What triggers overwritten styles (?)

[mdh]

Hi,
I'm using Word 2008 on my mac and sharing a document with a Windows
user who uses Office 2007.

I've set up a basic body text style ("bt") that is based on NO STYLE,
sets the font to Times New Roman, etc.
When the windows user opens the file, the style gets redefined to
using "Cambria", among other changes.

Is there a setting that gets saved with the document, or some setting
on their Office installation that would cause this?

thanks,
Matt

 

[mdh]

I should also mention that the "bt" style was still based on "no
style" after the windows user edited it.

I did notice that the "Heading 1" style had also changed. In my
original document, this style was based on "no style". The edited
document had this changed to be based on "Normal" style.

I believe the editing only involved opening the document, deleting
some lines, and then resaving.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[John McGhie]

That would be the application of a "Theme". In Word 2007 or Word 2008, the
Theme changes the font set.

Cambria is the new replacement for Times New Roman: it looks a lot better
on-screen.

Most Office documents are used mainly on-screen these days, so Cambria is a
better choice: easier on the eye and not as crushed and hard to read

Cheers

Hi,
I'm using Word 2008 on my mac and sharing a document with a Windows
user who uses Office 2007.

I've set up a basic body text style ("bt") that is based on NO STYLE,
sets the font to Times New Roman, etc.
When the windows user opens the file, the style gets redefined to
using "Cambria", among other changes.

Is there a setting that gets saved with the document, or some setting
on their Office installation that would cause this?

thanks,
Matt

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

--

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[mdh]

When does a theme get applied? Is there some setting where these try
to assert themselves automatically, or does it need to be manually
applied?

I don't have a strong feeling about the appearances of the fonts
myself; our documents are supposed to be in TNR, and it looks weird to
have a document with mixed fonts (that's what got my attention).

Matt

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Matt:

Yes, in Office 2007, a Theme can be applied "by Default".

Or the user can choose to apply one.

In your case, you would need to modify the Word 2007 Default Theme for all
users to specify Times New Roman as the Serif font choice to prevent these
changes.

Sorry: I don't know much about Themes. They're supposed to be an
implementation of XML Schemas (similar to Cascading Style Sheets). But from
what I can see, it's a very "limited" implementation. I could not find any
effect other than to create problems with document fonts and colours, so I
turned it off and left it off.

Ask over on the PC Word group if you want an extensive answer

Cheers

When does a theme get applied? Is there some setting where these try
to assert themselves automatically, or does it need to be manually
applied?

I don't have a strong feeling about the appearances of the fonts
myself; our documents are supposed to be in TNR, and it looks weird to
have a document with mixed fonts (that's what got my attention).

Matt

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

--

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[CyberTaz]

PMFJI, but I seldom neglect to opine differently from John whenever I can --
which isn't very often But my understanding of Themes (in both 2008 &
2007) is a bit different than his. I truly don't know which is more correct.

In 2007, Themes include Font Schemes, Color Schemes & Effects whereas 2008
includes only Font Schemes & Color Schemes. These are presets but can be
selected by the user to create customized combinations. When you select one
of the Themes components are affected within the document. However...

In neither version can you create a document (based on Normal.dotm) that
does not have a Theme applied. Every document starts with a Document Theme
by the name of Office Theme which includes the Office Color Scheme and the
Office Font Scheme which specifies Calibri & Cambria fonts. The Theme,
however, is virtually transparent to begin with because only specific
components of a document are keyed to the elements of a Theme. Such
components as SmartArt Graphics, Shapes, & Charts have their default
formatting determined by the Theme as do *some* of the Built-in Styles...
but Normal is not one of those styles.

IOW, if you create a new file & simply type content it will appear in
whatever default font you've chosen and have all the defined attributes of
the Normal paragraph style. Direct formatting can be applied as you wish &
you can also use Custom Styles as long as they are not based on a style that
is tied to Themes. You can then select whatever Theme you want & your
formatting will not be affected in any way *unless* you have employed a
Style that includes "Theme" in it's definition or have introduced any of the
other elements that are tied to Themes. If you have, the colors, fonts (and
Effects such as shadows, glows, etc in 2007) of those linked to Themes will
change based on what's called for by the Theme you apply.

Heading 1 is one of the Built-in Styles that is tied to Themes & simply
changing its "based on" property to No Style rather than Normal doesn't
break that link... As above, Normal isn't what links the style to Themes in
the first place. That brings us to the point(s) I haven't yet discovered

It appears to me that the linking to Themes must be handled internally, most
likely as John describes the use of XML Schemas. Those schemas aren't
accessible to the user -- at least not readily -- so you can't un-link
elements which by default are linked to Themes, nor can you link elements to
Themes other than by limited means [i.e., set the document default for line
& fill of Shapes or link a style to a Theme by basing the style on another
which is already linked].

If my understanding is correct it suggests to me that you are not being
given the whole picture of what was done in the document on the PC side. If
your "bt style" was based on No Style a Theme applied in Word 2007 should
have had no impact whatsoever on the formatting of the text to which "bt"
had been applied -- and certainly should not have redefined the style
itself. The Heading 1 style OTOH definitely would be updated by a different
Theme being applied in 207 or in 2008.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Peter Jamieson]

Such

components as SmartArt Graphics, Shapes, & Charts have their default
formatting determined by the Theme as do *some* of the Built-in Styles...
but Normal is not one of those styles.

Well, maybe this /is/ "the point(s) I haven't yet discovered"

AFAICS Normal /is/ also tied to the theme by default. But I haven't
pursued this far: in Word 2007 the Normal paragraph style is defined as
Default (+Body), which (I believe) means that it is taken from the
default Body font of the Theme. The standard heading styles are defined
as Default (+Headings). If you modify the style and go to the Font
dialog box, you see they are defined as +Body and +Headings
respectively. In Word 2008 the presentation is different in that the
current font name for them is provided instead of "Default" and "+" is
replaced by "Theme " - e.g. Cambria (Theme Body) and Calibri (Theme
Headings). So if you change the Theme fonts in 2008 to Arial, Times New
Roman, the names Cambria and Calibri change also in the font definition
dialog. However, I suspect that if you specify Cambria as the font
rather than Cambria (Theme Body), it will no longer change under a theme
change. Whether it will do so if you save from 2008 and open in 2007 I
have not checked.


Peter Jamieson

http://tips.pjmsn.me.uk

PMFJI, but I seldom neglect to opine differently from John whenever I can --
which isn't very often But my understanding of Themes (in both 2008 &
2007) is a bit different than his. I truly don't know which is more correct.

In 2007, Themes include Font Schemes, Color Schemes & Effects whereas 2008
includes only Font Schemes & Color Schemes. These are presets but can be
selected by the user to create customized combinations. When you select one
of the Themes components are affected within the document. However...

In neither version can you create a document (based on Normal.dotm) that
does not have a Theme applied. Every document starts with a Document Theme
by the name of Office Theme which includes the Office Color Scheme and the
Office Font Scheme which specifies Calibri & Cambria fonts. The Theme,
however, is virtually transparent to begin with because only specific
components of a document are keyed to the elements of a Theme. Such
components as SmartArt Graphics, Shapes, & Charts have their default
formatting determined by the Theme as do *some* of the Built-in Styles...
but Normal is not one of those styles.

IOW, if you create a new file & simply type content it will appear in
whatever default font you've chosen and have all the defined attributes of
the Normal paragraph style. Direct formatting can be applied as you wish &
you can also use Custom Styles as long as they are not based on a style that
is tied to Themes. You can then select whatever Theme you want & your
formatting will not be affected in any way *unless* you have employed a
Style that includes "Theme" in it's definition or have introduced any of the
other elements that are tied to Themes. If you have, the colors, fonts (and
Effects such as shadows, glows, etc in 2007) of those linked to Themes will
change based on what's called for by the Theme you apply.

Heading 1 is one of the Built-in Styles that is tied to Themes & simply
changing its "based on" property to No Style rather than Normal doesn't
break that link... As above, Normal isn't what links the style to Themes in
the first place. That brings us to the point(s) I haven't yet discovered

It appears to me that the linking to Themes must be handled internally, most
likely as John describes the use of XML Schemas. Those schemas aren't
accessible to the user -- at least not readily -- so you can't un-link
elements which by default are linked to Themes, nor can you link elements to
Themes other than by limited means [i.e., set the document default for line
& fill of Shapes or link a style to a Theme by basing the style on another
which is already linked].

If my understanding is correct it suggests to me that you are not being
given the whole picture of what was done in the document on the PC side. If
your "bt style" was based on No Style a Theme applied in Word 2007 should
have had no impact whatsoever on the formatting of the text to which "bt"
had been applied -- and certainly should not have redefined the style
itself. The Heading 1 style OTOH definitely would be updated by a different
Theme being applied in 207 or in 2008.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

When does a theme get applied? Is there some setting where these try
to assert themselves automatically, or does it need to be manually
applied?

I don't have a strong feeling about the appearances of the fonts
myself; our documents are supposed to be in TNR, and it looks weird to
have a document with mixed fonts (that's what got my attention).

Matt

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Peter;

Your reply struck a chord: I neglected to consider that I had changed the
default font in my 2008 installation. As you've observed, it appears that
Normal style by default is in fact linked to Document Themes... if "Cambria
(Body)" remains the default font for Normal. Using a different default font
apparently is what breaks the link -- although I haven't had the opportunity
to test plain "Cambria" I had the same result with a few others.

I am noticing some difference, though, from the descriptions you wrote &
will post a more detailed report of my findings later on. Likewise, I intend
to take a closer look at 2007 to come up with a more direct comparison...
Perhaps this conversation is just the shove I needed to delve more deeply
into the Black Hole of Themes.

Unlike John, I don't challenge the potential value of Themes. Ironically, it
probably wouldn't even be necessary to dig deeper if the built-in Themes
weren't so damnably garish & sophomoric On that point, at least, John &
I agree fully.

--
HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
Office:Mac MVP

Such
components as SmartArt Graphics, Shapes, & Charts have their default
formatting determined by the Theme as do *some* of the Built-in
Styles...
but Normal is not one of those styles.

Well, maybe this /is/ "the point(s) I haven't yet discovered"

AFAICS Normal /is/ also tied to the theme by default. But I haven't
pursued this far: in Word 2007 the Normal paragraph style is defined as
Default (+Body), which (I believe) means that it is taken from the default
Body font of the Theme. The standard heading styles are defined as Default
(+Headings). If you modify the style and go to the Font dialog box, you
see they are defined as +Body and +Headings respectively. In Word 2008 the
presentation is different in that the current font name for them is
provided instead of "Default" and "+" is replaced by "Theme " - e.g.
Cambria (Theme Body) and Calibri (Theme Headings). So if you change the
Theme fonts in 2008 to Arial, Times New Roman, the names Cambria and
Calibri change also in the font definition dialog. However, I suspect that
if you specify Cambria as the font rather than Cambria (Theme Body), it
will no longer change under a theme change. Whether it will do so if you
save from 2008 and open in 2007 I have not checked.


Peter Jamieson

http://tips.pjmsn.me.uk

PMFJI, but I seldom neglect to opine differently from John whenever I
can --
which isn't very often But my understanding of Themes (in both 2008 &
2007) is a bit different than his. I truly don't know which is more
correct.

In 2007, Themes include Font Schemes, Color Schemes & Effects whereas
2008
includes only Font Schemes & Color Schemes. These are presets but can be
selected by the user to create customized combinations. When you select
one
of the Themes components are affected within the document. However...

In neither version can you create a document (based on Normal.dotm) that
does not have a Theme applied. Every document starts with a Document
Theme
by the name of Office Theme which includes the Office Color Scheme and
the
Office Font Scheme which specifies Calibri & Cambria fonts. The Theme,
however, is virtually transparent to begin with because only specific
components of a document are keyed to the elements of a Theme. Such
components as SmartArt Graphics, Shapes, & Charts have their default
formatting determined by the Theme as do *some* of the Built-in Styles...
but Normal is not one of those styles.

IOW, if you create a new file & simply type content it will appear in
whatever default font you've chosen and have all the defined attributes
of
the Normal paragraph style. Direct formatting can be applied as you wish
&
you can also use Custom Styles as long as they are not based on a style
that
is tied to Themes. You can then select whatever Theme you want & your
formatting will not be affected in any way *unless* you have employed a
Style that includes "Theme" in it's definition or have introduced any of
the
other elements that are tied to Themes. If you have, the colors, fonts
(and
Effects such as shadows, glows, etc in 2007) of those linked to Themes
will
change based on what's called for by the Theme you apply.

Heading 1 is one of the Built-in Styles that is tied to Themes & simply
changing its "based on" property to No Style rather than Normal doesn't
break that link... As above, Normal isn't what links the style to Themes
in
the first place. That brings us to the point(s) I haven't yet discovered


It appears to me that the linking to Themes must be handled internally,
most
likely as John describes the use of XML Schemas. Those schemas aren't
accessible to the user -- at least not readily -- so you can't un-link
elements which by default are linked to Themes, nor can you link elements
to
Themes other than by limited means [i.e., set the document default for
line
& fill of Shapes or link a style to a Theme by basing the style on
another
which is already linked].

If my understanding is correct it suggests to me that you are not being
given the whole picture of what was done in the document on the PC side.
If
your "bt style" was based on No Style a Theme applied in Word 2007 should
have had no impact whatsoever on the formatting of the text to which "bt"
had been applied -- and certainly should not have redefined the style
itself. The Heading 1 style OTOH definitely would be updated by a
different
Theme being applied in 207 or in 2008.

HTH |:>) Bob Jones [MVP] Office:Mac

When does a theme get applied? Is there some setting where these try
to assert themselves automatically, or does it need to be manually
applied?

I don't have a strong feeling about the appearances of the fonts
myself; our documents are supposed to be in TNR, and it looks weird to
have a document with mixed fonts (that's what got my attention).

Matt

 

[John McGhie]

Right!! War, is it??

Mr. Jones: I shall buy you TWO beers if the next time I see you, you have
discovered a SINGLE useful purpose for Themes

Cheers

Hi Peter;

Your reply struck a chord: I neglected to consider that I had changed the
default font in my 2008 installation. As you've observed, it appears that
Normal style by default is in fact linked to Document Themes... if "Cambria
(Body)" remains the default font for Normal. Using a different default font
apparently is what breaks the link -- although I haven't had the opportunity
to test plain "Cambria" I had the same result with a few others.

I am noticing some difference, though, from the descriptions you wrote &
will post a more detailed report of my findings later on. Likewise, I intend
to take a closer look at 2007 to come up with a more direct comparison...
Perhaps this conversation is just the shove I needed to delve more deeply
into the Black Hole of Themes.

Unlike John, I don't challenge the potential value of Themes. Ironically, it
probably wouldn't even be necessary to dig deeper if the built-in Themes
weren't so damnably garish & sophomoric On that point, at least, John &
I agree fully.

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

--

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]

 

[Clive Huggan]

Right!! War, is it??

Mr. Jones: I shall buy you TWO beers if the next time I see you, you have
discovered a SINGLE useful purpose for Themes

Watch out, Bob -- he's talking about watery Shanghai stuff, not the real
McCoy...

CH
===

 

[Phillip Jones, C.E.T.]

In that case send John a case of Pabst Blue Ribbon so he can serve the
real thing ;-)

 

[John McGhie]

Phillip!!

You're talking to an Australian....

They do NOT make "beer" in Millwaukee.... Good old Coopers from South
Australia. Known in some circles as the Ring of Fire. No, I won't explain,
this is a family radio station...

But Coopers will sort him out

Cheers

In that case send John a case of Pabst Blue Ribbon so he can serve the
real thing ;-)

This email is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless you intend to pay!

--

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]