Visio, Word, and Acrobat

[Visum]

Over the past several months I have struggled with Visio and the following
issues:

1. If a simple flow chart is created in Visio (2203) and copy/paste into
Word (2003) as a Metafile works OK. However, if the simple flow chart
utilizes bullets, when pasted in Word, the bullets are scrambled. Can
someone explain this? I've created a work-around for this by creating a
specific 'arrows-bullets.ttf (with separate bold, italic and bold-italic
variations). And in Visio, Format/Text/bullets, I choose the separate font.
My only assessment is that Visio does not recognize Unicode fonts and the
Windows XP pro wingdings font is structured in unicode/MS symbols format.

2. If pasting into Word as an enhanced metafile (my preference -- when
viewing the native Word file, the graphics are viewed better as an EMF), if
the pasting does not require any resizing to fit on the page, or if rotated
from within Word, the text within boxes is thrown out and/or is clipped on
the last character of each line (when printed to Acrobat). the work-around
is (a) do the rotation from with Visio; (b) if resizing in Word occurs, I
have yet to find a work-around; and (c) give up on EMF formats, and just
stick to metafile.

3. SVG formats. Interestingly, Visio can export an SVG format, but Word
does not (a partial work-around is to, via Windows Explorer, copy the SVG
file, then in Word, paste the file... but resizing is impossible). Why
didn't MS spend a little time in getting these two programs (three, with
Acrobat) to effectively work together?

4. Why does Visio only use ttf fonts? MS has made a big deal about its
Open Type fonts, but Visio does not use these fonts? If one is, say,
writing a book with OTFs, it would be nice to get the Visio charts to have
the same fonts as the book text. Again, poor planning by MS.

5. I've just purchased Smartdraw 7. No work-arounds needed. Simple, copy
and paste. And, SD uses Open Type and PS fonts. I have been a Visio user
since before MS took them over (pre version 3). I hate to change. But I've
already instructed my production staff to change to SD. Enough fighting and
struggling with poor programming.

 

[Mark Nelson [MS]]

Lots of interesting issues here.

1) Does paste as enhanced metafile work better? For Visio 2003 this
generally provides better fidelity.

2) I'm not sure what the real problem here is. There is a known bug related
to clipping of EMF text in Word that is attributed to GDI+.

3) SVG is not a Microsoft format. Because vector graphics are essential to
Visio, Visio chose to invest the resources and support the format. Word
actually shares the same graphics platform as Excel and PowerPoint. It
would take a much larger effort to add support for SVG there. Vector
graphics are not essential to those applications.

4) Visio does not support Open Type because it uses GDI+ as its rendering
engine. GDI+ does not provide support for Open Type. This is just a
strange situation where the older rendering engines support the newer
typography technology, but the newer rendering engine does not. Microsoft
didn't have its act together on this one.

5) Visio's long term goals are to enable visualization of business
information. If you're not satisfied with the value of the software today,
check back with us next year to see how we are improving. As always,
feedback is welcome.

 

[teamplay]

Mark,

I really appreciate your diligence in supporting this discussion group. I
learn a lot.

This post really gets at some important issues about Visio's future. Like
the previous poster, I have used Visio since the pre-Microsoft days and I
think the product is in danger of losing a lot of users. Microsoft has
emphasized Visio as the programmers' visualization tool. That seems to be
where all the product development dollars have gone for years now.

When I upgraded to Visio 2003, I was shocked and peeved to discover that
Postscript fonts were no longer supported. Visio 2003 just cavalierly
substitutes fonts when opening older Visio files. What's with that?

I have a big investment in Postscript fonts. I don't want to upgrade to
OpenType. Then to hear that Visio isn't even supporting the new standard?
Yike!!

One of my major frustrations and irritations is Visio's lack of support for
color palettes. This may not be important to programmers, but for any of us
using Visio for general graphics production, the ease with which one can work
with, manage, and archive color selections is vital. I cannot think of a
single graphics program that is as poor at supporting the users' needs
regarding color.

I have recently invested in Xara and PagePlus. Both programs really opened
my eyes. They are both far more user friendly, intuitive, and powerful than
anything I've seen from Microsoft or Adobe. I've been shocked.

I've also been testing a trial version of SmartDraw. Like the previous
poster, I'd hate to switch; I can do Visio drawings in my sleep. I don't want
to have to start over. But for my needs, Visio is not advancing; it's getting
worse. Too programming-oriented, too quirky, too obscure for my needs.

Microsoft needs to give artists and graphic designers some clout on the
Visio product team. Right now, it's plain the programmer rule the roost and
the product is suffering as a result.

That's my take, anyway.

Dave

 

[Mark Nelson [MS]]

Excellent feedback. There are several people now on staff that will agree
with you. Visio has invested a lot of energy over the past few releases to
improve the programmability side of diagrams. The result is the wealth of
information that can be found in our SDK's plus all the API improvements
that went into the product. It's time to push in a new direction and
improve some of the other pain points in the product.

It is a bit early to announce our plans for the next version of Visio, but I
will say that ease of use and graphical richness are priorities. Of course,
it does no good to introduce a bunch of new functionality if we can't stay
consistent with or maintain the existing functionality. We are working to
improve our compatibility from version to version. It is important to hear
from customers what you value in the product though. Every once in a while
a hard compatibility decision has to be made, so knowing how customers use
the product and knowing what features you depend on really helps.

--
Mark Nelson
Microsoft Corporation

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

 

[Visum]

It seems there are three specific issues to consider (beyond the
engineering-type programmability of Visio):

1. Microsoft Apps interoperability. It seems to me that if MS is going
to spend money on developing such things as opentype fonts, then MS
products should across the board manage OTF, etc. It's not just that
Visio does not utilize OTF, but that Word, as an example, has the
potential to embed truetype fonts for distribution, but OTF and PS fonts
are not handled. The beauty, in theory, of software, is that software
architecture can allow for a decentralization and destandardization to
occur. Now, if I want to write a letter (using, say, Minion Pro, which
to my mind is just a better functioning and looking font than
TimesNewRoman -- and everyone is going to have their own specific
tastes) and transmit that letter to someone else, or design a MS
Project, I either have to stick within an extremely narrow band of
creatitivity, or I have to distribute the doc as a PDF, etc. This
means, then, that if Visio is going to use a specific type of rendering
system, then a clear decision is warranted (create a conversion
interface, or scrap one of the two engines and redesign the core).
Delaying the inevitable is just that, delaying and making more expensive
the ultimate conversion. An objective observation of the business and
home environments: pople are becoming more creative in how they
communicate. We've evolved from clunky unprofessional looking clip art,
to use of more clean symbols. We build teams. We motivate each other.
In the 7 years I have been working in Bosnia, I have seen workshop
presentations being done with overhead projectors and complex text
(TimesNewRoman 8 pt, I kid you not -- try reading this sometimes!) to
today, where notebooks are placed on the podium using PowerPoint and
very carefully thought out bullets and talking points. The software
needs to keep up with our need to better communicate. MS, it seems has
been focused on the infrastructure (network) side of software and not on
building better communications tools -- which Visio is so important. I
grew up with Visio. Like one of the other contributors to this thread,
I can do Visio in my sleep. And matbe that's the problem. I should be
able to purchase software that pushes the envelope -- my professional
envelope. Visio stopped doing that a long time ago.

2. It is nothing but logical that programs such as Word need to
interface better with Acrobat. Just by looking at newsgroup postings in
this group and in Adobe groups that SO MUCH anguish by users is being
communicated. I might be asking a stupid question here, but does MS and
Adobe have a formal tech liasion team working together at the MS campus?
If not, I would suspect this would go a long way to resolving the
substantial issues that arise when integrating Visio, Illustrator/Corel,
Word, Acrobat, Dreamweaver, etc.

3. Someone, somewhere, needs to deal with emerging technologies such as
SVG. I can't wait for this type of tech to fully emerge. SVG files are
smaller, and in theory, could realy open the way for true cross platform
interoperability (and I suspect this is the exact reason why competitors
are dragging their feet, they want to protect their ownership of the
market share). But a lesson can be learned by the history of how the
industry dealt with graphic format import/export filters. Companies
such as Corel and Micrografx tried to protect their import/export
features (Corel still does -- you will notice that Corel uses their own
format for such things as photo clip art, but you cannot easily find
Corel import filters). There was a long period of time when those
filters were secret treasures. Now, with most graphics formats such as
JPG, GIF, PNG, etc., almost everyone uses the same filtering mechanism.
SVG, more than the other formats, cross over from mere graphic format
to cross platform interoperability.

Well, my chest is a bit lighter now.

Visum (Michael Byrnes)

 

[Spiro Zambini]

I am sure the readers of this discussion group appreciated the "Mark Nelson
[MS] ... Excellent feedback." However, with regard to support of open type
and adobe fonts something more straightforward is needed than "It is a bit
early to announce our plans for the next version of Visio, but I will say
that ease of use and graphical richness are priorities. Of course, it does
no good to introduce a bunch of new functionality if we can't stay consistent
with or maintain the existing functionality. "

I have used Visio for years and I have ALWAYS used Adobe fonts. For
professional publishing they are a necessity. As an author I am going to be
forced by my publisher to switch another product if I cannot ensure them that
Visio will be restoring past functionality with regards to fonts in the next
release.

The only added functionality I personally need is support of different color
representations -- the print world does not use RGB it uses CMYK. If you want
to add something new, please add that.

 

[Mark Nelson [MS]]

Sorry, my statement about plans for the next version was in response to the
comment that we need to give artists and designers more clout on the product
team. It was not a vague promise to do something about font support.

We have investigated the issue of font support and are working with the
Windows team to see if there is a way to get OpenType and PostScript
capabilities into the next version. I don't know whether it will or won't
happen.

--
Mark Nelson
Microsoft Corporation

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

I am sure the readers of this discussion group appreciated the "Mark
Nelson
[MS] ... Excellent feedback." However, with regard to support of open
type
and adobe fonts something more straightforward is needed than "It is a
bit
early to announce our plans for the next version of Visio, but I will say
that ease of use and graphical richness are priorities. Of course, it
does
no good to introduce a bunch of new functionality if we can't stay
consistent
with or maintain the existing functionality. "

I have used Visio for years and I have ALWAYS used Adobe fonts. For
professional publishing they are a necessity. As an author I am going to
be
forced by my publisher to switch another product if I cannot ensure them
that
Visio will be restoring past functionality with regards to fonts in the
next
release.

The only added functionality I personally need is support of different
color
representations -- the print world does not use RGB it uses CMYK. If you
want
to add something new, please add that.

Excellent feedback. There are several people now on staff that will
agree
with you. Visio has invested a lot of energy over the past few releases
to
improve the programmability side of diagrams. The result is the wealth
of
information that can be found in our SDK's plus all the API improvements
that went into the product. It's time to push in a new direction and
improve some of the other pain points in the product.

It is a bit early to announce our plans for the next version of Visio,
but I
will say that ease of use and graphical richness are priorities. Of
course,
it does no good to introduce a bunch of new functionality if we can't
stay
consistent with or maintain the existing functionality. We are working
to
improve our compatibility from version to version. It is important to
hear
from customers what you value in the product though. Every once in a
while
a hard compatibility decision has to be made, so knowing how customers
use
the product and knowing what features you depend on really helps.

--
Mark Nelson
Microsoft Corporation

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights.