Access is like a fine car

M

Mark A. Sam

Was causing the script to abort and put an error message on the
I'd be willing to bet that you are misinterpreting what's going on here.
I don't know exactly what line of code is is the ultimate cause of the
error, but *neither* of these conditions:


will evaluate to True if rs("TrailerLength") is Null. Never would. So
possibly there's a flaw in your logic that assumes that tlength has been
set to some particular value, when in fact it hasn't. If the error
wasn't revealed before, maybe it was due to a difference in the data
coming in via the recordset.

Dick,

I said Null, even though [TrailerLength] is a text field. This is becuase
it has been my experience that you don't know if "Access" will look at a
text field as Null or Empty. I always make a test in VBA saying if
IsNull([someField]) or [someField] = "" then...

This is another problem where you would assume a text field would default as
"" but that can't be trusted. Here I debugged it to show me the value is ""
and not Null. The value for [TrailerLength] could will be a number, combo
of Alpahnumeric (45'), 0, or "", never Null. This has been the case all
along and the code has worked to strip out Zeros. Now I am populating with
Zeros which is fine. Now the form is delivering all of the records without
any errors.

God Bless,

Mark
 
M

Mark A. Sam

I just tried this and it is great, however after I used it on my client's
machine, I ran into an issue of another popup menu coming up evertime I
clicked on the database window or a search window within Access...lol.
 
L

Larry Linson

Mark A. Sam said:
I sure don't mean to offend anyone
except maybe Bill Gates and his execu-
tives for not minding the store. If you
bought a car like I described, you
wouldn't accept it, so why accept these
things from Microsoft. You are putting
in your time to solve issues that Microsoft
should be fixing.

Mark, you have chosen the wrong venue to complain to Messrs. Gates, Ballmer,
et al. I can assure you that they are not regulars in any of the newsgroups
to which you directed what I can only classify as a "rant" -- that is, you
have "vented", and expressed your dissatisfaction, but done so in a place
where it will have no effect _except_ to irritate those who use the
newsgroup for its intended purpose.

I suggest you write a snail-mail letter, being very specific about the
issues (your complaints were broad and vague, and you can expect only broad
and vague responses to that kind of complaint) that disturb you, and send it
to Bill Gates and/or Steve Ballmer at Microsoft. If you did that, in an even
moderately civil manner, it would not surprise me at all if you got a
response -- and, if your complaints are specific and verifiable, they might
well be addressed as a result of your reporting them.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP
 
L

Larry Linson

Arvin Meyer said:
... especially since it isn't a mindless rant,
but a well thought out analogy)\

Really? It's very similar to an Internet joke that has been floating around
for years and years, comparing Microsoft products to cars.
. . . but I do agree with at least part of
his conclusion, that is that more needs to
be spent on cleaning up some of the
persistent little bugs.

Is there any software product you use to which that would not apply? What's
to not agree with? My disagreement was with the tone, the broad and vague
complaints, and posting in a newsgroup unlikely to be read by the parties to
which he wanted to address the complaints.
Unfortunately, I cannot presume to
budget Microsoft's resources, nor
count their money.

My other point was that, if Mark presented valid and specific complaints in
a civil manner to those executives, he might actually get some action on
them. I doubt they can fix the need to "add water to Access", though.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP
 
A

Albert D. Kallal

No, becuase I don't bother posting anymore. No one has answers, becuase
these things shouldn't be happening. I'll give you an example. I hae an
app which I have changed, but the changes aren't causing the problem. In
fact a couple apps for the same client. I make .mde files and suddenly
they
bomb, becuase of missing library references or references selectdd which
aren't on the user's machines.

Ok, no question about it, broken refs is perhaps near the TOP of problems in
posts we see. On the toher hand, I had ZERO problems in the loast 3, or 4
years. In fact, I had NOT ONE BROKEN ref in years. Why? The fact remains
that if you deploy an appciton to a target macine, you have to make some
efrorents to enuse that the tart mahcine has those libary and setups that
you requite for your softaware. Faile to take this simply steop does make
one queston yuor ppaovarl here. You simply are blaing tools..and saying
there is no soltion to broekne refeences. The fact is, you either adopting a
installer (like Inno, or Wise, or Instlalshela) to ensue those libarys are
installed in the taglet computer. And, if you don't care to use a
installeer, (and Idon't think you need one), then you simply ahve to accept
that you are using a devepoment tool without a pakcing and deplaying tools
that resovles refnances. This is just fact of using a software proudct like
ms-access that has a LARGE number of depnconces.

However, as I stanted, I NEVER have any problem refnaces here. So, while I
admit refnances is perahps one of the GREAT probmes, sinc eyou know this is
a probmem, hten waht steps have tyou taking to elimonate this? The steaps
are VERY simple by the way.

The only two things I have done (and once done), zitally 100% of my refancer
preobelms went away. The two things are:


1) You must ensue that hte target mahcine has the same version of software
(this makes JET updates, service packces etc.).
2) If you use any automaaton code (word, Excel, outlook), then simply use
late biding, and don't use any activeX cotnorls

I used to have all kinds of broken ref problmes, and adotping the above two
simplye problems means that my cleints run FOR EYARSX AN EYARS withotu EVER
haovng to phone me. My product run, nad i would say right now, they are MORE
reialbiry then most of the toher appctions (comeirial or custom) that my
clents use. So, I consder ms-accsss VERY VERY trouble free, as long as ou
afollwo tthe above two rules.
Until my
client calls me shouting that he can't get into the program. I recognized
the problem as a missing library on his machine. How did that happen I
wonder

Likey, your cient is running a differnt verison of some library..and you
simpy CAN NOT alow this. For example, to run a97, you must:

install sr1
install sr2b
install JETsp35sp3.exe

You MUST sintall all of the above. If you do so, then your appcitons will
NOT break. The sample apples to laster verisons. You install the office sp
packs, and the udpates to JET. Do that...and ALL OF your broken ref problems
will goaign (keeping in mind suggtestion #1, and #2 above).
didn't do that and obviously it happened since my last update of the mde
file, becuase the program worked on my client's machine. Now it is
bombing.
So on my version the library got selected, and apparently on the mde
version. No one else uses my machine here and noone has the expertice to
make a new mde. So this is happening on its own. How do I figure this
out
when it is too incredible to believe?

I don't know why the above happened, but your should pursue this question.
As I mentioned, have a lot of software (I just deployed 5 versions of
package of mine out to 5 different clients (in a different city!!), and NONE
had the slightest problem. You can either throw your hand up, and give up,
or start taking some SIMPLE steps..and all your ref problems will go away..

And, I happen to disagree with others...I do think you SHOULD explain your
frustrations. The reason why I don't mind your expressing frustrations is
because I know for a fact that you can GET VERY RELIABLE client installs of
software. I do it all the time. I can assure you 4, or 5 years ago I have
very much the question on my mind am I going to continue with this ms-access
breaking down. Fact is,the he product is really nice now, and some learning
was required on my part..but not real high programming stuff..but just few
common sense things.

So, addition to you expressing frustration...please also ask for answers. I
can tell you that I have LOT of software in ms-access, and I even as
mentioned support clients and software in different cities.

ms-access is allowing me to hit all kinds of home runs, and I make GREAT
software that my clients love, and that software is MORE reliable then most
products this run. In fact, as mentioned, the majority of them run for 2-3
years before they EVER need to call me for support....

So, not only has ms-access become a fine car...but now become a trusty old
reliable friend that works well...
 
M

Mark A. Sam

Albert,

I understand what you are saying, and yes I should use the groups for
answers, but in the last several years I have not been able to get answers
many times, and this isn't the problem of there newsgroup people, but that
these issues make no sense. I'm not sure what you mean by installers, and I
am not deploying packages, but rather simply copying the mde from my local
machine to the network. This issue is happening after I have updated an mde
and the users have used it for a duration. Suddenly for no reason,
libraries are checked off. Its bizaare.

Here is an idea that maybe Microsoft should have thought of. If a library
is missing, let the program ignore it instread of bombing out and the app
shutting down. If this company was testing its software this issue should
have been addressed and solved long ago.

I personally think this is a place to vent "occasionally" that that Bill
Gates should take the heat. He placed himself in public position of be "Mr.
Microsoft". He positioned his product in a dominiant position in the
marketplace, claiming its ease of use.

There was a time when I absolutely loved developing in Access. If I hit a
snag it could be worked out. It isn't that easy now, becuase the problems
popup out of nowhere. They aren't things that occur at development time and
you think, I'll just find a work around. They are methods that have been
working for years and suddenly for no apparent reason are failing.

Here is another example. I had methods in the BeforeUpdate events of many
forms to update textboxes. No problem for along time, but suddenly they
produce errors and the textboxes don't get updated. But this happened on
some forms and not others. I am pretty sure at the time that I presented
this to the forums with no response. That isn't anyone's fault, but
Microsoft. Maybe there is a reason and a solution, but shouuld I spend
hours of my time investigating this? That in itself is a reason to
complain. Did you ever wonder why there are such vast resources for
addressing Microsoft product issues?

I will say one thing about Microsoft which is a blessing. Microsoft proves
beyong a doubt that Darwinian Evolution is impossible. ;)

Mark
 
M

Mark A. Sam

Hello Larry,
Really? It's very similar to an Internet joke that has been floating around
for years and years, comparing Microsoft products to cars.

I've never heard that joke. In fact my complaints with Microsoft aren't
affected by other's views of the company or of Bill Gates. When some states
attacked Microsoft with a lawsuit several years ago, to prevent it from
including OE as part of Windows, I defended Microsoft and still would today.
Many people or entities attack Microsoft for many reason, but not me. I
don't even have a problem with Microsoft or any other company being dominant
in the markerplace. There is an upside to Bill Gates as he made software
and produced standards in the industry. This doesn't deny the fact the the
little quirky things offset the good things. After years of doing work
arounds and taking the heat for unexplainable issues, I just feel it is time
to speak out "again" (I have done it before).
Is there any software product you use to which that would not apply? What's
to not agree with?

Actually I write to companys about problems with their software. This is
not the same however as being an enduser. Being in the developer seat, I
need to address and solve issues. Being an enduser, I can choose to shut an
app down and not use it. I can't shut my clients down who have complaints
against me for something I can't control. I can't control or predict when
Access will misbehave. It seems to do what it wants when it wants.
My disagreement was with the tone, the broad and vague
complaints, and posting in a newsgroup unlikely to be read by the parties to
which he wanted to address the complaints.

I don't beleive that's true. This is a forum sponsored by Microsoft, and I
am pretty sure it is monitored, and if someone makes a fuss, it gets
reported to higher ups.
My other point was that, if Mark presented valid and specific complaints in
a civil manner to those executives, he might actually get some action on
them. I doubt they can fix the need to "add water to Access", though.

I agree, anti-depressants would be more appropriate for Access. ;)
 
D

david epsom dot com dot au

Microsoft seems to be giving up on Nulls. .Net doesn't
support Nulls they way VB does. The Excel IISAM doesn't
import null fields as nulls anymore. Access tables default
to AllowZeroLength=True.

(david)

 
A

Albert D. Kallal

First, my apologies for missing the spell checker.....I am *very*
sorry....that mess I posted is hard to read...
I'm not sure what you mean by installers, and I
am not deploying packages, but rather simply copying the mde from my local
machine to the network.

Good, the above is ok. I mention the use of a installer, since if you are
using ANY activeX controls (calendar, or treeview for example), then you
kind of need to be using a installer to install those activeX parts.
(however, you don't seem to using activeX controls..but if you are, then
reference breaking will increase even more if you don't!!).
Here is an idea that maybe Microsoft should have thought of. If a library
is missing, let the program ignore it instread of bombing out and the app
shutting down. If this company was testing its software this issue should
have been addressed and solved long ago.

Well, I actually have 3 answers to the above

1) All developers from c++, VB6, and yes even ms-access developers have had
to deal with dll hell. This is how the development process works,and
developers
have had to deal with broken refs for a very long time. The fact of the
matter is that
ms-access has a lot of dependencies.

2) However, with .net, the issue of missing dll's is now fixed in a sense..
However, Microsoft to solve this problem had to complete re-engineer the
main
software tools that developers use, and that was a big change. So, if you
have
a solution to dll hell, the industry awaits your solution..and I sure if
anyone did have a solution...it would have been adopted long ago.

3) as mentioned, if you have any automation code of word, excel outlook,
then you MUST use late binding.
There was a time when I absolutely loved developing in Access. If I hit a
snag it could be worked out. It isn't that easy now, becuase the problems
popup out of nowhere. They aren't things that occur at development time
and
you think, I'll just find a work around. They are methods that have been
working for years and suddenly for no apparent reason are failing.

As I mentioned, I not experienced the above problem if a few precautions are
taken. This do not mean you are having problems, but I do hold up a flag
of hope for you that can, and should be able to obtain VERY reliable
operation of your software. There is only a FEW precautions to be taken,
and once done, your software should run reliable.
Here is another example. I had methods in the BeforeUpdate events of
many
forms to update textboxes. No problem for along time, but suddenly they
produce errors and the textboxes don't get updated. But this happened on
some forms and not others. I am pretty sure at the time that I presented
this to the forums with no response. That isn't anyone's fault, but
Microsoft. Maybe there is a reason and a solution, but shouuld I spend
hours of my time investigating this? That in itself is a reason to
complain. Did you ever wonder why there are such vast resources for
addressing Microsoft product issues?

The above is tough one. Often a person bring a car to a mechanic, and that
mechanic starts asking about spark plugs, condition of spark plug wires,
fuel filter and a whole bunch of things that do NOT seem related to the
problem that the person is having. I will say that if your version of
office and JET is full patched, then the last few versions of ms-access
should provide you with reliable operation.

I know of some companies that pay MORE in a year to support of 8 computers
in their office then some companies with 25 or even 30+ computers! The
reason why the company with 30 computers spends lees money is that careful
attention is paid to what software is installed on each computer, and they
are all the same. So, when one problem is fixed..it applies to all 30
computers. Further, each computer actually runs the SAME disk image. With
the company of 8 computers, each computer is so different, that fixing a
problem on computer does not even apply to the other computers anymore. So,
when a solution is found to a problem...it is of ONLY use to the one
computer!! So, companies that have strong controls, and CAREFUL versioning
of the installed software can reduce problems by thousands of dollars in a
year. Again, I am not saying this is your problem..but I seen many company
curse their support bills...while others say it is cheap to maintain their
computers! The same approach applies to ms-access, and if you got consistent
setups ..then you should not be experiencing problems here. Of course, the
correct setups like not allowing more then one user into the mde front end
is a great example of why some companies have such trouble free operation of
ms-access. Thus, you MUST place the copy of the mde on EACH computer for
example. Companies that don't do this have nothing but problems.
I will say one thing about Microsoft which is a blessing. Microsoft
proves
beyong a doubt that Darwinian Evolution is impossible. ;)

Well, fact is ms-access is the best product in it class. ms-access won the
hearts of users because it was a good product.

I mean, Microsoft is likely one of the most bashed companies in the
planet...so, I can't say users brought and use ms-access because it was a
Microsoft product, but users did in fact purchase and use ms-access because
it is the best product in its class...
 
B

Brendan Reynolds

The problem is that, as far as I am aware, no one has yet come up with an
alternative to Null as a consistent way of representing unknown values of
different data types. If you use an empty string instead of a Null to
represent an unknown text value, what then do you use to represent an
unknown numeric or date value?
 
M

Mark A. Sam

Albert D. Kallal said:
First, my apologies for missing the spell checker.....I am *very*
sorry....that mess I posted is hard to read...

Don't worry about that. Is the spell checker new? I don't think I ever
noticed it...lol.
Good, the above is ok. I mention the use of a installer, since if you are
using ANY activeX controls (calendar, or treeview for example), then you
kind of need to be using a installer to install those activeX parts.
(however, you don't seem to using activeX controls..but if you are, then
reference breaking will increase even more if you don't!!).

I don't use any type of ActiveX controls in client apps, including the
Calander control. I know the problems that can arise. I would recognize
this type of problem, and not what I was complaining about.
Well, I actually have 3 answers to the above

1) All developers from c++, VB6, and yes even ms-access developers have had
to deal with dll hell. This is how the development process works,and
developers
have had to deal with broken refs for a very long time. The fact of the
matter is that
ms-access has a lot of dependencies.

2) However, with .net, the issue of missing dll's is now fixed in a sense..
However, Microsoft to solve this problem had to complete re-engineer the
main
software tools that developers use, and that was a big change. So, if you
have
a solution to dll hell, the industry awaits your solution..and I sure if
anyone did have a solution...it would have been adopted long ago.

On Error Resume Next
I know it sounds simplistic and an app may need a specific library to
operate certain function, but in the many cases where the developer
inadvertently selects a library and it isn't needed by the application, it
would be better procedure to allow it to open up for use. If a problem
exists it will show in the open application.
3) as mentioned, if you have any automation code of word, excel outlook,
then you MUST use late binding.

Nothing like that. I have run into that issue with a client when I had to
create AutoCad drawings from Access, but was aware of the issue and made
sure the users had AutoCad installed with the Appropriate libraries. I
always use SendObject for sending emails.
As I mentioned, I not experienced the above problem if a few precautions are
taken. This do not mean you are having problems, but I do hold up a flag
of hope for you that can, and should be able to obtain VERY reliable
operation of your software. There is only a FEW precautions to be taken,
and once done, your software should run reliable.

Actually I am trying to quit doing this. I have two clients who refuse to
hire another programmer and I can't desert them. They provided me an
excellent living over the last 6 years.
The above is tough one. Often a person bring a car to a mechanic, and that
mechanic starts asking about spark plugs, condition of spark plug wires,
fuel filter and a whole bunch of things that do NOT seem related to the
problem that the person is having. I will say that if your version of
office and JET is full patched, then the last few versions of ms-access
should provide you with reliable operation.

If the issue concerned a new machine (s) using the application, I would
think that was relevant, but the apps were running fine then failed. It is
possible that Windows and/or Office updates were installed and that could be
the problem, but then the responsibility falls into Microsoft's lap. Updates
should improve not hinder performance.

I know of some companies that pay MORE in a year to support of 8 computers
in their office then some companies with 25 or even 30+ computers! The
reason why the company with 30 computers spends lees money is that careful
attention is paid to what software is installed on each computer, and they
are all the same. So, when one problem is fixed..it applies to all 30
computers.

I understand. In both of my client's systems, there is a mix of
workstations operating different software including different windows
versions. I failed to find that to be the issue, however, as the same
problem could occur on different operating systems. One thing I did notice,
was that some problems occured on the owner's workstations which didn't
occur anywhere else in the system...lol.

Further, each computer actually runs the SAME disk image. With
the company of 8 computers, each computer is so different, that fixing a
problem on computer does not even apply to the other computers anymore. So,
when a solution is found to a problem...it is of ONLY use to the one
computer!! So, companies that have strong controls, and CAREFUL versioning
of the installed software can reduce problems by thousands of dollars in a
year. Again, I am not saying this is your problem..but I seen many company
curse their support bills...while others say it is cheap to maintain their
computers! The same approach applies to ms-access, and if you got consistent
setups ..

Actually that is a problem, becuase I don't so the Access installations on
new equipment and have to go back and reinstall features. This is another
Microsoft issue that bugs me, that you have to open up directory trees and
manually select the features instead of clicking a checkbox to "Install
Everything".


then you should not be experiencing problems here. Of course, the
correct setups like not allowing more then one user into the mde front end
is a great example of why some companies have such trouble free operation of
ms-access. Thus, you MUST place the copy of the mde on EACH computer for
example. Companies that don't do this have nothing but problems.

For one client a new version of the mde is loaded locally from the network
when the user logs in. This allows me to update without having all users
close out.
Well, fact is ms-access is the best product in it class. ms-access won the
hearts of users because it was a good product.

I don't doubt that it is. In fact, my analogy implies that it is top of its
class, however it is fraught with little annoyances, which are time
consuming and cause embarrasment. That is why I posted this thread. ;)

I mean, Microsoft is likely one of the most bashed companies in the
planet...so,

and the most profitable????

I can't say users brought and use ms-access because it was a
Microsoft product, but users did in fact purchase and use ms-access because
it is the best product in its class...

I have to disagree. I think they bought it becuase they trust it comes
bundled with Office Pro, and early on Microsoft sold it cheaply and provided
unbelievable support for it, and this forum continues that great support,
however the problems are too numerous to address. To be fair to Microsoft
this is what I told a client last week (before I even posted this) about why
we are having these issues:

" I think the problem is that Microsoft can't keep up with its software
anymore. Whenever they produce updates (office or windows), they can't
account for all of the areas these updates affect. Another problem may be
the type of data you are entering and how it affects SQL Server. SQL Server
doesn't work the same as linking to an Access Database. It has different
rules on how it treats data. "

So I do understand that Microsoft has a daunting task keeping up with
things, but they also have extraordinary money and resources to work these
things out and be more focused on the needs and problems facing developers.

God Bless,

Mark
 
D

Dirk Goldgar

Mark A. Sam said:
To be fair to Microsoft this is what I told a client last week
(before I even posted this) about why we are having these issues:

" I think the problem is that Microsoft can't keep up with its
software anymore. Whenever they produce updates (office or windows),
they can't account for all of the areas these updates affect.

Now this I think is true, and at the heart of the kinds of problems
you're talking about -- the ones that can't be ascribed to errors on the
part of the developer. The interconnectedness of all elements of the
software environment has led to extreme and (maybe) unmanageable
complexity.
So I do understand that Microsoft has a daunting task keeping up with
things, but they also have extraordinary money and resources to work
these things out and be more focused on the needs and problems facing
developers.

You may be right, though I do think MS is aware of the problem. Is .Net
supposed to deal with this? I don't know.
 
D

david epsom dot com dot au

Dirk Goldgar said:
Now this I think is true, and at the heart of the kinds of problems
you're talking about -- the ones that can't be ascribed to errors on the
part of the developer. The interconnectedness of all elements of the
software environment has led to extreme and (maybe) unmanageable
complexity.

:~) Did you ever study political science? You may not realise
that Marx thought that the interconnectedness of all elements of
the <economy had> led to extreme and unmanageable complexity.

His belief was that this extreme and unmanageable complexity
would be replaced by a less efficient but more stable system.

One import point that he missed was that the instability (not
the complexity or the interconnectedness) of the system would
be moderated. There are now specific economic policies in place
which have this moderating effect.

These policies make the economy less 'efficient', but still
more 'efficient' than either an unmoderated economy or a
command economy.

I leave any further analogy to others :~)

(david)
 
R

Robert_L_Ross

Here's an idea,

How about you take the role of 'developer' for real? Stop whining about
broken references and troubleshooting. ...if you haven't figured out in the
many years you've used Access that the program changes - and if you haven't
figured out when the program changes, your development level needs to change,
then you need to get out of the development game.

I've been building databases since Access 2.0. I've seen what initially
seemed to be rediculous changes in the way Access was built. Inevitably, I
find out it was done for a reason. By the way, have you ever tried calling
Microsoft to have them help you? Here's an anecdote for you:
I tried to import data from a program called Registrar into Access 97.
Registrar only exported as an .xls file. I opened it in Excel and tried .db,
..txt, .csv, every format I could think of. I finally called Microsoft to ask
them and got what sounded like an 18 year old high schooler on the phone. I
asked my question - "why won't this file import?". He immediately replied
with "when you saved the file in Excel, what font did you have set?"

As you can imagine, I asked for his boss before he could take another
breath. My thought was "what the f@#$ does the font have to do with the
data?". He told me he knew it sounded rediculous, but to humor him and try
changing the font to courier before importing, and if it didn't work he'd
give me to his supervisor immediately.

Well, it worked, freakiest thing I've ever seen. My point is, nowhere have
you ever indicated you've taken the time to actually call Microsoft and let
their guys take a crack at your problems. Don't come back with the 'oh, I
shouldn't have to spend my time/money/effort to call them, it should be
right' line. If you consider the sheer volume of lines of code needed to put
these applications together, not to mention having to wade through 'problems'
reported by every user level from expert down to the
why-the-hell-do-you-touch-a-keyboard?, you'd know how difficult it is to
please everyone. As a developer, you take the responsibility to know the
answer, and if you don't know it, figure out who does. If you haven't called
Microsoft for your problems as a last resort because 'you shouldn't have to',
then move to another application and stop crying about the 'limitations' of
Access. Your rant sounds like what I used to hear from Unix programmers,
until they were finally phased out of my client's companies in favor of
people who actually will work to find solutions instead of saying 'i don't
know the answer off of the top of my head, so it can't be fixes'.

And before you say I should be in bed with Billy, know this, I can't stand
the way Microsoft is operating and dominating the market, it IS stifling
development and competition, and yes, he does run his company with more
arrogance than anyone should be able to posess, but it's the best on the
block...if you don't like it, go program a better Linux solution, and let the
rest of us work in peace.
 

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