W2K: labels thrown "out of whack" when cell or table margins changed? How to fix ... ?

[StargateFanFromWork]

I absolutely must have cell margins that are at about 0.05" around the
insides of Avery-sized labels #5167. Before changing the margins, the pages
of labels are aligned and positioned correctly. The instant I change them
to 0.05", the rows all become misaligned and a standard sheet has a row
pushed off to the next page. About halfway throught the first page, the
labels contents are printing half off the labels.

The text before and after the merge in no way is too much for each cell and
I made sure that the "automatically resize to fit contents" option is not
selected in the table options of the table properties so I'm at a loss to
figure out what is going on. The labels are not always printing correctly
from sheet to sheet as, I'm sure most with experience have found, different
batches of labels come out slight differently placed. I've not done much
mail merge or label work as was the case back in my old word-processing
days, but at the time I had working templates with table margins that worked
for any label batches that came along. Through trial and error one
eventually finds the margins that work to the maximums of label production
offset and 0.05" is about the minimum to accommodate these offsets.
Certainly, 0.08" (tEventually a margin is found that accommodates all slight
variations between label stocks. But if I can't change the margins and
retain the integrity of labels, then I'm stuck. Does anyone know what to do
in this situation? I don't know what else to look at. 0.05" is not even my
preference for label margins. In WP days, I'd use the standard WP size of
0.05" and I used to use 5167 even back then.

Stuck and hoping someone here knows a good solution to this. Thanks! D

 

[StargateFanFromWork]

Okay, however non-intuitive this solution would be, it is doing the job,
thank goodness. I'm still having one problem. I'm getting an extra row at
the bottom of the merged end document. The original target document has the
correct spacing at the bottom, but the merged doct. puts in an extra row.
In WP, I vaguely remember that the last field on the page needed an extra
code (next record, or end record, or somesuch). Is this the same for Word?
Pls advise. D

 

[Peter Jamieson]

As far as I can tell, when you adjust the cell margin, Word actually
modifies the cell size (or at least, the height - I haven't even considered
the width). It wouldn't surprise me to learn that this is a well-known
"feature".

I had to switch to using points as my measurement unit to see the changes
with any precision, but with this label layout, before changing the cell
margins, the first line of text in the first row was at 36pt according to
the display in the status bar, and and the first line of the second row was
at 72pt.

After changing the cell margins to 0.05in, the equivalent values were 39.6pt
and 79pt, and the cells were pushed over to the next page. Selecting the
table and changing the row height to 32.4pt to compensate was enought to get
all the labels back on one page, but whether it's what you need is another
question.

Peter Jamieson

 

[StargateFanFromWork]

As far as I can tell, when you adjust the cell margin, Word actually
modifies the cell size (or at least, the height - I haven't even
considered the width). It wouldn't surprise me to learn that this is a
well-known "feature".

I had to switch to using points as my measurement unit to see the changes
with any precision, but with this label layout, before changing the cell
margins, the first line of text in the first row was at 36pt according to
the display in the status bar, and and the first line of the second row
was at 72pt.

After changing the cell margins to 0.05in, the equivalent values were
39.6pt and 79pt, and the cells were pushed over to the next page.
Selecting the table and changing the row height to 32.4pt to compensate
was enought to get all the labels back on one page, but whether it's what
you need is another question.

Peter Jamieson

Interesting, thank you! I"ll definitely take a look at this. Doug's
recommendation involving changing spacing to the left and right of, and
before and after paragraphs _seems_ to be working so far. Though this not
something one would intuitively think of as as a solution (who would ever
think of a cell in terms of a paragraph?), I'm just glad that something
works. But I'll check into your solution above. I always learn something
new when I try out a new technique.

Thanks. D

 

[Peter Jamieson]

IMO if it works, stick with it.

Something I noticed when experimenting with this was that the Word display
was quite unstable when I modified the cell margins - i.e. it seemed to be
updating continually. That could be just a problem with the display drivers,
especially I as use a virtual machine to go back to the older versions of
Word,, but it could also be a sign that the feature (or its implementation)
requires a lot of processing.

Peter Jamieson

 

[Peter Jamieson]

Can you spell this out a bit? I read and re-read, but wasn't sure what
exactly you are seeing. Is the extra row at the very end of the output, and
what exactly does it contain (a duplicate of the last row of labels?)

In WP, I vaguely remember that the last field on the page needed an extra
code (next record, or end record, or somesuch). Is this the same for
Word?

In Word 2000, the main thing to get right is "no { NEXT } field in the first
label cell on the sheet, one { NEXT } field at the beginning of each label
cell after that", bearing in mind that some cells in some layouts - such as
5167 - have "spacer" columns of cells that should not have anything in them.

Peter Jamieson

 

[StargateFanFromWork]

Can you spell this out a bit? I read and re-read, but wasn't sure what
exactly you are seeing. Is the extra row at the very end of the output,
and what exactly does it contain (a duplicate of the last row of labels?)

Yes, certainly. And thanks for the question; it helped to look at this from
a different angles to try to figure out what's wrong.

Admittedly, I've not done many mail merges in Word. All that I used to do
in my years as a word-processor when WP was the standard. I hadn't actually
looked at the data, so hadn't realized that I was just getting one record
repeated over and over <g>. My extensive WP experience helped out and I
remembered that there, too, we had to put and "End Record" field in. Once I
did that, this Word mail merge worked properly in that way, too.

So here's the problem. 5167 has 4 columns of 20 rows (for a total of 80
labels). The original target label file has the standard 8x20. But the
merged docts all come out at 8x21! I don't know how to fix this.

I just thought of this, here's what in each cell in the original target
label file:

User: <<USER>>
UIN: <<UIN>>
Country: <<COUNTRY>> S/N: <<SN>>
Model: <<Model>> P/N: <<PN>><<Next Record>>

I bet you that this will make much clearer what I'm doing wrong. Each and
every cell has the above coding but I'm not sure if this is completely
right. Perhaps I'm missing something here, too, that is generating labels
with an incorrect # of rows.

In Word 2000, the main thing to get right is "no { NEXT } field in the
first label cell on the sheet, one { NEXT } field at the beginning of each
label cell after that", bearing in mind that some cells in some layouts -
such as 5167 - have "spacer" columns of cells that should not have
anything in them.

I might have misunderstood the above paragraph, but when I removed the
"<<Next Record>>" (doesn't show up as "{ NEXT }" for me. I'm using an Excel
file that I used to put in the fields, btw), in the first cell, the first 2
cells in the merged label output were repeated. So that's not what you're
referring to, obviously <g>.

Re the spacer columns, yes. There is nothing in those columns at all and
they remain empty after the merge. So okay there.

Is it possible to tell what I'm doing wrong judging from the coding above??

Thanks. D

 

[StargateFanFromWork]

IMO if it works, stick with it.

True <lol>. But it's good to have a reserve solution for when the first
one ends up not working at some point. I experimented with the paragraph
spacing, btw, in a new Word table doct. I happened to be creating and the
paragraph spacing didn't work there (case in point). Fortunately, cell
margin editing could be done in that case since it was not a merge doct.
with a small tricky label, etc. Anyway, it's always good to have more than
one way of doing something.

Something I noticed when experimenting with this was that the Word display
was quite unstable when I modified the cell margins - i.e. it seemed to be
updating continually. That could be just a problem with the display
drivers, especially I as use a virtual machine to go back to the older
versions of Word,, but it could also be a sign that the feature (or its
implementation) requires a lot of processing.

That's what that slight flickering must have been ... ! I couldn't figure
out what that was though it was so slight that I thought it might be my
system having too much to process at once besides Word.

Anyway, thanks. Close to fixing this, there's just the issue of the extra
row (as per the other message in this thread). Cheers. D

 

[Peter Jamieson]

So here's the problem. 5167 has 4 columns of 20 rows (for a total of 80

labels). The original target label file has the standard 8x20. But the
merged docts all come out at 8x21! I don't know how to fix this.

The layout I get when I choose the 5167 option is 4x20. My best guess is
that at some point along the way, you may have selected a table row and
duplicated it by accident to make a 4x21 layout.

To see what's happening, it may help to show the table gridlines - try
Table|Gridlines.

User: <<USER>>
UIN: <<UIN>>
Country: <<COUNTRY>> S/N: <<SN>>
Model: <<Model>> P/N: <<PN>><<Next Record>>

Some Word-oriented terminology:
a. Mail Merge Main Document: the layout (or "template", but that does not
necessarily mean a Word .dot template) - i.e. how you want your output to
look, and where to put each item of data
b. Mail Merge Data Source - the data you are going to merge into the Mail
Merge Main Document
c. Mail Merge Destination - could be a Destination Document or a
Destination Printer, etc.

In the Mail Merge Main Document, the first label cell should have:

User: <<USER>>
UIN: <<UIN>>
Country: <<COUNTRY>> S/N: <<SN>>
Model: <<Model>> P/N: <<PN>>

Subsequent label cells should have something like:

<<Next Record>>User: <<USER>>
UIN: <<UIN>>
Country: <<COUNTRY>> S/N: <<SN>>
Model: <<Model>> P/N: <<PN>>

Peter Jamieson

 

[Doug Robbins - Word MVP]

Check that in the File>Print dialog, the Scale to paper size option is set
to "No scaling"

--
Hope this helps.

Please reply to the newsgroup unless you wish to avail yourself of my
services on a paid consulting basis.

Doug Robbins - Word MVP

 

[Peter Jamieson]

one ends up not working at some point.

I agree. Typically it depends on whether you're doing a one-off (you just
need to get it done) or are trying to get your infrastructure right for
multiple-easy-to-use repeats.

Peter Jamieson

 

[StargateFanFromWork]

The layout I get when I choose the 5167 option is 4x20. My best guess is
that at some point along the way, you may have selected a table row and
duplicated it by accident to make a 4x21 layout.

I start out with an 4x20 doct. as well. I put a typo there, btw, the end
result comes out 4x21, not 8x21! So my main word doct. (yes, or "template",
I never have kept the terms straight, Word or not), starts out as 4x20 but
the merged doct. comes out 4x21 each time. I've re-created the template 3
times now and not once did I duplicate a table row, so don't know why this

To see what's happening, it may help to show the table gridlines - try
Table|Gridlines.

Always have the table gridlines showing, btw. Thanks.

Okay, Word is opposite in that way. The <<Next Record>> appears at the top
of the 2nd record onwards rather than at the end of the first record
onwards, except for the last record. Got it.

Some Word-oriented terminology:
a. Mail Merge Main Document: the layout (or "template", but that does not
necessarily mean a Word .dot template) - i.e. how you want your output to
look, and where to put each item of data
b. Mail Merge Data Source - the data you are going to merge into the Mail
Merge Main Document
c. Mail Merge Destination - could be a Destination Document or a
Destination Printer, etc.

Yeah-yeah <lol>. I've never kept the terms straight. I just know myself
what I'm working with even after all these years of doing other work besides
word-processing <g>. It's like riding a bike, though, it all comes back to
one even if the app is a different one.

In the Mail Merge Main Document, the first label cell should have:

User: <<USER>>
UIN: <<UIN>>
Country: <<COUNTRY>> S/N: <<SN>>
Model: <<Model>> P/N: <<PN>>

Subsequent label cells should have something like:

<<Next Record>>User: <<USER>>
UIN: <<UIN>>
Country: <<COUNTRY>> S/N: <<SN>>
Model: <<Model>> P/N: <<PN>>

Changed it to this format where the <<Next Record>> is at beginning starting
with cell #2 onwards. Nothing has changed, though. The labels are still
coming out okay, same as before, and all in the right sequence, I'm just
getting in an extra table row at the bottom of each page of the merged doct.
(there are a total of 4 pages, so 3 of them are 4x21 while last page is only
partially filled as it doesn't fill up an entire page).

I'm stumped ... how 'bout you?

Cheers. D

 

[Peter Jamieson]

Has your Mail Merge Main Document definitely just got a 4x20 table?

If you look beyond page 1 of that document, are there definitely no
additional rows?

Peter Jamieson

 

[StargateFanFromWork]

Has your Mail Merge Main Document definitely just got a 4x20 table?
Yes.

If you look beyond page 1 of that document, are there definitely no
additional rows?

Yes. Just the one page. I always view in print layout mode so easy to see
when there's more than one page. And it's only been one page since the
beginning. Weird.

 

[Peter Jamieson]

Weird indeed.

So if for example your data source has 84 records and you output to a new
document, what do you see?

Does unchecking Tools|Options|Print|"Allow A4/Letter paper resizing" make
any difference?

Peter Jamieson

 

[StargateFanFromWork]

[snip]

Changed it to this format where the <<Next Record>> is at beginning
starting with cell #2 onwards. Nothing has changed, though. The labels
are still coming out okay, same as before, and all in the right sequence,
I'm just getting in an extra table row at the bottom of each page of the
merged doct. (there are a total of 4 pages, so 3 of them are 4x21 while
last page is only partially filled as it doesn't fill up an entire page).

[snip]

One clue. Something else weird is happening. In latest test, I tried both
options where we can choose _not_ to print blank lines or not but no matter
which option I choose, I get the same results: about 40 extra filled-in
cells in the last half of the 4th page where just the field "titles" show
up. In other words, the merge is creating a few "blank" cells in the final
merge document. I went back to the Excel data source file and though I knew
I'd defined the print area correctly this morning, went back and set the
print area again. There are absolutely no rows in the data source file that
are completely blank. Yes, there are a couple of blanks in the rows but
nothing to account for 40 empty records showing only titles. Yes, there are
also 2 entire blank columns in the Excel file, but these correspond to
fields that weren't defined in the Word template.

Also, besides having these empty cells, this last page has 4x19 labels
showing vs. the 4x20. Not sure if any of this is significant, but don't
recall seeing either of these 2 things happen before in other merges I've
done. Again, it's been so long I could be wrong, but thought I'd point
these 2 things out.

Cheers and have a good evening. Finishing my day and off to do some grocery
shopping <g>. D

 

[StargateFanFromWork]

Weird indeed.

So if for example your data source has 84 records and you output to a new
document, what do you see?

<pulling hair out> I should have printed the sheets out before typing the #
of sheets I actually had. Despite this other goof-up, the rest of the
problem is as described.

Okay, with an actual printout in hand, I'm getting only 2 sheets of paper,
not 4 (thank goodness). I actually have 123 rows in the Excel doct. so less
the header row, the 123 rows means that there should be 122 labels filled
out in the final merge doct. I'm getting only 120. The label info is
almost identical from cell to cell, only the serial number changes. But
they're not completely sequential so I'll have to print out the Excel doct.
tomorrow and verify where the missing 2 pieces of information are located
(how much do you want to bet that one s/b at the end of page 1 and the other
at the beginning of pg. 2, or something like it???!!).

The first sheet has 4x21 labels showing up on it, the 2 has 4x9 filled in
plus 2 extra cells, while another 38 cells just contain the "titles" of the
fields and are, therefore, "blank" cells.

...........

wait a minute ... just noticed something ... I'll be danged. The last table
row at the bottom of the first page is actually the first table row of a
second table that should actually start on page 2. I had not seen the
square with the NSEW points before signalling the start of a table because
the mouse pointer must be in a certain spot over a table, as we all know,
and I hadn't mouse over any area in the table that would show this before
until now. I just inserted a page break between the two "tables" and
everything was fine.

So, what does this mean? Am I missing a break of some sort at the bottom of
my original Word template? Could it be something as simple as that??

Cheers. D

 

[StargateFanFromWork]

news:uR%[email protected]...

[snip]

wait a minute ... just noticed something ... I'll be danged. The last
table row at the bottom of the first page is actually the first table row
of a second table that should actually start on page 2. I had not seen
the square with the NSEW points before signalling the start of a table
because the mouse pointer must be in a certain spot over a table, as we
all know, and I hadn't mouse over any area in the table that would show
this before until now. I just inserted a page break between the two
"tables" and everything was fine.

So, what does this mean? Am I missing a break of some sort at the bottom
of my original Word template? Could it be something as simple as that??

[snip]

I played around with this and ended up inserting a section break right
underneath the end of the table on the page of my original Word template.
That seemed to do the trick. Is this acceptable Word usage for this type of
thing? I'm asking because sometimes what we stumble upon doing is the best
way to do something and it might cause problems down the road in other
situations. Again, this seemed to do the trick. I'll test tomorrow by
adding pages of dummy info to the Excel file to get several sheets in the
merge and I'll see what happens then.

Thanks. D

 

[Peter Jamieson]

Another thing to check - if you bring up the Mail Merge Helper, does it
still say you are doing a label merge? If it had somehow changed to being a
Catalog merge, then it probably wouldn't do a page break after it had merged
each page. If there was space for a complete table row at the bottom of the
page, it would probably be added to the existing table. Adding a section
break might change that behaviour. However, that's a bit far-fetched.

In any case, I don't really see how MailMerge can be cramming 21 rows onto
one page if they are the correct height to match your label stationery,
which suggests that there's still something wrong in the layout department.

Peter Jamieson

news:uR%[email protected]...

[snip]

wait a minute ... just noticed something ... I'll be danged. The last
table row at the bottom of the first page is actually the first table row
of a second table that should actually start on page 2. I had not seen
the square with the NSEW points before signalling the start of a table
because the mouse pointer must be in a certain spot over a table, as we
all know, and I hadn't mouse over any area in the table that would show
this before until now. I just inserted a page break between the two
"tables" and everything was fine.

So, what does this mean? Am I missing a break of some sort at the bottom
of my original Word template? Could it be something as simple as that??

[snip]

I played around with this and ended up inserting a section break right
underneath the end of the table on the page of my original Word template.
That seemed to do the trick. Is this acceptable Word usage for this type
of thing? I'm asking because sometimes what we stumble upon doing is the
best way to do something and it might cause problems down the road in
other situations. Again, this seemed to do the trick. I'll test tomorrow
by adding pages of dummy info to the Excel file to get several sheets in
the merge and I'll see what happens then.

Thanks. D

 

[Doug Robbins - Word MVP]

If the mail merge main document is changed to a catalog or directory type
mailmerge document, another row of labels will be added at the bottom of the
sheet. There is however only one table in the document, so the NSEW points
would not appear.

If the mail merge main document is changed to a letter type mailmerge main
document, and the Next Page Section Break that normally separates the pages,
somehow got changed to a Continuous Section break, then another row of
labels will be added to the bottom of the sheet and in this instance, that
row of labels is in a second table in the document so the NSEW points will
appear.

--
Hope this helps.

Please reply to the newsgroup unless you wish to avail yourself of my
services on a paid consulting basis.

Doug Robbins - Word MVP

Another thing to check - if you bring up the Mail Merge Helper, does it
still say you are doing a label merge? If it had somehow changed to being
a Catalog merge, then it probably wouldn't do a page break after it had
merged each page. If there was space for a complete table row at the
bottom of the page, it would probably be added to the existing table.
Adding a section break might change that behaviour. However, that's a bit
far-fetched.

In any case, I don't really see how MailMerge can be cramming 21 rows onto
one page if they are the correct height to match your label stationery,
which suggests that there's still something wrong in the layout
department.

Peter Jamieson

[snip]

wait a minute ... just noticed something ... I'll be danged. The last
table row at the bottom of the first page is actually the first table
row of a second table that should actually start on page 2. I had not
seen the square with the NSEW points before signalling the start of a
table because the mouse pointer must be in a certain spot over a table,
as we all know, and I hadn't mouse over any area in the table that would
show this before until now. I just inserted a page break between the
two "tables" and everything was fine.

So, what does this mean? Am I missing a break of some sort at the
bottom of my original Word template? Could it be something as simple as
that??

[snip]

I played around with this and ended up inserting a section break right
underneath the end of the table on the page of my original Word template.
That seemed to do the trick. Is this acceptable Word usage for this type
of thing? I'm asking because sometimes what we stumble upon doing is the
best way to do something and it might cause problems down the road in
other situations. Again, this seemed to do the trick. I'll test
tomorrow by adding pages of dummy info to the Excel file to get several
sheets in the merge and I'll see what happens then.

Thanks. D