Word significantly slows down operation of other programs. Please help.

K

kimnjerry

Greetings.

I hope someone can help straighten this out. Whenever Word is open, the
spinning wheel appears and hangs up other programs for a lengthy period
of time. As an example, any Eudora operations hang up for over 30
seconds. When Word is not open, I don't have this problem.

I am operating OS 10.3.7 on a dual 450. Any information on the cause of
the problem and how to remedy it would be greatly appreciated.
 
M

matt neuburg

kimnjerry said:
Whenever Word is open, the
spinning wheel appears and hangs up other programs for a lengthy period
of time. As an example, any Eudora operations hang up for over 30
seconds. When Word is not open, I don't have this problem.

I am operating OS 10.3.7 on a dual 450

(1) How much RAM have you?

(2) What does top (or Activity Monitor) tell you about how much cpu Word
is using?

m.
 
E

Elliott Roper

kimnjerry said:
Thanks for your help, matt.
I have 512 MB RAM and Word is using 11% of the CPU.
Matt is probably onto somethiing.
Look at the pageouts and pageins in top
a good setting is top -u -s5 10
that will show 5 second snapshots of the top 10 cpu hogs
Look to see if pageouts and pageins are increasing when you perform
other operations. (there will be non-zero numbers inside the brackets
too)

It is the system's way of telling you there is not enough memory.
I think you will find that any fat bloated application will cause the
effect you are seeing with Word. ;-)
11% cpu is not unusual for Word sitting there doing nothing. Don't
worry about that. If something else really wants it, the OS and Word
will let it have it.
How long is it since you last logged out? Your swap files may be in a
tangled mess. That does wonders for performance too. You could go the
whole 9 yards and reboot your machine once a month.

Memory is cheap.
 
K

kimnjerry

Elliott:
Thanks for your time. I'm not technically oriented, so I don't
understand much of what you've said. Forgive me if I'm getting too
basic, but, if you have the time:
* What do you mean by "top?" What does "a good setting is top -u -s5
10" mean?
· What are pageouts and pageins?
· When you say "How long is it since you last logged out?" Are you
talking about shutting down the computer?
· I don't understand what "swap files" are...or how to untangle them.

· When you say "reboot the machine once a month," I suspect that's
not "restart," but another operation.

Having recently moved over from 9.2 (and not being very functional
there), I know how to re-build my desktop, but that's about it. I once
had the bright idea that I could use Spring Cleaning to make my old
iMac run more efficiently...and I wound up losing my entire system.
That should give you an idea who you're talking to.

If you have the time to respond, I'd appreciate it. If it's too much
work to explain it, I understand.

Thanks.
 
K

kimnjerry

Elliott:
Thanks for your time. I'm not technically oriented, so I don't
understand much of what you've said. Forgive me if I'm getting too
basic, but, if you have the time:
* What do you mean by "top?" What does "a good setting is top -u -s5
10" mean?
· What are pageouts and pageins?
· When you say "How long is it since you last logged out?" Are you
talking about shutting down the computer?
· I don't understand what "swap files" are...or how to untangle them.

· When you say "reboot the machine once a month," I suspect that's
not "restart," but another operation.

Having recently moved over from 9.2 (and not being very functional
there), I know how to re-build my desktop, but that's about it. I once
had the bright idea that I could use Spring Cleaning to make my old
iMac run more efficiently...and I wound up losing my entire system.
That should give you an idea who you're talking to.

If you have the time to respond, I'd appreciate it. If it's too much
work to explain it, I understand.

Thanks.
 
E

Elliott Roper

kimnjerry said:
Elliott:
Thanks for your time. I'm not technically oriented, so I don't
understand much of what you've said. Forgive me if I'm getting too
basic, but, if you have the time:
Heh! I asked for that. Here we go!!
* What do you mean by "top?"
It is one of those unixy command line things. It displays a few
interesting tidbits about the internal state of your system.

First bring up a terminal window. Its in
Applications->Utilities->terminal

Type the magic incantation 'top -u -s5 10' right after where it says
something like
Welcome to Darwin!
Whatever:~ Jerry$

and press return.
You will then get a display like this:

Processes: 70 total, 2 running, 68 sleeping... 192 threads 22:12:41
Load Avg:0.53, 0.25, 0.12 CPU usage: 5.1% user, 9.4% sys, 85.5% idle
SharedLibs: num =123, resident = 49.2M code, 4.04M data, 19.1M LinkEdit
MemRegions: num = 11626, resident = 197M + 14.2M private, 234M shared
PhysMem: 90.9M wired, 295M active, 358M inactive, 745M used, 22.6M free
VM: 6.21G + 83.6M 95680(0) pageins, 21698(0) pageouts

PID COMMAND %CPU TIME #TH #PRTS #MREGS RPRVT RSHRD RSIZE VSIZE
1718 top 5.4% 0:01.13 1 16 25 304K 492K 704K 27.1M
1710 Terminal 2.4% 0:04.28 3 66 190 2.26M+ 34.6M+ 8.60M+
and another 8 lines that change every 5 seconds too.
· What are pageouts and pageins?
OK you see them in the sample above?
A pagein happens when you start running a program, or even start
running a bit of it that has not yet been exercised, and when its data
is paged back in after being paged out (see later) What is happening is
that pages of memory are being read from the disk where a copy of the
program has been kept.
Sometimes there is not enough memory free. In that case, bits of
another program that are not currently being used, and bits and pieces
of the data it is operating on are paged out to make room. The data is
squirreled away in special files called swap files.
Later, when that stuff is needed again, it is paged back in.
So if the count of all the pageouts and pageins keeps going up, it
means that you do not have enough memory in your machine, and the
operating system is 'swapping' too heavily.
The system displays that spinning beachball while that is goingn on.
Don't worry about large numbers in there as long as they are not going
up by a few hundred every five seconds.
The OS is quite sly and efficient about swapping stuff in and out, but
if the sum of all the programs and data is far greater than the memory
to hold it all, the swap files grow bigger and bigger and there are
more and more of them created over time. Because the order in which the
pageouts occur depends on all sorts of random events, and where the
data gets swapped to depends on where the system can find a clear bit
of swapfile space, over time, the swapfiles become a bit of a mess.
· When you say "How long is it since you last logged out?" Are you
talking about shutting down the computer?
When a program is quit, its swap file space is no longer needed, yet
there may be fragments of many other programs sharing a particular swap
file, so it may take a long time for a particular swap file to become
completely unused, when the system will delete it.
· I don't understand what "swap files" are...or how to untangle them.
OK, I think I managed to explain swap files already.
Untangling happens when you log out - all your programs will quit at
once and swap files will magically evaporate, because when all your
programs will quit at once, complete swap files will become unused. The
swap files will be replaced by clean fresh ones when next you log in
and start lots of programs up again and overfill your memory.

(If you do not know what log in and log out are, that is because you
have set your system up to automatically log you in. Otherwise you will
see a panel asking for your name and password before the machine will
let you do anything to it.)
· When you say "reboot the machine once a month," I suspect that's
not "restart," but another operation.
Sorry, the jargon crept in there. It is the same thing.
If you turn the machine off when you finish each day, that should keep
the swapfiles tidy, unless you are very short of memory.

I like to leave my Powerbook running for months on end, simply because
I like how fast it wakes from sleep, with everything as I left it. For
me, with 768MB of memory and fairly modest numbers of bloated sotware
active at any time, logging out every few days keeps it tidy enough.
(You ought to see my desk - that's something else entirely.)
If you have the time to respond, I'd appreciate it. If it's too much
work to explain it, I understand.
PS - another trick to keep your machine in good shape is to leave it
switched on overnight every now and then. All kinds of magic cleanups
schedule themselves in the dead of night.

I think that your 512MB, shared among two processors is a bit on the
light side. You will see pageouts climbing. In that case beefing your
total memory to 1GB will be like having a new computer.

Finally, I have oversimplified the narrative quite a lot. If you want
to find out more, ask again. There are a lot of people here who have a
plenty of experience in making sure that Word runs as swiftly as it
should.
 
K

kimnjerry

Elliott:

Thanks for taking the time to school me. What I get from the various
Apple-centric discussions is that this is a community of people who are
eager to assist each other. last year, I took a group of 150 Mac loving
high school kids to Cupertino for an unveiling of the G5, which, for
them, was better than, well, you know. The black cloak was removed and
the crowd burst into applause. The engineering team passed parts of the
G5 around the auditorium, and the kids treated them like diamonds. Then
they went up on stage and posed for photos of themselves with the G5.
You'd have thought they were standing with a rock star.

On to the task at hand. It is a feeling of awesome power to actually be
entering a Unix command! (Actually, it took a few times before I got
the spacing correct) But here's what I got:

Processes: 50 total, 2 running, 48 sleeping... 130 threads
17:05:58
Load Avg: 1.04, 0.88, 0.57 CPU usage: 38.6% user, 7.6% sys, 53.8%
idle
SharedLibs: num = 114, resident = 23.8M code, 2.54M data, 5.30M
LinkEdit
MemRegions: num = 5949, resident = 136M + 7.91M private, 82.7M shared
PhysMem: 52.4M wired, 276M active, 175M inactive, 505M used, 6.88M
free
VM: 3.03G + 80.6M 41544(5) pageins, 5490(0) pageouts

PID COMMAND %CPU TIME #TH #PRTS #MREGS RPRVT RSHRD RSIZE
VSIZE
2613 Terminal 43.5% 0:04.46 3 61 119 1.79M+ 7.68M 14.1M+
91.2M
427 Eudora 24.8% 6:31.29 5 197 411 18.1M 31.4M 37.4M
182M
428 Safari 5.3% 34:00.43 7 239 907 66.8M 37.1M 50.9M
192M
185 WindowServ 3.8% 21:21.26 3 239 331 8.99M- 37.8M 27.5M-
117M-
2621 top 3.4% 0:07.43 1 16 26 276K 404K 652K
27.1M
431 Activity M 3.2% 12:57.17 2 69 139 3.80M- 14.8M 17.4M
116M
363 SystemUISe 2.6% 8:50.81 1 197 192 2.07M 7.14M 15.4M
93.5M
432 pmTool 2.3% 7:41.44 1 21 25 376K 344K 1.34M
27.1M
0 kernel_tas 2.1% 3:21.61 34 2 1254 9.07M 0K 42.5M
593M
364 Finder 1.1% 2:33.01 5 176 294 5.07M 23.2M 22.0M
138M

then, when I opened Word,

Processes: 52 total, 3 running, 49 sleeping... 137 threads
17:16:23
Load Avg: 1.20, 1.07, 0.82 CPU usage: 10.8% user, 3.7% sys, 85.5%
idle
SharedLibs: num = 114, resident = 24.4M code, 2.57M data, 5.40M
LinkEdit
MemRegions: num = 6353, resident = 147M + 8.66M private, 119M shared
PhysMem: 52.7M wired, 295M active, 157M inactive, 505M used, 6.05M
free
VM: 3.27G + 80.6M 41895(0) pageins, 5525(0) pageouts

PID COMMAND %CPU TIME #TH #PRTS #MREGS RPRVT RSHRD RSIZE
VSIZE
2624 Microsoft 10.7% 0:05.78 5 89 233 8.72M 45.0M 24.2M
147M
432 pmTool 4.2% 7:57.71 1 21 25 376K 344K 1.34M
27.1M
2621 top 4.2% 0:31.02 1 18 26 280K 404K 656K
27.1M
431 Activity M 4.0% 13:23.69 2 69 140 3.81M+ 15.2M 17.3M+
116M
428 Safari 1.5% 35:32.85 7 239 906 66.8M 38.2M 51.2M
192M
364 Finder 1.3% 2:36.84 5 176 294 5.07M 24.2M 22.0M
138M
363 SystemUISe 1.1% 8:59.74 1 197 192 2.07M 7.51M 15.4M
93.5M
185 WindowServ 0.9% 21:34.53 3 255 344 9.21M+ 41.5M 31.1M+
123M+
0 kernel_tas 0.3% 3:28.04 34 2 1292 9.39M 0K 42.8M
593M
2613 Terminal 0.3% 0:10.44 3 61 126 1.77M 8.20M 14.6M
91.7M

My eyes are glazing over a bit...but I understand the concept. I do
have the computer set for auto log in, as well as auto shutdown and
start up (and I do understand log in/out, of course, just didn't
connect the dots in that context). If I understand you correctly, it
would be a good idea to cancel that and let the machine occasionally
run all night for self-healing, and also to shut the thing down to
clean it out.

What's puzzling is that Word X doesn't seem much different from Word
98, which didn't cause any problems in my puny 233 (assuming that Word
X is the problem herein). And I usually don't have 20 different
programs running at once...mainly because I don't know how to use 20
different programs.

Bottom line that I understand from your comments is that I should
double the memory, and I probably won't have problems.

It would also be helpful if Utilities were designed for people like me,
so that the instruction would be (rather than an indecipherable error
code message) comprehensibe. But I digress.

Thanks again for your assistance and for taking the time to dumb it
down for me. If you have any other suggestions, let me know.
Happy Holidays,
Jerry Kaiser
 
P

Paul Berkowitz

It would also be helpful if Utilities were designed for people like me,
so that the instruction would be (rather than an indecipherable error
code message) comprehensibe.

They are. Since you have Panther, you could have taken Matt's other
suggestion and simply launched Activity Monitor in /Applications/Utilities/.
Try it. For some reason Elliott showed you the hard way. Yes, you have way
too little RAM. You need at least 768 MB - but RAM is so cheap now you'd be
much better just getting an extra 512. A Dual 450 (? I'd forgotten these
ever existed) - I think they were the very first duals in 2000?) is pretty
weak as well for today's software like OS 10.3.7 and Word 2004 or X, so you
need every bit of RAM you can manage.

--
Paul Berkowitz
MVP MacOffice
Entourage FAQ Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/faq/index.html>
AppleScripts for Entourage: <http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/>

Please "Reply To Newsgroup" to reply to this message. Emails will be
ignored.

PLEASE always state which version of Microsoft Office you are using -
**2004**, X or 2001. It's often impossible to answer your questions
otherwise.
 
K

kimnjerry

Matt:

Thanks! I've downloaded MemoryStick. This is a great education, and I
appreciate it.

I've read your "Understanding MemoryStick." Your "wildly
over-simplified lecture" is exactly what I need and and I'm actually
learning how the OS works.

What the non-technical person like me needs is the ability to visualize
the content and process; the ability to make mental maps of what's
being described. None of the application manuals I've read (or, rather,
attempted to read) have been written toward that end (or audience).
This certainly is. If you have any other "brief and wildly
over-simplified" material, I'd love to see it.

The one place I'm still confused is why the SCOD (I assume it's the
"spinning circle of death") shows up in every function in Eudora, far
more so than in other programs, and also why, when I only have a couple
programs open at one time, my 512 isn't sufficient. Perhaps more study
of what you and Elliott are saying will explain that. MemoryStick tells
me I'm currently at 11% Wired, 53% Active, 30% Inactive, and 6% free.
Guess that means I need more memory.
Again, thanks very much.

Happy Holidays.
Jerry Kaiser
 
K

kimnjerry

Paul:

Thanks for your message. I don't agree that utilities are designed for
people like me. Matt's "understanding MemoryStick" page uses
terminology I understand. I did launch Activity Monitor, but I didn't
understand much of what I saw. It may be that, like the Mac OS, the
utility is user-friendly in its design, but I don't find it such in its
content. For me, there's sophisticated terminology and definitions
thereof which are, more often than not, confusing and written by-and
for-technical people.

We all have our strengths and learning styles. Mine are not technical,
and I did not grow up with computers. I'm comfortable speaking in front
of several thousand people, but I sure don't understand the
neurophysiological processes which enable me to do that.

I'll take your advice on beefing up the RAM and appreciate the feedback
on the computer.

Best wishes,
Jerry Kaiser
 
M

matt neuburg

kimnjerry said:
Matt:

Thanks! I've downloaded MemoryStick. This is a great education, and I
appreciate it.

I've read your "Understanding MemoryStick." Your "wildly
over-simplified lecture" is exactly what I need and and I'm actually
learning how the OS works.

What the non-technical person like me needs is the ability to visualize
the content and process; the ability to make mental maps of what's
being described. None of the application manuals I've read (or, rather,
attempted to read) have been written toward that end (or audience).
This certainly is. If you have any other "brief and wildly
over-simplified" material, I'd love to see it.

I have written several books and ebooks (including stuff about Microsoft
Word), and they are all "brief and wildly over-simplified". Except for
the ones that are "huge and massively detailed," that is. :)
The one place I'm still confused is why the SCOD (I assume it's the
"spinning circle of death") shows up in every function in Eudora, far
more so than in other programs, and also why, when I only have a couple
programs open at one time, my 512 isn't sufficient

I'd need to see your machine in action in order to get clearer on those
points myself. (Feel free to bring it right over!) But one thing to
understand is that although you say there are just "a couple programs"
open, in fact there are lots of processes running, as "top" and the
Activity Monitor show you, and they all require memory. Mac OS X itself
is just plain memory-hungry. One thing you did not talk about in your
note above is what *number* MemoryStick shows you, telling you how many
swapfiles you've got. But, to give an example, if you try to run Mac OS
X with just 256MB of RAM, you'll have 3 swapfiles right after startup,
before you even open one application. That shows you how much memory Mac
OS X needs just to get going at all. If MemoryStick ever shows you a
number larger than 1, you are generating swapfiles and should consider
restarting the computer. If it does this a lot, you should consider
installing more RAM if possible.

So, to sum up, it could well be that given your work habits, your 512MB
really just isn't sufficient.

However, I am not satisfied that we have solved the problem we started
with. You make the key point that only Eudora seems to be giving you
trouble. I don't know what to say about that; perhaps you should take it
up with the Eudora people. However, my guess is that Eudora is
particularly RAM-hungry - in fact, I believe that it works by loading
all your messages into RAM at once. Since you haven't enough RAM, that
would explain the matter right there. So, try either getting more RAM or
deleting some of your Eudora mailboxes (or both) and see if that helps.

m.
 
P

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T.

matt said:
Look at all those pageouts. And how look how little free RAM you have! -
Run my free app MemoryStick - I bet you'll hear it dinging all over the
place. It will tell you immediately whether you have enough RAM for what
you're doing. The next time you get the SCOD in Eudora look in
MemoryStick to see if you generated an extra swapfile during that delay
- if so, insufficient RAM is definitely the problem here. m.
Hey matt. went to your site and attempted to download memeory stick. all
I ot was hundreds of line of code. is your server set right?


--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://home.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://vpea.exis.net>
 
M

matt neuburg

Phillip M. Jones said:
Hey matt. went to your site and attempted to download memeory stick. all
I ot was hundreds of line of code. is your server set right?

It ain't *my* server, don't look at me. :) Actually the problem is more
likely your browser (hey, yeah, let's blame each other!!!!) - you should
be able to control-click the link and tell your browser to download
rather than showing in the window. m.
 
J

JE McGimpsey

It ain't *my* server, don't look at me. :) Actually the problem is more
likely your browser (hey, yeah, let's blame each other!!!!) - you should
be able to control-click the link and tell your browser to download
rather than showing in the window. m.

Worked fine for me with Safari 1.2.4
 
F

Fredrik Wahlgren

JE McGimpsey said:
Worked fine for me with Safari 1.2.4

You get strange characters if you click on the file from Windows. In this
case, right click on the link and select "Save as".

/ Fredrik
 
M

matt neuburg

Fredrik Wahlgren said:
You get strange characters if you click on the file from Windows

If you're in Windows, don't download this app!
In this
case, right click on the link and select "Save as".

That's what I said. Only I said in Mac-language. m.
 
E

Elliott Roper

matt neuburg said:
That's what I said. Only I said in Mac-language. m.

It's cute. I could have spared Jerry a lot of terminal pain had I known
about your clever memory stick.

I had great fun seeing how fast I could make the bell ring.
 
M

matt neuburg

Elliott Roper said:
a lot of terminal pain

I hope you don't mean that like it sounds!
It's cute. I could have spared Jerry a lot of terminal pain had I known
about your clever memory stick.
I had great fun seeing how fast I could make the bell ring.

Elliott, you've completely misunderstood this program. (Hey, you're
right, that *is* fun....)

:)))) m.
 
P

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T.

matt said:
It ain't *my* server, don't look at me. :) Actually the problem is more
likely your browser (hey, yeah, let's blame each other!!!!) - you should
be able to control-click the link and tell your browser to download
rather than showing in the window. m.
What I did was was wait until all the code downloaded then chose Save as
and it saved as .gz file. anyway I got it working.

I've seen other .gz files and downloed them without the code ittself
showing.

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://home.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://vpea.exis.net>
 

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