Word 2004 as an HTML editor

B

Bible John

What are the pro's and cons of doing this? Does Word 2004 make a good HTML
editor?
--
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,
but the gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://www.cerm.info
 
W

William Smith [MVP]

Bible said:
What are the pro's and cons of doing this? Does Word 2004 make a good HTML
editor?

My two cents and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

That depends on what you plan to do with the HTML. If you're creating
web pages then run far far away! Word's HTML was not made to be
standards compliant with any version of HTML 4.x. Instead, it outputs
HTML that will be very compatible with other users viewing it on their
computers as an HTML document. To do that it must embed a lot of excess
code that adds to the size of the output.

Do this: Open Word and enter the words "This is a test." Don't format or
tweak anything else. Save as a web page and then open in a web browser.
View the source code.

BBEdit from <http://www.barebones.com> is probably the best text editor
for HTML on the Mac.

Hope this helps!

--

bill

Entourage Help Page <http://entourage.mvps.org/>
Entourage Help Blog <http://blog.entourage.mvps.org/>
YouTalk <http://nine.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/youtalk>
Twitter: follow <http://twitter.com/meck>
 
P

Phillip Jones

http://www.versiontracker.com/php/qs.php?pg=1&str=html editor&srchArea=macosx&by=rating&dir=desc

Try this for some reason anything other than a Mozilla product breaks up
a URl into an unusable mess that you have to paste the parts together.

Mozilla products have been designed (usually) to read a URL as a URL and
will not insert Breaks.

If you don't use a mozilla product then another way to overcome this
problem is start the URL at the beginning of the line and make sure you
have character width set to 80 or 84.
I agree with Bill for the same as well as other reasons.

Sift through the list here;

<http://www.versiontracker.com/php/qs.php?pg=1&str=html editor&srchArea=ma
cosx&by=rating&dir=desc>

Any with a 4* or 5* rating would be a better choice than Word.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
B

Bible John

Thanks for the input. BBEDIT is way too complicated for my use.

This is what I do.

Visit www.cerm.info

Click on a article (ie Christian Fundamentalism).

I created the article in Word and I just need to edit it. Will Word work?

I also use Home Page 3.x in Classic for most of my HTML uses.


--
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,
but the gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://www.cerm.info
 
C

Charles

Bible John said:
Thanks for the input. BBEDIT is way too complicated for my use.

I am not sure what you mean about BBEDIT being complicated. You open a
new-document window, paste in text and edit; when you are done, you
save. It's much more intuitive than Word.

For your limited purposes, though, what you probably want is the
scaled-down, free version of BBEDIT, called TextWrangler:
<http://www.barebones.com/products/textwrangler/>.

All this assumes of course that you know how to view and copy out the
HTML source code of a given Web page, edit only the text, without
changing the HTML code, and upload it to your Web site.

Charles
 
J

John McGhie

Hi John:

For the reply, see the first line of your signature....

Seriously: Word is an appalling HTML Editor.

Its advantages are:
1) It's cheap
2) You already have it
3) You already know how to use it.

Its disadvantages are:
1) Purists hate the code it writes
2) It won't "prevent" you doing things you really shouldn't do in HTML.
3) It handles relative pathnames really badly.

That said, the majority of http://word.mvps.org/index.html was build using
Word as the HTML editor.

If you need to create literally thousands of pages of HTML in a couple of
hours, Word is perhaps the best application going, because it has a powerful
macro language that enables you to automate the process.

For just a "few" HTML pages, there are any number of free or cheap HTML
editors that will do a good job if you already know HTML. And at least one
very expensive one.

Unless you know HTML well, and have plenty of money, I might be tempted to
start with Word and see how you go.

Hope this helps


What are the pro's and cons of doing this? Does Word 2004 make a good HTML
editor?

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 
B

Bible John

Does that assume one is an expert at HTML? Because I am not.

--
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,
but the gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://www.cerm.info
 
B

Bible John

I'll try Word out.

--
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,
but the gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://www.cerm.info
 
P

Phillip Jones

I'll tell you something that will may you grin anyway.

I own and used until recently Studio 8 (which is Dreamweaver, Flash,
Contribute 8)

In Dreamweaver in the tools menu there is actually a command
*Fix Microsoft HTML*

In other words if someone create an HTML page using MS Word2004 it will
read and strip all the MS Junk and Change to real HTML code. IT gets it
right about 90&% of the time.

Bible said:
Does that assume one is an expert at HTML? Because I am not.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Phillip:

OK, just to add to the amusement, I can think of a few people who have been
deeply, deeply humiliated by that control :)

It means "Fix" in the sense of "Destroy the document so it will never come
back again."

Microsoft Word doesn't write "HTML" and they should have claimed that it
did. It writes XHTML -- HTML enhanced with XML. "Marketing" thought we
were all too stupid to understand "XHTML", so they called it "HTML". It's
not. It never was. The XML written by Word 2007 is remarkably clean these
days: but it's NOT HTML and it never was :)

The reason is simple: Microsoft wanted users to be able to save a document
as a "Web Page", then re-open the result and get a document back. And
that's what Word does.

Word is capable of far, far more complex formatting than HTML can describe.
Word's XHTML will fully describe a Word document (including things such as
headers, footers, pages, and page numbering) which do not exist in HTML.

However, all modern browsers can display Word's XHTML and get the document
to look exactly like it did in Word. They ignore the headers and footers
and whatever. And if you re-open the web page in Word, you get your
document back, and you can re-save it back as a Word document and keep your
tracked changes or table of contents or whatever.

However: Press the magic "Fix" button in Adobe, and she's pooched. Utterly
cactus. Irretrievably destroyed. If you want to bring the result of that
back into Word, you will get an opportunity to greatly improve your typing
skills ...

I always say: Word writes very rich code that fully describes a Word
document. If you do not like the code, don't look -- it was never designed
to be human-readable anyway.

But for John's application, I think Word's approach is ideal. John doesn't
WANT to win some boring debate about deprecated attributes in HTML. He
wants his documents on the web. Word will do that, just by "Save As". John
doesn't know HTML, and doesn't have time to learn it: he will never look at
the code, and neither will his readers. They will all see John's web pages
looking exactly like they did to John in Word.

John will save literally months of his time, and many dollars. His readers
will get their content. And nearly everyone is happy.

When I first started saving Word XHTML to the Word website, people used to
send me angry emails frothing at the mouth over "the quality of the HTML".
I made each of them the same offer: YOU re-code the page to look exactly the
same in 'correct' HTML and I will publish it. None of them ever sent me a
corrected page: not one! And I know why: the time, effort, and knowledge it
takes to beat Word at this game without losing any information is very
considerable. Which is why I don't do it.

To write a moderately complex web page by hand in BBEDIT will take someone
who knows HTML well most of a working day. I use Word to publish websites
at the rate of about 800 pages an hour. See the difference?

Yes, these days I do tend to use Expression Web to fiddle with the result.
But: surprisingly little, and not every time. I have other things to do
with my life :)

Cheers


I'll tell you something that will may you grin anyway.

I own and used until recently Studio 8 (which is Dreamweaver, Flash,
Contribute 8)

In Dreamweaver in the tools menu there is actually a command
*Fix Microsoft HTML*

In other words if someone create an HTML page using MS Word2004 it will
read and strip all the MS Junk and Change to real HTML code. IT gets it
right about 90&% of the time.

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 
P

Phillip Jones, CET

I agree with your comments. But the reason its there, is that they have
run into so many times in Previous version that didn't have it, people
see the ability, think well I can create a web page or website. Then
send the document to someone on website then they upload it and it looks
worse than terrible.

Its happened. If not the reason for the command would not be there.

Now Of course You and all the MVP's know better. And I do as well. But
some on the internet are just coming on. Or their most experience is
using an email Client or We Browser to view the web.

So it not quite as funny as it sounds.

John said:
Hi Phillip:

OK, just to add to the amusement, I can think of a few people who have been
deeply, deeply humiliated by that control :)

It means "Fix" in the sense of "Destroy the document so it will never come
back again."

Microsoft Word doesn't write "HTML" and they should have claimed that it
did. It writes XHTML -- HTML enhanced with XML. "Marketing" thought we
were all too stupid to understand "XHTML", so they called it "HTML". It's
not. It never was. The XML written by Word 2007 is remarkably clean these
days: but it's NOT HTML and it never was :)

The reason is simple: Microsoft wanted users to be able to save a document
as a "Web Page", then re-open the result and get a document back. And
that's what Word does.

Word is capable of far, far more complex formatting than HTML can describe.
Word's XHTML will fully describe a Word document (including things such as
headers, footers, pages, and page numbering) which do not exist in HTML.

However, all modern browsers can display Word's XHTML and get the document
to look exactly like it did in Word. They ignore the headers and footers
and whatever. And if you re-open the web page in Word, you get your
document back, and you can re-save it back as a Word document and keep your
tracked changes or table of contents or whatever.

However: Press the magic "Fix" button in Adobe, and she's pooched. Utterly
cactus. Irretrievably destroyed. If you want to bring the result of that
back into Word, you will get an opportunity to greatly improve your typing
skills ...

I always say: Word writes very rich code that fully describes a Word
document. If you do not like the code, don't look -- it was never designed
to be human-readable anyway.

But for John's application, I think Word's approach is ideal. John doesn't
WANT to win some boring debate about deprecated attributes in HTML. He
wants his documents on the web. Word will do that, just by "Save As". John
doesn't know HTML, and doesn't have time to learn it: he will never look at
the code, and neither will his readers. They will all see John's web pages
looking exactly like they did to John in Word.

John will save literally months of his time, and many dollars. His readers
will get their content. And nearly everyone is happy.

When I first started saving Word XHTML to the Word website, people used to
send me angry emails frothing at the mouth over "the quality of the HTML".
I made each of them the same offer: YOU re-code the page to look exactly the
same in 'correct' HTML and I will publish it. None of them ever sent me a
corrected page: not one! And I know why: the time, effort, and knowledge it
takes to beat Word at this game without losing any information is very
considerable. Which is why I don't do it.

To write a moderately complex web page by hand in BBEDIT will take someone
who knows HTML well most of a working day. I use Word to publish websites
at the rate of about 800 pages an hour. See the difference?

Yes, these days I do tend to use Expression Web to fiddle with the result.
But: surprisingly little, and not every time. I have other things to do
with my life :)

Cheers

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
P

Phillip Jones

Also you have to remember That those word written HTML (XHTML?XML)
documents work fin in previous version of Internet Explorer which reads
the code as intended. But then when you view those pages with W3C
compatible Browsers. Funny things appear.

And with IE8 coming out these document may or may not look as intended.

I agree with your comments. But the reason its there, is that they have
run into so many times in Previous version that didn't have it, people
see the ability, think well I can create a web page or website. Then
send the document to someone on website then they upload it and it looks
worse than terrible.

Its happened. If not the reason for the command would not be there.

Now Of course You and all the MVP's know better. And I do as well. But
some on the internet are just coming on. Or their most experience is
using an email Client or We Browser to view the web.

So it not quite as funny as it sounds.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Phillip:

I agree with your comments. But the reason its there, is that they have
run into so many times in Previous version that didn't have it, people
see the ability, think well I can create a web page or website. Then
send the document to someone on website then they upload it and it looks
worse than terrible.

Well, yes! I have run into that issue once or twice myself. But the Adobe
button will only make a bad web page worse. It removes "information" from
the code. It does not remove mistakes (I really wish it did...)
Its happened. If not the reason for the command would not be there.

Oh, come on Phillip: Not even YOU would swallow that one. The command is
there because Adobe seized an opportunity to try to embarrass Microsoft by
appealing to people who didn't understand web coding.

Microsoft released a free add-in that does the same thing. Then they built
it into Word in later versions.

Cheers

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Phillip:

Funny things such as WHAT? Gimme some examples? Enquiring minds need to
know :)

I can assure you that the only time I have seen "bad things" appearing, in
any browser, is when I have put them into the code.

People making web pages really do have to accept responsibility for their
own actions. The WWW is not very forgiving: if I make a stuff-up, the whole
world sees it :)

There is actually nothing wrong with the code that Word writes. It is not
written the way a human would write it, and it is thus a little difficult to
read if you happen to be a human. But a machine will have no trouble with
it (in fact, a machine probably finds it easier to read that the so-called
"well written code" because it requires less parsing to interpret it).

This is code built specifically to do a job: it does it very well.
"Allowing human beings to read the code" was never part of the job.
"Accurately render a Word document" was the name of the game -- and at that,
it does a very good job.

IE8 will have no problem with it, provided you leave the code alone. Press
the "Adobe Code Slasher" button, and you may get a very different result.

If you remove information from any piece of code, chances are it won't work
as well as it used to :)

Cheers

Also you have to remember That those word written HTML (XHTML?XML)
documents work fin in previous version of Internet Explorer which reads
the code as intended. But then when you view those pages with W3C
compatible Browsers. Funny things appear.

And with IE8 coming out these document may or may not look as intended.

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 

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