sharepoint(s). As noted in thi
thread, there are still Word (and potentially Excel, et al.) issues.
We do experience intermittent problems with what is now our one an
only Office 2004 user.

I'm sorry I don't have more specifics about an intermittent Word 200
issue. Our user of Office 2004 reports that intermittently, sav
operations can not occur: a network error is reported. I will provid
exact verbage later when available.

The configuration is:
iMac G5 (Tiger 10.4.2)
Office 2004

Server config:
Mac OS X Server G5 RAID (10.3.9)
Client connected only via sharepoint.

Problem: Intermittently, an editted file can not be saved.

Workaround: is to save file under a different name.
IMPORTANT NOTE: In order for this workaround to work, the file must b
saved AND THEN WORD MUST BE QUIT. Repeat, we must 1st quit Word 200
and then we can edit the saved file and continue as expected (n
further problem editing the newly saved file). Go figure . . .

This is quite a different scenario than that demonstrated with Excel a
I noted before. I thought I would provide this small scenario to wha
must be a growing mix provided to developers. Thanks very much fo
your assistance in collecting and disseminating assistance to th
community!!!

Regards, Jim B

 

[ericlouis]

Hi Office 2004 happy users,

Here, we are running on Panther (10.3.9) and Tiger (10.4.2).
Home users on the server (Xserve) runing 10.4.x server.
Office 2004 SP1 and SP2.
Running also Virex 7.7 on all clients machines.

Word is the bad boy here, "error messages with auto-save", "can't save
the same file because it is already in use".

Do you have any advice of what would be a good way to solve these
problems ?
Because it is giving headache to my customer and me

Thanks

Quite interesting post !

 

[Keith Obermeier]

OK folks,

I've been quiet for a few weeks, waiting for 10.4.3 and Microsoft patches

Hi Tom and Keith:


No. Nobody has a fix to the problem yet.

Apple is working on it. It affects only Tiger.

Now both Apple and Microsoft have had maintenance releases with no solution
to the problem. (Office 11.2, 11.2.1 and MacOS 10.4.3 do *not* offer
solutions)

When I read though the last few weeks posts I see that Microsoft has not
reliably reproduced the problem. My email address is in the clear in this
message. Have your developers contact me and I will tell you how to
reproduce this in your test environment, or I will arrange for you to see it
in my environment.

My machines are reliably unreliable when using Office 2004 on tiger. I see
the problem in Word, Excel, and Powerpoint.

My users are ready to strangle someone. I hope there is a solution before I
become the someone.