Word07 Outline won't properly number

[Geodesic]

This is the fourth time I have tried to ask this question in
'word.general.questions' but it never make it to the list. I am not sure if
there are intermediaries involved or technical problems. And yes, I am
waiting many hours between posts.

Like many of you, I am frustrated, disappointed, even angry at how
complicated and counterintuitive the use of outlines is in Word07. I am not
looking to create a complicated environment in which different 'levels' are
connected to very different formats. I simply want to create outlines in
which
(1.) it is easy to move elements around (to promote or demote, to move up
or down),
(2.) in which elements can be expanded or collapsed,
(3.) all with a coherent numbering scheme.

This is easy in OneNote07 where it is the default. I finally managed this
long ago in WordXP, but not without hard wiring my 'headings' so that only
one system was acceptable. Still I did it, having to "program" WordXP to even
get it to produce the most basic outlines. While I have had Word07 for over a
year I still cannot get it to produce even the most basic outline.

I should point out that if one uses the "help" of Word 07, and ask how to
create an multilevel outline, I am forwarded to how to create multilevel
numbered lists, lists which don't have the ability to expand and collapse
lower levels. This seems a flaw. When I search around further, I am
forwarded to websites that explain outlines for earlier versions of Word
(where the link between levels was clearer).

So here's the problem more simply:

Suppose I want to create a simple 1/a/1/a/ outline. I go to the outline tab
at the bottom of any page. I type something in the blank codument and assume
that Word 07 will believe I am at 'Level I.' It is unclear because, of
course, I have to go back to the Home tab on the ribbon in order to see what
style is being used, such as 'Heading 1'. I then go to the paragraph subset
of the home tab and choose multilevel outline. I see the "define new
multilevel list' option which gives some indication of what level I'm at.'

I see 1.) appear at the beginning of the first line. I hit return, see the
second element with its 2.) appear. I now demote that elements using the
shortcut shft-alt-right arrow, expecting it to turn into 'a.)' (I could use
the arrow). But while the heading on the styles above does shift to 'Heading
2,' the number sequence does not change! So I end up with outlines that look
proceed serially not like a multilevel list
1.
2.
3.
4.

If the links between the levels and the headings are broken, why is it so
hard to find any information on the Microsoft websites to fix this? Again, I
have followed other information that the Microsoft website has provided since
I simply want to begin with the "format" of each level to be the same - I
don't want blue fonts, bold or italics, changes in the space between
paragraph elements, etc. I simply want a simple outline, but with more
functionality than a numbered list (eg. including ability to expand and
collapse). In the future I might decide at some level might be bold or not.

For the record, using 'modify style,' these are the styles of the headings:

Heading 1 : Font: (Asian) +Headings Asian, (Default) Calibri, 12 pt,
Justified, Line spacing: Multiple 1.15 li, Widow/Orphan control, Keep with
next, Keep lines together, Level 1, Style: Linked, Quick Style, Priority: 10,
Following style: Normal

Heading2: Level 2, Style: Linked, Hide until used, Quick Style, Priority:
10, Based on: Heading 1, Following style: Normal

Heading3: Level 3, Style: Linked, Hide until used, Quick Style, Priority:
10, Based on: Heading 2, Following style: Normal

Etc. (I don't know anything about this Asian heading). So is there any hope
of creating even the most basic outline which will look something like:
1.
a.
b.
2.

I hope this gets through (and FYI, I am using the Vista64 OS). As a College
Prof. who has also taught writing, I would love to have a straightforward way
to explain how to create outlines in Word for college level students. At
this point, I'm sure they're ready to jump to OpenOffice or some other
competitor. I have told them that outlines are very useful for writing
documents, but I can not longer produce them in MS-Word 2007. G.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I have seen at least one previous post from you with identical content and
replied to it, but you may find it easier to find the messages you have
posted if you post in the Numbering newsgroup, which has much lower traffic.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

 

[Geodesic]

Well, I am glad my post finally made it to the list. Perhaps the repeated
non-sends had to do with the way I was closing my submissions (this time I
used 'close' inside of Internet Explorer, rather than just 'post'). And yes,
I can now see that the USENET Vehicle for
microsoft.public.word.docmanagement. That is not clear from the official
Microsoft website that brought me here.

I hope it is clear that I want to create a "multilevel outline" and *not* a
"multilevel list". Period.

Yes, I can see the multilevel *list* tab with such options as, 'define new
list style' and 'define new multilevel list.' However, no matter what indent
or numbering scheme is used and meant to show up in the print layout, every
line in the list is set as "body text". This fact (appears to) offer no
functionality to *expand* or *collapse* sub-elements.

Whil to add this functionality, eone must invest a serious amount of time
on resetting the 'heading sty'es.' I am making some headway on programming
each 'heading style', I still don't see the way to link level, so that one
would get:
1.
1.1
1.2
1.2.1
2.

One can go to the strip/home/styles/heading 1/[right-click]/modify
style/format tab/numbering and bullets/define new number format... but there
no longer seems to be a link between levels as there was in Word 2003 when
you try to redefine 'Heading 2'

Again, I think it is a mistake that when I search on "multi-level outline"
on the official Microsoft Office website I am sent to Multilevel list."
Shauna Kelly's tutorial does not appear to be updated for 2007 despite what
it says at the bottom.

I think a single clear explanation of how to create ewould prove useful

 

[Geodesic]

Well, I am glad my post finally made it to the list. Perhaps the repeated
non-sends had to do with the way I was closing my submissions (this time I
used 'close' inside of Internet Explorer, rather than just 'post'). And yes,
I can now see that the USENET Vehicle for
microsoft.public.word.docmanagement. That is not clear from the official
Microsoft website that brought me here.

I hope it is clear that I want to create a "multilevel outline" and *not* a
"multilevel list". Period.

Yes, I can see the multilevel *list* tab with such options as, 'define new
list style' and 'define new multilevel list.' However, no matter what indent
or numbering scheme is used and meant to show up in the print layout, every
line in the list is set as "body text". This fact (appears to) offer no
functionality to *expand* or *collapse* sub-elements.

Whil to add this functionality, eone must invest a serious amount of time
on resetting the 'heading sty'es.' I am making some headway on programming
each 'heading style', I still don't see the way to link level, so that one
would get:
1.
1.1
1.2
1.2.1
2.

One can go to the strip/home/styles/heading 1/[right-click]/modify
style/format tab/numbering and bullets/define new number format... but there
no longer seems to be a link between levels as there was in Word 2003 when
you try to redefine 'Heading 2'

Again, I think it is a mistake that when I search on "multi-level outline"
on the official Microsoft Office website I am sent to Multilevel list."
Shauna Kelly's tutorial does not appear to be updated for 2007 despite what
it says at the bottom.

I think a single clear explanation of how to create a interconnected,
expandable/collapseable outline would prove useful to the list.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Click on the Multilevel list button and then on the illustration that shows
1, 1.1, 1.1.1 linked to Heading 1, Heading 2, Heading 3, etc. *Then* click
Define New Multilevel List, which will open the dialog with that list
template selected. From there, the Define New Multilevel List dialog is more
or less identical to the Customize Outline-Numbered List dialog in Word
2003, although arranged a little differently. Click More to expand the
dialog, and you will see that the levels are linked to the built-in heading
styles by default.

If you use an NNTP newsreader such as Outlook Express or Windows Live Mail
to read these newsgroups in Usenet, you'll doubtless find posting (and
finding your posts) much easier. See http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

 

[Geodesic]

I can't tell if my messages are going through. When I tried to post I get
the following error message:
Originally I thought this meant that the posting had gone through, but that
the site update would take time because there was too much traffic. But then
I let an hour go by and I still don't see the posting, I don't see that
Microsoft has a discussion group about the problems with their own Microsoft
office on line discussion group software. But then that would recursively a
problem since how do you post about a posting problem.

Original Response.

If you use an NNTP newsreader such as Outlook Express or Windows Live Mail
to read these newsgroups in Usenet, you'll doubtless find posting (and
finding your posts) much easier. See http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm

I really don't know much about Outlook Express or anything about Windows
Live Mail. Because of compatibility issues with my telephone and
office/academic software, I finally migrated to Outlook 07 about a year ago.
I know that Outlook Express evolved from a newsreader of some sort and was
promoted as the free version of Outlook. However, back in the 1980s when
USENET was one of the few common, open, global bulletin board systems I
simply used the free version of Agent to access discussions and compile
binaries (since unix tn etc had interface challenges). That is why I am
still sensitive to the fact that USENET is independent of the Web. That
said, I am simply trying to come to the Microsoft website to get answers for
what I think should be a relatively basic problem for their Microsoft Word
07. They are the ones who forwarded me to this Microsoft office online
discussion group system. I can still find no evidence of any other 'recent'
submissions on outlines, so I thank you for:
1. Responding and
2. Returning to this thread to respond.
If you don't like my inability to find other threads, then you should take
it up with Microsoft.

Click on the Multilevel list button and then on the illustration that shows
1, 1.1, 1.1.1 linked to Heading 1, Heading 2, Heading 3, etc. *Then* click
Define New Multilevel List, which will open the dialog with that list
template selected. From there, the Define New Multilevel List dialog is more
or less identical to the Customize Outline-Numbered List dialog in Word
2003, although arranged a little differently. Click More to expand the
dialog, and you will see that the levels are linked to the built-in heading
styles by default.

This did not work.

The multilevel list dialogue seems to be associated with normal textual work
and not outlines. Moving elements around with the whole window open
immediately broke any connection that a 1/1.1/1.1.1/ numbering system might
have with an outline. Shifting to the outline view ribbon tab revealed that
once again Word seem to be creating a multilevel list as opposed to a
multilevel outline, with things working out of body text. No ability to
expand or contract sub elements.

And of course in the outline view one cannot see which headings one is using
ahead of time, unless I guess one customizes the ribbon in some way. Is that
what I need to tell college students to do? I am still not sure why creation
of an numbering scheme for the outline would not be on the outline part of
the ribbon.

Returning to the general home ribbon: multilevel list / list and current
document is 1/1.1/1.1.1... / define a new multilevel list.. and the expanded
dialogue reveals
apply changes to - the whole list,
link level to style - no style,
level to show in gallery - level I,
ListNum field list name - nothing
And down below their various alignment issues and ways to link one level to
the other as you change which level to modify.

If I am in the ordinary print view, there is no sort of indentation that one
might associate with an outline. And if you shift to outline view, all the
connections appear broken. For example, if I use the right arrow to shift to
level III, there is no numbering scheme at all, no 1.1.1. Just text,
although with a plus or minus in a gray circle to indicate that I'm using
outline elements.

In the outline view, if I right-click on something that is at "level III"
the resulting dialogue suggests that there is no numbering scheme, and the
only thing that I am allowed to put in is a number or letter, nothing to do
with a multilevel scheme anymore. And if I go back to the home ribbon,
multilevel list, it still says that I am using 1/1.1/1.1.1... numbering
scheme, but the none is now highlighted.

This is not like Word 2003. This is very different. Thanks.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Well, I am glad my post finally made it to the list. Perhaps the repeated
non-sends had to do with the way I was closing my submissions (this time I
used 'close' inside of Internet Explorer, rather than just 'post'). And
yes,
I can now see that the USENET Vehicle for
microsoft.public.word.docmanagement. That is not clear from the official
Microsoft website that brought me here.

I hope it is clear that I want to create a "multilevel outline" and *not*
a
"multilevel list". Period.

Yes, I can see the multilevel *list* tab with such options as, 'define new
list style' and 'define new multilevel list.' However, no matter what
indent
or numbering scheme is used and meant to show up in the print layout,
every
line in the list is set as "body text". This fact (appears to) offer no
functionality to *expand* or *collapse* sub-elements.

Whil to add this functionality, eone must invest a serious amount of time
on resetting the 'heading sty'es.' I am making some headway on
programming
each 'heading style', I still don't see the way to link level, so that one
would get:
1.
1.1
1.2
1.2.1
2.

One can go to the strip/home/styles/heading 1/[right-click]/modify
style/format tab/numbering and bullets/define new number format... but
there
no longer seems to be a link between levels as there was in Word 2003 when
you try to redefine 'Heading 2'

Again, I think it is a mistake that when I search on "multi-level outline"
on the official Microsoft Office website I am sent to Multilevel list."
Shauna Kelly's tutorial does not appear to be updated for 2007 despite
what
it says at the bottom.

I think a single clear explanation of how to create ewould prove useful

.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

If you apply the 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 numbering to the built-in heading styles,
then the heading styles will be numbered as you prefer (including indents).
Keep in mind that it is still necessary to do this all at once for all the
styles, starting from the first Heading 1 in the document (see
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html for general
principles). You can then apply the heading styles to achieve the desired
outline and Promote/Demote as desired.

There's no reason you can't still use Free Agent to access these NGs; just
configure it to access the msnews.microsoft.com server. If you are more
comfortable with an NNTP newsreader, I would highly recommend it. You will
see the same NGs you see here (the Web page is just a front end to Usenet).
I mentioned Outlook Express and Windows Live Mail because they are readily
available to Windows/Internet Explorer users. OE was not designed as a "free
version of Outlook"; Outlook is not a newsreader, whereas OE is both a mail
client and a newsreader. It is possible to set Outlook up to use OE as its
newsreader.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

I can't tell if my messages are going through. When I tried to post I get
the following error message:
Originally I thought this meant that the posting had gone through, but
that
the site update would take time because there was too much traffic. But
then
I let an hour go by and I still don't see the posting, I don't see that
Microsoft has a discussion group about the problems with their own
Microsoft
office on line discussion group software. But then that would recursively
a
problem since how do you post about a posting problem.

Original Response.

If you use an NNTP newsreader such as Outlook Express or Windows Live
Mail
to read these newsgroups in Usenet, you'll doubtless find posting (and
finding your posts) much easier. See http://www.gmayor.com/MSNews.htm

I really don't know much about Outlook Express or anything about Windows
Live Mail. Because of compatibility issues with my telephone and
office/academic software, I finally migrated to Outlook 07 about a year
ago.
I know that Outlook Express evolved from a newsreader of some sort and was
promoted as the free version of Outlook. However, back in the 1980s when
USENET was one of the few common, open, global bulletin board systems I
simply used the free version of Agent to access discussions and compile
binaries (since unix tn etc had interface challenges). That is why I am
still sensitive to the fact that USENET is independent of the Web. That
said, I am simply trying to come to the Microsoft website to get answers
for
what I think should be a relatively basic problem for their Microsoft Word
07. They are the ones who forwarded me to this Microsoft office online
discussion group system. I can still find no evidence of any other
'recent'
submissions on outlines, so I thank you for:
1. Responding and
2. Returning to this thread to respond.
If you don't like my inability to find other threads, then you should take
it up with Microsoft.

Click on the Multilevel list button and then on the illustration that
shows
1, 1.1, 1.1.1 linked to Heading 1, Heading 2, Heading 3, etc. *Then*
click
Define New Multilevel List, which will open the dialog with that list
template selected. From there, the Define New Multilevel List dialog is
more
or less identical to the Customize Outline-Numbered List dialog in Word
2003, although arranged a little differently. Click More to expand the
dialog, and you will see that the levels are linked to the built-in
heading
styles by default.

This did not work.

The multilevel list dialogue seems to be associated with normal textual
work
and not outlines. Moving elements around with the whole window open
immediately broke any connection that a 1/1.1/1.1.1/ numbering system
might
have with an outline. Shifting to the outline view ribbon tab revealed
that
once again Word seem to be creating a multilevel list as opposed to a
multilevel outline, with things working out of body text. No ability to
expand or contract sub elements.

And of course in the outline view one cannot see which headings one is
using
ahead of time, unless I guess one customizes the ribbon in some way. Is
that
what I need to tell college students to do? I am still not sure why
creation
of an numbering scheme for the outline would not be on the outline part of
the ribbon.

Returning to the general home ribbon: multilevel list / list and current
document is 1/1.1/1.1.1... / define a new multilevel list.. and the
expanded
dialogue reveals
apply changes to - the whole list,
link level to style - no style,
level to show in gallery - level I,
ListNum field list name - nothing
And down below their various alignment issues and ways to link one level
to
the other as you change which level to modify.

If I am in the ordinary print view, there is no sort of indentation that
one
might associate with an outline. And if you shift to outline view, all the
connections appear broken. For example, if I use the right arrow to shift
to
level III, there is no numbering scheme at all, no 1.1.1. Just text,
although with a plus or minus in a gray circle to indicate that I'm using
outline elements.

In the outline view, if I right-click on something that is at "level III"
the resulting dialogue suggests that there is no numbering scheme, and the
only thing that I am allowed to put in is a number or letter, nothing to
do
with a multilevel scheme anymore. And if I go back to the home ribbon,
multilevel list, it still says that I am using 1/1.1/1.1.1... numbering
scheme, but the none is now highlighted.

This is not like Word 2003. This is very different. Thanks.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Well, I am glad my post finally made it to the list. Perhaps the
repeated
non-sends had to do with the way I was closing my submissions (this
time I
used 'close' inside of Internet Explorer, rather than just 'post').
And
yes,
I can now see that the USENET Vehicle for
microsoft.public.word.docmanagement. That is not clear from the
official
Microsoft website that brought me here.

I hope it is clear that I want to create a "multilevel outline" and
*not*
a
"multilevel list". Period.

Yes, I can see the multilevel *list* tab with such options as, 'define
new
list style' and 'define new multilevel list.' However, no matter what
indent
or numbering scheme is used and meant to show up in the print layout,
every
line in the list is set as "body text". This fact (appears to) offer
no
functionality to *expand* or *collapse* sub-elements.

Whil to add this functionality, eone must invest a serious amount of
time
on resetting the 'heading sty'es.' I am making some headway on
programming
each 'heading style', I still don't see the way to link level, so that
one
would get:
1.
1.1
1.2
1.2.1
2.

One can go to the strip/home/styles/heading 1/[right-click]/modify
style/format tab/numbering and bullets/define new number format... but
there
no longer seems to be a link between levels as there was in Word 2003
when
you try to redefine 'Heading 2'

Again, I think it is a mistake that when I search on "multi-level
outline"
on the official Microsoft Office website I am sent to Multilevel list."
Shauna Kelly's tutorial does not appear to be updated for 2007 despite
what
it says at the bottom.

I think a single clear explanation of how to create ewould prove useful

.

 

[Geodesic]

Still no luck.

Thanks for the reply. Again, my goal: to create a multi-level outline as
opposed to a multi-level list, with a coherent numbering scheme. I am hoping
for a clear enough explanation so that I might teach college students how to
do it, and they could feel comfortable using their own multi-level of
outlines.

Now, if one searches on the Internet 'Word 2007 multilevel outline' one will
come up with documents like these, which I consulted before ever seeking to
bother re-asking something already solved:

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/HA100650171033.aspx - 'Create a
multilevel list' [not multilevel outline]
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html - 'Focused
on Word 2003 and earlier.'

So yes I have tried to work through the Shauna Kelly suggestions, which of
course may have contributed to problems. More on this in a moment. So as I
have said, I am working to create a multilevel outline not a multilevel list
so that 1.) expand or hide lower-level elements, and 2.) greater control
over the formatting of each level. Now, no sooner do I select some
multi-level list format, then it immediately breaks/disappears in either the
print view or the outline view. Yes, I am working with the 'define new
multilevel list' values, but what should the baseline values look like, and
what should the simplest 'heading values' look like?

One point of concern *I* have is that my settings for 'link level to style:'
at each level reads: '(no style)'. I don't remember changing anything, but
maybe that is a problem. A general FAQ for all users would help. If I begin
changing all of these values, and the outline still fail to create a
numbering system, then having a list of the original values would be ideal.

Possible solutions.
1. Create a FAQ listing the ideal, basic, plain values for the expanded
"define new multilevel list" dialogue - what should the "link level to style"
"listnum field list name" etc., values be set to? As factory setting-ish as
possible!

2. Create a FAQ listing the ideal baseline values for the 9 heading styles.
For example, my 'Heading 2' reads, "Level 2, Style: Linked, Hide until used,
Quick Style, Priority: 10, Based on: Heading 1, Following style: Normal."
Working with the document suggestions of Shawna Kelly, MVP, listed above, I
may have improperly altered the heading styles default values. As there is
no "return to factory settings" button (so far as I know), a list of the
simplest values would be useful. It should be clear from the values listed
here that I want my base outline Heading values to have no special
formatting: no bold, no blue fonts, no varied font size, no italics, and so
forth. Ideally, in the future I might want a way to invoke different outline
styles, so for one style 'Heading 2' would use a blue font and for another
style 'Heading 2" would use a green font. But that is an elaboration.

3. Put these default value FAQs on a shared visible space. The Word 2007
homepage http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/FX100649251033.aspx and
help-pages tell you from their perspective how to do things, but not how to
undue them. [and this is the web page that returns the 'create a multilevel
list' page noted above to the question of how to 'create a multi-level
outline.'

Ps. I found a copy of "MS Windows Mail 6.0.6" on my Vista64 machine which in
turn provided some access to <
news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsoft.public.word.numbering > which in turn
provided access to 'multilevel lists lose link styles' of 11/20/2009 which in
turn leads to questions of properly linking the list to the headings. Still
I am going to respond to this question via MS's own website, even though it
now appears that if I get the HTTP 408 Request Timeout or HTTP 409 Conflict,
then their Site in fact has not sent the message. Then I alt=right arrow back
a window, wait, and try to resent it till I get the 'close window' msg. I
haven't been able figure out how to send windows mail to a particular
newsgroup (i.e. microsoft.public.word.docmanagement).

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I think you're still not getting it; you create outlines by using styles.
You number those styles using multilevel list numbering.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Still no luck.

Thanks for the reply. Again, my goal: to create a multi-level outline as
opposed to a multi-level list, with a coherent numbering scheme. I am
hoping
for a clear enough explanation so that I might teach college students how
to
do it, and they could feel comfortable using their own multi-level of
outlines.

Now, if one searches on the Internet 'Word 2007 multilevel outline' one
will
come up with documents like these, which I consulted before ever seeking
to
bother re-asking something already solved:

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/HA100650171033.aspx - 'Create a
multilevel list' [not multilevel outline]
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html - 'Focused
on Word 2003 and earlier.'

So yes I have tried to work through the Shauna Kelly suggestions, which of
course may have contributed to problems. More on this in a moment. So as
I
have said, I am working to create a multilevel outline not a multilevel
list
so that 1.) expand or hide lower-level elements, and 2.) greater control
over the formatting of each level. Now, no sooner do I select some
multi-level list format, then it immediately breaks/disappears in either
the
print view or the outline view. Yes, I am working with the 'define new
multilevel list' values, but what should the baseline values look like,
and
what should the simplest 'heading values' look like?

One point of concern *I* have is that my settings for 'link level to
style:'
at each level reads: '(no style)'. I don't remember changing anything,
but
maybe that is a problem. A general FAQ for all users would help. If I
begin
changing all of these values, and the outline still fail to create a
numbering system, then having a list of the original values would be
ideal.

Possible solutions.
1. Create a FAQ listing the ideal, basic, plain values for the expanded
"define new multilevel list" dialogue - what should the "link level to
style"
"listnum field list name" etc., values be set to? As factory setting-ish
as
possible!

2. Create a FAQ listing the ideal baseline values for the 9 heading
styles.
For example, my 'Heading 2' reads, "Level 2, Style: Linked, Hide until
used,
Quick Style, Priority: 10, Based on: Heading 1, Following style: Normal."
Working with the document suggestions of Shawna Kelly, MVP, listed above,
I
may have improperly altered the heading styles default values. As there
is
no "return to factory settings" button (so far as I know), a list of the
simplest values would be useful. It should be clear from the values
listed
here that I want my base outline Heading values to have no special
formatting: no bold, no blue fonts, no varied font size, no italics, and
so
forth. Ideally, in the future I might want a way to invoke different
outline
styles, so for one style 'Heading 2' would use a blue font and for another
style 'Heading 2" would use a green font. But that is an elaboration.

3. Put these default value FAQs on a shared visible space. The Word 2007
homepage http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word/FX100649251033.aspx and
help-pages tell you from their perspective how to do things, but not how
to
undue them. [and this is the web page that returns the 'create a
multilevel
list' page noted above to the question of how to 'create a multi-level
outline.'

Ps. I found a copy of "MS Windows Mail 6.0.6" on my Vista64 machine which
in
turn provided some access to <
news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsoft.public.word.numbering > which in
turn
provided access to 'multilevel lists lose link styles' of 11/20/2009 which
in
turn leads to questions of properly linking the list to the headings.
Still
I am going to respond to this question via MS's own website, even though
it
now appears that if I get the HTTP 408 Request Timeout or HTTP 409
Conflict,
then their Site in fact has not sent the message. Then I alt=right arrow
back
a window, wait, and try to resent it till I get the 'close window' msg. I
haven't been able figure out how to send windows mail to a particular
newsgroup (i.e. microsoft.public.word.docmanagement).

 

[Geodesic]

I think you're still not getting it; you create outlines by using styles.
You number those styles using multilevel list numbering.

That may be, but I already drew attention to to how I had to use the article
by Shauna Kelly, MVP to change the styles of "Heading1", "Heading2", etc.
because of problems I was already having. That is why I sought to see if
there was a FAQ listing what either the ideal, or the original, or the
'usual' settings for Headings 1-9 might be, thinking that maybe the settings
were wrong, breaking a proper link between the outline and the styles.

Let's do this step by step. Suppose I open the outline view, shift back to
the home ribbon, and choose the 1/1.1/1.1.1 outline style from multilevel
list.

I go down to the first line of the document, and type something. I see the
number 1 appear; then I hit return, type something, and see the 2 appear on
the second line, and 3 on the third line. Very nice, so far.

Now I demote that third line to be a subset or child of the second line,
using the alt-shft-left arrow shortcut so that I can watch the following
occur... I see the style shift to 'heading2' on the ribbon... but instead of
a 2.1 prefix, the number 3 remains. If I demote it further, I can watch the
Heading2 shift to Heading3, but instead of getting something like 2.1.1, it
remains 3, and remains number #3 all the way up to Heading9. You might not
think I am watching the "styles" but it looks to me like I am.

Now I go back to the 'multilevel list' on the home ribbon, open it, and what
do I see highlighted as my current choice: you guessed it, 1, 1.1, 1.1.1...
as my numbering choice.

More evidence. I have the Heading3 set to 'bold' the text. Now as I demote
my element and its text, and I can watch the text go from not bold
(heading2/level2)... to bold (heading3/level3)... and back to 'not bold'
(heading4/level4) - again using the alt-shift-arrow shortcut. At no point
does the numbering change (except to become bold at heading3).

You might not think that I understand the link between numbering and styles,
but I still don't believe the link is working. That, of course, is why I
pointed out what the values were of a sample of my heading styles, and of the
'define new multilevel list'

What I asked in the last note was whether anyone knew what the default or
ideal settings for these headings might be. And I expressed in that post, I
hope that such settings could be noted in a FAQ somewhere, ideally on MS's
own site.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I cannot imagine any explanation for what you're seeing if the numbering
levels are properly linked to the styles. In the Define New Multilevel List
dialog, have you checked each level to make sure that it is linked to the
appropriate style? What happens if you press Ctrl+Q in a paragraph when the
numbering is incorrect?

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

 

[Geodesic]

I cannot imagine any explanation for what you're seeing if the numbering
levels are properly linked to the styles.

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" 2/12/2010 1:37 PM PST

"If you apply the 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 numbering to the built-in heading styles,
then the heading styles will be numbered as you prefer (including indents)."

"Suzanne S. Barnhill" 2/11/2010 11:07 PM PST

"Click More to expand the dialog, and you will see that the levels are linked to the > built-in heading styles by default."

Sigh. What I kept asking was what these "defaults" were, what a "properly
linked" level looked like, what the values for the default "built-in heading
styles" might be set to. And I inquired if there was a place, a FAQ, where I
could do a run-down of the settings to figure out if some value or setting
was off. Given that I am simply a writer who is used to OfficeXP and
earlier, I don't know what I am looking for, nor what the setting should look
like.

So looking to suggestion elsewhere, I finally determined that the 'link
level to style' in the 'define new multilevel list' dialog should not have
been set to '(no style)'. I don't mean to impugn anyone trying to help, but
that was in an earlier post. In the 'define new multilevel list' dialog,
when I manually reset the 'level 2' setting of 'link level to style' dialog
to 'heading2' and so on down the line, the outline began to work.

Now I have to figure out how to change the default. That is, when I went to
another 'multi-level' numbering list style, I found that all of *its* 'link
level to style' values were set to ''(no style)' and that when I went back to
the old 1/1.1/1.1.1 numbering style in a new document, it had its multilevel
list link values reset to, you guessed it, '(no style).' If I invoke, say,
1/a/i/1/a/i, a numbering style I don't remember using lately, the values in
the 'define new multi-level list' dialog for level 2 are currently to, but of
course, '(no style)'.

G.

 

[Stefan Blom]

Once you have linked numbering levels to paragraph styles in a document,
save it as a template; creating documents based on that template would then
let you reuse the styles (including the numbering).

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Note that there are (at least in my copy of Word 2007) two selections in the
Multilevel List gallery that have 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 numbering. The first does in
fact have all the levels linked to (no style). But if you select the one
that actually displays Heading 1, Heading 2, Heading 3, etc., you should
find that it is linked to the heading styles.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

 

[Geodesic]

Note that there are (at least in my copy of Word 2007) two selections in the
Multilevel List gallery that have 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 numbering. The first does in
fact have all the levels linked to (no style). But if you select the one
that actually displays Heading 1, Heading 2, Heading 3, etc., you should
find that it is linked to the heading styles.

Let me get this straight: you knew that over half the numbering styles in
fact have no link with the 'corresponding' headings? Then there is not simple
'default.' And presumably there is no reason for them to be set to '(no
style)' since they would never work in an outline.

Once you have linked numbering levels to paragraph styles in a document,
save it as a template; creating documents based on that template would then
let you reuse the styles (including the numbering).

So if I am in the middle of document, a note page or legal document, and I
want to invoke a numbered outline that actually links to the outline numbers
to the outline headers I might have to close the document, invoke a new one
with the 'correct template,' and then paste everything back in, because you
can't reset the basic default values, default values that are by most any
person's judgments incorrect, faulty, and a waste of time?

Of course, once one gets the the numbering system connected to the heading
listing (on a per document basis, not as a default), then one has to alter
the heading so that in the standard 'print layout view' the result still
looks like an outline?

Perhaps one could use the "define new list style" option that we haven't
even talked about. Then one might be able to eliminate the Microsoft default
"broken connections" selections and create numbering systems that actually
link to the appropriate heading.

I'm sure that college students who simply want to create dynamic writing
outlines for term papers (with the facility to hide or expand child
sub-elements, & move elements around rapidly with shift-alt-arrow), and who
don't know all the special vocabulary of styles, headings, templates... will
find this staighforward.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Many posts ago, I told you to select the 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 numbering that showed
Heading 1, Heading 2, etc. I thought you had done that, and that's why I
said the numbering was linked to the heading styles by default. The lists
that are linked to (no style) are not meant to be left that way; you link
them to whatever styles you want to use for the list, such as the List
Number sequence (but those would not work in Outline view, I think).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

 

[Geodesic]

Many posts ago, I told you to select the 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 numbering that showed
Heading 1, Heading 2, etc. I thought you had done that, and that's why I
said the numbering was linked to the heading styles by default. The lists
that are linked to (no style) are not meant to be left that way; you link
them to whatever styles you want to use for the list, such as the List
Number sequence (but those would not work in Outline view, I think).

This is just getting nowhere.

Actually "Suzanne S. Barnhill, MVP" didn't say that. Let's take a look:

Click on the Multilevel list button and then on the illustration that shows
1, 1.1, 1.1.1 linked to Heading 1, Heading 2, Heading 3, etc. *Then* click
Define New Multilevel List, which will open the dialog with that list
template selected.

This assumes that the link was already there, and you made no indication
that many 'outlines' are *by default* not linked! In fact you now seem to
say this is a virtue, and not a problem.

It is like you have now realized that the outlines levels are by default not
necessarily connected to styles and you are going back to rewrite this
thread's history. I kept asking about the defaults and have been complaining
the MS won't even put them on their site, or that interested MVPs won't put
them on some auxiliary site. Having outlines broken *by default* means they
need to be 'programmed' even the first time in order to work, a situation
that seems to favor having to pay for MVP's, or those who have the time to
get at the core of de facto programming Word.

If the average person searches the 'help' system, or visits the MS website
to ask about multi-level outlines, they are directed to making 'multi-level
lists.' Multilevel lists use the 'normal' style all the time, despite using a
numbering and indent system. These multilevel lists look like multilevel
outlines, look like the most default outline of MS OneNote, but they cannot,
for example, hide children elements, as a basic OneNote outline can (by
default).

As I quoted in the last note, you said,
: 2/11/2010 11:07 PM PST
'By default'. Now you are saying many of these outlines have levels that
are in fact **not** linked to these built-in headers by default.

: 2/12/2010 1:37 PM PSTthen the heading styles will be numbered as you prefer (including indents).

But in fact you are now saying that they aren't linked to built in headings!
Further, the Shauna Kelly document has one making all kinds of changes to
the Heading Styles, but with a focus on Word 2003 and earlier. If one starts
fiddling around with Headings as Kelly advises, then they will now longer
have 'built in' values, and since one cannot automatically go back to some
sort of 'default value' and the default values aren't listed anywhere (at
least that is what I asked for, and never got a response), then one might
have broken the outline system.

All this simply to create the most simple multi-level outlines in Word 2007.

So if I am to tell college students to use such outlines, MS believes that
they are going to have to also learn to program their outlines, make new
outline links, redesign the headings, etc. ... as preliminaries?

Now I asked:
how to set up new defaults, to link all the multilevel outline elements to
the corresponding multilevel headings, and I have gotten the run-around, and
am even being attacked as being inattentive. Stefan Blom, MVP suggested that
I should tell college students to create document templates for the most
basic outlines they want to write, but I promise you they don't always know
what kind of document they are creating as they write their papers and
outline information. And what happens if they want to change their outline
type/style in the middle of the document?

So how to get rid of these broken outline formats in MS's Multilevel list's
'List Library' and replace them with new formats that work. Interestingly, if
one works to the 'define a new multilevel list' dialog and tries to link,
say, level 3 with heading 3, and one highlights level 3 as the level to
modify, and starts with the default '(no style)' at the top of the 'link
level to style' list, and then logically scrolls down through heading 1,
heading 1 to heading 3, the Word Software deletes the existing links between
the 'list' and the heading format as one scrolls down. I guess the idea is
that one isn't allowed to have the same 'heading' format to be assigned with
different levels in the 'multilevel list'. Meaning as one scrolls down with
level 3 highlighted of the left, running from 'no style', normal, heading 1,
heading 2, to 'heading3' then other levels that have heading 1 will now lose
it (so no conflict), and so on. So it's no fun to have the built in default
to be 'no style' as default. [so scroll via the scroll bar, not through the
selections].

So after one comes up with a new style, after makeing the links, one saves
the document, opens a new blank document, and tries to invoke the new list
style one created via the 'define new list style' option... and the list
style one created is not there. Instead we still see the broken versions that
MS supplies.

So the question remains, how to change the defaults of everything in the
library so that level 1 is linked to heading 1, level 2 is linked to heading
2, level 3 is linked to heading 3, and so on. And once and for all, so one
doesn't have to keep programming in the links.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Your quotation confirms that I told you exactly what I said I told you:
"Click on the Multilevel list button and then on the illustration that shows
1, 1.1, 1.1.1 linked to Heading 1, Heading 2, Heading 3, etc."

Maybe you're seeing something different from what I see, but when I look at
the List Library, I see two pictures that have 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 numbering. The
top one just shows lines representing text. The one below that has text that
says 1 Heading, 1.1 Heading 2, 1.1.1 Heading 3 and so on. That is the one I
told you to select. When you apply that one to a Normal paragraph, the
paragraph becomes Heading 1 and is numbered 1. If you then click on Define
New Multilevel List and click More as described, you will see that the list
levels are linked to the heading styles.

While you could use this list for non-heading styles (by changing the styles
the levels are linked to), it will be more appropriate to use the other,
unlinked list and link the levels as desired.

FWIW, the List Library for multilevel lists in Word 2007 is (at the outset)
identical to the default Outline Numbered List gallery in Word 2003, which
also shows two versions of the 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 numbering, one of which is
linked to the heading styles. The heading numbering in Word 2003 works
exactly the same way (if you apply that list to a Normal paragraph, if
becomes Heading 1). The only difference is that you can select Customize
before closing the dialog, whereas in Word 2007 you have to click on the
Multilevel List button again and choose Define New Multilevel List in order
to customize the selected list.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org

Many posts ago, I told you to select the 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 numbering that
showed
Heading 1, Heading 2, etc. I thought you had done that, and that's why I
said the numbering was linked to the heading styles by default. The lists
that are linked to (no style) are not meant to be left that way; you link
them to whatever styles you want to use for the list, such as the List
Number sequence (but those would not work in Outline view, I think).

This is just getting nowhere.

Actually "Suzanne S. Barnhill, MVP" didn't say that. Let's take a look:

Click on the Multilevel list button and then on the illustration that
shows
1, 1.1, 1.1.1 linked to Heading 1, Heading 2, Heading 3, etc. *Then*
click
Define New Multilevel List, which will open the dialog with that list
template selected.

This assumes that the link was already there, and you made no indication
that many 'outlines' are *by default* not linked! In fact you now seem to
say this is a virtue, and not a problem.

It is like you have now realized that the outlines levels are by default
not
necessarily connected to styles and you are going back to rewrite this
thread's history. I kept asking about the defaults and have been
complaining
the MS won't even put them on their site, or that interested MVPs won't
put
them on some auxiliary site. Having outlines broken *by default* means
they
need to be 'programmed' even the first time in order to work, a situation
that seems to favor having to pay for MVP's, or those who have the time to
get at the core of de facto programming Word.

If the average person searches the 'help' system, or visits the MS website
to ask about multi-level outlines, they are directed to making
'multi-level
lists.' Multilevel lists use the 'normal' style all the time, despite
using a
numbering and indent system. These multilevel lists look like multilevel
outlines, look like the most default outline of MS OneNote, but they
cannot,
for example, hide children elements, as a basic OneNote outline can (by
default).

As I quoted in the last note, you said,
: 2/11/2010 11:07 PM PST
'By default'. Now you are saying many of these outlines have levels that
are in fact **not** linked to these built-in headers by default.

: 2/12/2010 1:37 PM PSTthen the heading styles will be numbered as you prefer (including
indents).

But in fact you are now saying that they aren't linked to built in
headings!
Further, the Shauna Kelly document has one making all kinds of changes to
the Heading Styles, but with a focus on Word 2003 and earlier. If one
starts
fiddling around with Headings as Kelly advises, then they will now longer
have 'built in' values, and since one cannot automatically go back to some
sort of 'default value' and the default values aren't listed anywhere (at
least that is what I asked for, and never got a response), then one might
have broken the outline system.

All this simply to create the most simple multi-level outlines in Word
2007.

So if I am to tell college students to use such outlines, MS believes that
they are going to have to also learn to program their outlines, make new
outline links, redesign the headings, etc. ... as preliminaries?

Now I asked:
how to set up new defaults, to link all the multilevel outline elements to
the corresponding multilevel headings, and I have gotten the run-around,
and
am even being attacked as being inattentive. Stefan Blom, MVP suggested
that
I should tell college students to create document templates for the most
basic outlines they want to write, but I promise you they don't always
know
what kind of document they are creating as they write their papers and
outline information. And what happens if they want to change their outline
type/style in the middle of the document?

So how to get rid of these broken outline formats in MS's Multilevel
list's
'List Library' and replace them with new formats that work. Interestingly,
if
one works to the 'define a new multilevel list' dialog and tries to link,
say, level 3 with heading 3, and one highlights level 3 as the level to
modify, and starts with the default '(no style)' at the top of the 'link
level to style' list, and then logically scrolls down through heading 1,
heading 1 to heading 3, the Word Software deletes the existing links
between
the 'list' and the heading format as one scrolls down. I guess the idea
is
that one isn't allowed to have the same 'heading' format to be assigned
with
different levels in the 'multilevel list'. Meaning as one scrolls down
with
level 3 highlighted of the left, running from 'no style', normal, heading
1,
heading 2, to 'heading3' then other levels that have heading 1 will now
lose
it (so no conflict), and so on. So it's no fun to have the built in
default
to be 'no style' as default. [so scroll via the scroll bar, not through
the
selections].

So after one comes up with a new style, after makeing the links, one saves
the document, opens a new blank document, and tries to invoke the new list
style one created via the 'define new list style' option... and the list
style one created is not there. Instead we still see the broken versions
that
MS supplies.

So the question remains, how to change the defaults of everything in the
library so that level 1 is linked to heading 1, level 2 is linked to
heading
2, level 3 is linked to heading 3, and so on. And once and for all, so one
doesn't have to keep programming in the links.

 

[cmyk]

Hi Geodesic,

Perhaps you should:
1. be clearer about stating what you're after;
2. pay close attention to the advice given;
3. not misapply the very competent advice you've been given; and
4. stop trying to make out that everyone else is the problem.


--
cmyk

Many posts ago, I told you to select the 1, 1.1, 1.1.1 numbering that showed
Heading 1, Heading 2, etc. I thought you had done that, and that's why I
said the numbering was linked to the heading styles by default. The lists
that are linked to (no style) are not meant to be left that way; you link
them to whatever styles you want to use for the list, such as the List
Number sequence (but those would not work in Outline view, I think).

This is just getting nowhere.

Actually "Suzanne S. Barnhill, MVP" didn't say that. Let's take a look:

Click on the Multilevel list button and then on the illustration that shows
1, 1.1, 1.1.1 linked to Heading 1, Heading 2, Heading 3, etc. *Then* click
Define New Multilevel List, which will open the dialog with that list
template selected.

This assumes that the link was already there, and you made no indication
that many 'outlines' are *by default* not linked! In fact you now seem to
say this is a virtue, and not a problem.

It is like you have now realized that the outlines levels are by default not
necessarily connected to styles and you are going back to rewrite this
thread's history. I kept asking about the defaults and have been complaining
the MS won't even put them on their site, or that interested MVPs won't put
them on some auxiliary site. Having outlines broken *by default* means they
need to be 'programmed' even the first time in order to work, a situation
that seems to favor having to pay for MVP's, or those who have the time to
get at the core of de facto programming Word.

If the average person searches the 'help' system, or visits the MS website
to ask about multi-level outlines, they are directed to making 'multi-level
lists.' Multilevel lists use the 'normal' style all the time, despite using a
numbering and indent system. These multilevel lists look like multilevel
outlines, look like the most default outline of MS OneNote, but they cannot,
for example, hide children elements, as a basic OneNote outline can (by
default).

As I quoted in the last note, you said,
: 2/11/2010 11:07 PM PST
'By default'. Now you are saying many of these outlines have levels that
are in fact **not** linked to these built-in headers by default.

: 2/12/2010 1:37 PM PSTthen the heading styles will be numbered as you prefer (including indents).

But in fact you are now saying that they aren't linked to built in headings!
Further, the Shauna Kelly document has one making all kinds of changes to
the Heading Styles, but with a focus on Word 2003 and earlier. If one starts
fiddling around with Headings as Kelly advises, then they will now longer
have 'built in' values, and since one cannot automatically go back to some
sort of 'default value' and the default values aren't listed anywhere (at
least that is what I asked for, and never got a response), then one might
have broken the outline system.

All this simply to create the most simple multi-level outlines in Word 2007.

So if I am to tell college students to use such outlines, MS believes that
they are going to have to also learn to program their outlines, make new
outline links, redesign the headings, etc. ... as preliminaries?

Now I asked:
how to set up new defaults, to link all the multilevel outline elements to
the corresponding multilevel headings, and I have gotten the run-around, and
am even being attacked as being inattentive. Stefan Blom, MVP suggested that
I should tell college students to create document templates for the most
basic outlines they want to write, but I promise you they don't always know
what kind of document they are creating as they write their papers and
outline information. And what happens if they want to change their outline
type/style in the middle of the document?

So how to get rid of these broken outline formats in MS's Multilevel list's
'List Library' and replace them with new formats that work. Interestingly, if
one works to the 'define a new multilevel list' dialog and tries to link,
say, level 3 with heading 3, and one highlights level 3 as the level to
modify, and starts with the default '(no style)' at the top of the 'link
level to style' list, and then logically scrolls down through heading 1,
heading 1 to heading 3, the Word Software deletes the existing links between
the 'list' and the heading format as one scrolls down. I guess the idea is
that one isn't allowed to have the same 'heading' format to be assigned with
different levels in the 'multilevel list'. Meaning as one scrolls down with
level 3 highlighted of the left, running from 'no style', normal, heading 1,
heading 2, to 'heading3' then other levels that have heading 1 will now lose
it (so no conflict), and so on. So it's no fun to have the built in default
to be 'no style' as default. [so scroll via the scroll bar, not through the
selections].

So after one comes up with a new style, after makeing the links, one saves
the document, opens a new blank document, and tries to invoke the new list
style one created via the 'define new list style' option... and the list
style one created is not there. Instead we still see the broken versions that
MS supplies.

So the question remains, how to change the defaults of everything in the
library so that level 1 is linked to heading 1, level 2 is linked to heading
2, level 3 is linked to heading 3, and so on. And once and for all, so one
doesn't have to keep programming in the links.

 

[Stefan Blom]

So if I am in the middle of document, a note page or legal document, and

I
want to invoke a numbered outline that actually links to the outline
numbers
to the outline headers I might have to close the document, invoke a new
one
with the 'correct template,' and then paste everything back in, because
you
can't reset the basic default values, default values that are by most any
person's judgments incorrect, faulty, and a waste of time?

Of course, once one gets the the numbering system connected to the heading
listing (on a per document basis, not as a default), then one has to alter
the heading so that in the standard 'print layout view' the result still
looks like an outline?

The principle is: If you want document A to use formatting available in
document B, copy (the relevant contents of) A into B. Depending on which
styles are in use, you may have to manually apply the appropriate styles,
but at least you don't have to reformat from scratch. Of course you can work
with copies of the documents; that way, you prevent undesired data in
undesired locations. Creating a document from a custom template is one way
to create such a "copy."

In the case of numbering, you can create a document from the appropriate
template, and then use the Insert File dialog box to bring existing contents
into the newly created document.

The approach might be time-consuming and not at all flexible, but it is what
Word offers.

Perhaps one could use the "define new list style" option that we haven't
even talked about. Then one might be able to eliminate the Microsoft
default
"broken connections" selections and create numbering systems that actually
link to the appropriate heading.

List styles do simplify certain aspects of numbering, but note that even if
you use them, you should link numbering to styles as well.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP