Word crashes that are filename (!!!!) dependent

[jrnz]

Version: 2008
Operating System: Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)
Processor: Intel

I'm getting pretty fed up with the way Word 2008 crashes vs the older version. One particularly annoying one is that, for some file names, you can not edit ANYTHING and save it without a crash that looses it all. It is admittedly with somewhat long names, but not with any (Mac-) illegal characters in it -- frankly, I can't find the pattern. The only solution which, believe me was far from obvious when I first encountered these debilitating crashes, is to rename the file! Then it seems OK, but of course will still, in typical MS fashion, crash from time to time.

I'm very seriously considering abandoning Word for Apple's Pages application, especially now that EndNote works directly with it. Any comments?

 

[CyberTaz]

If you're experiencing frequent crashes there is something wrong. Although
the 2008 apps had some serious problems when first released the stability
has been improved dramatically. If you'll supply some additional details
perhaps the problem can be resolved.

First, what is your exact update level of both Office & OS X?

What do you mean by "some file names" -- is it the same files repeatedly?

Quantify what you mean by "somewhat long"... 20 characters? 50? 100? What
characters comprise the names of the problem files? Where are you saving
these files -- local HD, file server? Is the folder you're saving to buried
deep in a hierarchy of other folders?

What can you describe about the document content & structure? Are you using
Track Changes, Master Documents, repetitive revisions by direct formatting,
graphic objects...? Are these documents you originate or did they come from
another user? What file type are they saved in (.doc, .docx, other). Any
details would help.

BTW: Threats will not do any good here. Those who contribute to this group
are independent users of the product who volunteer their time to assist
other users, we're not MS employees. You're not communicating with MS, so
what product you might choose to switch to is totally irrelevant. Nor do
snide remarks about MS, their products or anything/anyone else contribute to
resolving issues. All are most certainly entitled to their respective
opinions but it's far more productive for for everyone if those trying to
offer assistance are able to deal with facts & details relevant to the
problem at hand without having to wade through the venom.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[CyberTaz]

I'm afraid my time is very limited at the moment but I would be glad to
explore your situation in more depth. If you'd post a NEW message rather
than replying in this thread it would help keep things separate & distinct
from the OP's issues. Please be sure to specify your exact update levels for
both Office & OS X as well as any details pertinent to the problems you're
experiencing.

One thing for general clarification: In 2 messages you have referred
explicitly to "autosave" which does not exist in Word or any other Mac
Office program. The feature is AutoRecover [specifically, Save AutoRecover
Data] & it does not save anything to the document (file) you're working with
-- automatically or otherwise. It's also quite unlikely that AutoRecover,
itself, has anything to do with the crashes you're reporting... If it did,
increasing the frequency with which it executes would cause the crashes to
occur more often.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[jrnz]

Dear Bob:

Thanks for your comments...

If you're experiencing frequent crashes there is something wrong. Although
the 2008 apps had some serious problems when first released the stability
has been improved dramatically. If you'll supply some additional details
perhaps the problem can be resolved.

It was pretty clear since the upgrade to Office 2008 from Office 2004. ALL MS applications now crash far more frequently, most notably Excel. However, I have NOT been able to get a clear picture of this, or find solid ways to reproduce the crashes (except with the filename issue, and then, regrettably, I didn't keep track of the exact filename(s) that produced the issues). As a frequent beta-tester, I understand that this is a hopeless case for trying to track down problems -- I apologize for that.

First, what is your exact update level of both Office & OS X?

Absolute latest of both -- I'm always fully up to date (and, with Office, this is particularly in the hope that the issues that cause me trouble may have been fixed).

What do you mean by "some file names" -- is it the same files repeatedly?

Yes. As noted above, though, I stupidly did NOT keep track of these file names, TWICE. I simply renamed the file to something like junk.doc and all was fine. Believe me, it was strange to even discover that the name was the problem -- I launched the file, tried to change something and save, and it crashed a dozen times. Then I decided to 'Save As' junk.doc first -- and noticed that this file was suddenly fine. B.t.w. copying out all the text and pasting it in a new file (with a similar name, but with '-2' on the end) did NOT help.

Quantify what you mean by "somewhat long"... 20 characters? 50? 100? What
characters comprise the names of the problem files? Where are you saving
these files -- local HD, file server? Is the folder you're saving to buried
deep in a hierarchy of other folders?

30 chars. Could not see what characters were a problem, but really wish I'd kept record of the names. I will in the future.
Local HD. Yes, fairly deep in hierarchy.

What can you describe about the document content & structure? Are you using
Track Changes, Master Documents, repetitive revisions by direct formatting,
graphic objects...? Are these documents you originate or did they come from
another user? What file type are they saved in (.doc, .docx, other). Any
details would help.

..Doc, my own files, track changes on but only a couple of levels,.

BTW: Threats will not do any good here. Those who contribute to this group
are independent users of the product who volunteer their time to assist
other users, we're not MS employees. You're not communicating with MS, so
what product you might choose to switch to is totally irrelevant. Nor do
snide remarks about MS, their products or anything/anyone else contribute to
resolving issues. All are most certainly entitled to their respective
opinions but it's far more productive for for everyone if those trying to
offer assistance are able to deal with facts & details relevant to the
problem at hand without having to wade through the venom.

Fair enough. My posting was not sufficiently detailed to allow you (or anyone) to solve the problem. To be honest, I was really frustrated, and simply trying to gauge whether this was a common problem in which case maybe others have a way to help track down the source. The 'threat' was certainly not meant as such -- I AM seriously wondering if I should switch away. It will do no harm to Microsoft -- we have a campus license, it will always be on my computer, etc. but I AM truly thinking I should be assessing Apple's pages. I've already seen the value in doing so. For example, it is virtually impossible for me to put a graphic in a Word document and have it place where I want it, and stay there -- yes, I do not know enough about how to do this in Word, but have

 

[jrnz]

(Rest of message that was cut off -- size limit, I guess)...

Fair enough. My posting was not sufficiently detailed to allow you (or anyone) to solve the problem. To be honest, I was really frustrated, and simply trying to gauge whether this was a common problem in which case maybe others have a way to help track down the source. The 'threat' was certainly not meant as such -- I AM seriously wondering if I should switch away. It will do no harm to Microsoft -- we have a campus license, it will always be on my computer, etc. but I AM truly thinking I should be assessing Apple's pages. I've already seen the value in doing so. For example, it is virtually impossible for me to put a graphic in a Word document and have it place where I want it, and stay there -- yes, I do not know enough about how to do this in Word, but have been in DTP since its invention, so don't see why it has to be so complex in Word. So, when I couldn't figure out how to do it for an article that HAD to be supplied in MS Word format, I simply opened it in Pages, placed the graphics (very simply) exactly where I wanted them, and saved the file in Word format again. Perfect. That got me to thinking, why use Word in the first place. But again, you are right -- the comment did not belong in the query.

On Jul 24, 2009, at 6:09 AM, CyberTaz wrote:

I'm afraid my time is very limited at the moment but I would be glad to
explore your situation in more depth....

I'm sorry, I NEVER use autosave -- I can hit command-S any time I want and do so very frequently. I meant that Word offered to (auto-) Recover my document, but nothing typed in since the last save was evident anywhere -- we simply lost those changes and it opened up only a new blank document.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

Bob, I know you are busy, and I know I did NOT provide details to allow any kind of investigation into this problem. I thank you for responding, but just suggest we now wait until I can find replicable protocols to produce these issues, at which point I'll follow this up. Again, I was really just wondering if perhaps LOTS of other people had similar issues, but apparently not. But I too am busy and this note was out of sheer frustration at yet another dang crash. I don't see problems with any other applications, so it is easy to blame the behemoth!

 

[CyberTaz]

Thanks for the details. You've actually raised several issues but I'll try
to shed a little light on whatever I can

1- The file name issue may be associated with the depth of the hierarchy
involved. I have seen reference to something similar but usually involving
network drives. Try copying one of the problem files to an upper level
folder or even the Desktop. See if the copy presents the same problem. I'm
also wondering if it may have something to do with point #3 below.

2- Re the other crashes, not much to say about that without more specifics.
If you can muster up some additional details post a new message [as opposed
to replying to this thread] so that issue can be focused on separately.
However, it may also be related to point #3.

3- Word's internal file & document structure is totally antithetical to that
of a DTP program. They are object-oriented which treats physical pages as
structures & all content is "containerized" within boxes of some sort. Word
documents, OTOH, are a linear flow of text from beginning to end contained
in Paragraphs within Sections... There are no "pages" in a Word doc for
objects to be stapled to. All objects are in some way attached to the text
flow: either as In Line objects or as floating objects anchored to a
Paragraph. Therefore, as the text reflows so go the objects attached to it.
That's just the nutshell synopsis... If you want additional detail have a
look at the following links as well as the links within them:

http://word.mvps.org/Mac/PagesInWord.html

http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/DrawingGraphics.htm

Think about it: If you have a finished InDesign publication & change your
paper size from Letter to Tabloid or change the orientation from Portrait to
Landscape what happens to the flow of the content?... Nothing, and you still
wind up with the same number of pages you started with. Try that in a Word
document and watch how the document is instantly repaginated.

What you'll find in the final analysis is that controlling floating graphics
in a Word document is a challenge for even the most seasoned veteran who
understands how the machinery works. Additionally, extensive use &
manipulation of them within any one document is a likely source of file
corruption. Especially if Track Changes is used along with other
considerations you have a recipe for disaster. That may be why you're
experiencing some - if not all - of the crashes.

Depending on the length & complexity of your projects you might investigate
Word 2008's Publishing Layout View. It may be a bit more along the lines of
what you're accustomed to but *let me emphasize very strongly* it is by no
means the equivalent of InDesign, QuarkXPress, PageMaker, or any other app
designed as an object oriented environment.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[StephenBD]

I had a similar problem of failure to save changes to an already saved file. In my case it seems to be the length of the path that creates the problem.

A file called <Nothing could be simpler than the use of this Chart Fr+Eng.doc> would not save when in a folder nine levels deep. It WOULD save with that name on the desktop. It would also save in the original folder when given a short name <Nothing.doc>.

There was never a problem when using Office 2004.

Stephen

MacBook Pro 2.8 GHz Intel Core Duo
Mac OS X Leopard 10.5.8
Word 2008 12.2.0

 

[John McGhie]

Well, that's an Apple restriction. There is a limit to the length of an
HFS+ file name and path. I forget what it is.

When you issue the "Save" command, Word opens a Finder window: what you are
looking at from that moment is Apple OS X ‹ Word has nothing to do with it.

Cheers

I had a similar problem of failure to save changes to an already saved file.
In my case it seems to be the length of the path that creates the problem.

A file called <Nothing could be simpler than the use of this Chart Fr+Eng.doc>
would not save when in a folder nine levels deep. It WOULD save with that name
on the desktop. It would also save in the original folder when given a short
name <Nothing.doc>.

There was never a problem when using Office 2004.

Stephen

MacBook Pro 2.8 GHz Intel Core Duo
Mac OS X Leopard 10.5.8
Word 2008 12.2.0

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John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]