CMS Versus FP

[Stephen Horrillo]

It seems I'm investing more and more time on learning Mambo Content
Management System. Before I waste too much time I'd like to ask is it worth
devoting the time into learning? I'd eventually like to commercially do web
design. Am I barking up the wrong tree? I've used Front Page but can't seem
to get as good results as with Mambo. But I've seen a few good FP sites so
I'm wondering if I'd be better off becoming proficient in FP. What's the
logical progression?

--
Warmest regards,

Stephen Horrillo, Realtor / C.Ht.
For MLS & Computer Training: http://www.BrokerAgentTraining.com
Realtors Earn Over 100% at EXIT: http://www.over100percent.com

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

If you chose to reply, let not start this cross-posting again, as this is the same individual that
start this before.

Remove "alt.www.webmaster" when replying

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Scott Bryce]

I'd eventually like to commercially do web
design. Am I barking up the wrong tree? I've used Front Page but can't seem
to get as good results as with Mambo. But I've seen a few good FP sites so
I'm wondering if I'd be better off becoming proficient in FP.

There may be a few here who disagree with me, but I would say that using
FP to build a site on a paying job is inexcusable.

(OK, I just noticed the cross post. Since I don't know which NG you
follow, I'll leave the cross post in. I stand by what I wrote. I'm ready
for the flames.)

What's the logical progression?

Learn about interface design. Learn how people use the web. Learn what
makes one site useable and another site unusable.

Learn HTML.

Learn CSS.

Learn at least 1 scripting language that can be used to do server side
scripting.

Learn SQL.

Unless you work with an artist, you should learn how to use a paint
package somewhere in there.

 

[Windsun]

Let's not start this FP bashing crap again

 

[William Tasso]

It seems I'm investing more and more time on learning Mambo Content
Management System. Before I waste too much time

There's your answer already - if /you/ think it's a waste of time then
there's no chance of learning.

...
I'm wondering if I'd be better off becoming proficient in FP.

Might be good to be proficient at something.

What's the logical progression?

Learn HTML ... as per Scott's post.

 

[David Preston]

There may be a few here who disagree with me, but I would say that using
FP to build a site on a paying job is inexcusable.

(OK, I just noticed the cross post. Since I don't know which NG you
follow, I'll leave the cross post in. I stand by what I wrote. I'm ready
for the flames.)



Learn about interface design. Learn how people use the web. Learn what
makes one site useable and another site unusable.

Learn HTML.

Learn CSS.

Learn at least 1 scripting language that can be used to do server side
scripting.

Learn SQL.

Unless you work with an artist, you should learn how to use a paint
package somewhere in there.

A couple of observations-

If you become very proficient, there may be money to be made being an
expert in using Mambo.

If you want to make the most out of a Mambo site, you will want to
customise the look and feel of the resulting site, which will require
you to learn something about CSS & HTML, if only to customise an
existing template. And you'll probably want to at least create some
original graphics.

If you eventually want to customise or create from scratch some Mambo
components, modules or mambots (various levels of plug ins, for the
uninitiated), you will need to understand most of the above plus PHP and
MySQL, and a bit of XML.

So I at least don't think you'd be wasting your time.

Unless you just want to build a site using a wizard, when you'd be
better off with Microsoft.

 

[Stephen Horrillo]

There may be a few here who disagree with me, but I would say that using
FP to build a site on a paying job is inexcusable.

(OK, I just noticed the cross post. Since I don't know which NG you
follow, I'll leave the cross post in. I stand by what I wrote. I'm ready
for the flames.)

I read both groups but I'm beginning to realize that they are rival groups
somehow. Like mixing vinegar and baking soda. My last post a couple of
weeks ago started out productive enough but soon degraded to a flame war. I
soul have learned my less not to mix sand boxes. I guess in the web design
world it's some sort of sin to use Front Page.

--
Warmest regards,

Stephen Horrillo, Realtor / C.Ht.
For MLS & Computer Training: http://www.BrokerAgentTraining.com
Realtors Earn Over 100% at EXIT: http://www.over100percent.com

 

[Stephen Horrillo]

If you want to make the most out of a Mambo site, you will want to
customise the look and feel of the resulting site, which will require
you to learn something about CSS & HTML, if only to customise an
existing template. And you'll probably want to at least create some
original graphics.

If you eventually want to customise or create from scratch some Mambo
components, modules or mambots (various levels of plug ins, for the
uninitiated), you will need to understand most of the above plus PHP and
MySQL, and a bit of XML.

So I at least don't think you'd be wasting your time.

Unless you just want to build a site using a wizard, when you'd be
better off with Microsoft.

Being that I have constant contact with Realtors, they will probably be a
large percentage of my customers. I train them so there's a high level of
trust. I see this as a great opportunity to possibly introduce them to other
helpful products but I don't want to betray that trust either so I've been
looking for other products I believe in. I'm just having a heck of a time
finding anyone or anything I would recommend. After a bad experience with an
SEO person, as the saying goes, "if you want it done right you got to do it
yourself." This is what led me to start taking web design more seriously.

The thing is, in the world of Realtors, 90% are barely making it and 10% (if
even that) are making big bucks, so there's a need for low cost sites for
the majority. For them a template (wizard created) site might be more
affordable. But I'd like do the high end sites too. Right now I've seen some
are paying 10k for a template site. IMO something's wrong with that picture.

--
Warmest regards,

Stephen Horrillo, Realtor / C.Ht.
For MLS & Computer Training: http://www.BrokerAgentTraining.com
Realtors Earn Over 100% at EXIT: http://www.over100percent.com

 

[Stephen Horrillo]

Might be good to be proficient at something.

I needed to hear that. Thanks.

--
Warmest regards,

Stephen Horrillo, Realtor / C.Ht.
For MLS & Computer Training: http://www.BrokerAgentTraining.com
Realtors Earn Over 100% at EXIT: http://www.over100percent.com

 

[William Tasso]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:14:35 -0000, Stephen Horrillo

[microsoft.public.frontpage.client & alt.www.webmaster]

I read both groups but I'm beginning to realize that they are rival
groups somehow. Like mixing vinegar and baking soda. My last posta
couple of weeks ago started out productive enough but soon degradedto a
flame war. I soul have learned my less not to mix sand boxes.

Seemes to me the 'lesson' was taken on board with some success.

I guess in the web design
world it's some sort of sin to use Front Page.

Did you actually read any of the posts in that previous thread? Use the
archive to find posts by Eric Jarvis - just about the most sane commentry
wrt FP: godsend or the devil's child?

 

[Karim]

It seems I'm investing more and more time on learning Mambo Content
Management System. Before I waste too much time I'd like to ask is it worth
devoting the time into learning? I'd eventually like to commercially do web
design. Am I barking up the wrong tree? I've used Front Page but can't seem
to get as good results as with Mambo. But I've seen a few good FP sites so
I'm wondering if I'd be better off becoming proficient in FP. What's the
logical progression?

A CMS is not the same as a web design tool which FP is. A CMS is geared
towards changing mainly content instead of creating a site from scratch.
Usually a CMS is for users who do not know html, css..etc. You should start
learning these first.



Karim

 

[GreyWyvern]

I guess in the web design
world it's some sort of sin to use Front Page.

The child learns quickly. But he is not a Jedi yet.

Grey

 

[Eric Jarvis]

There may be a few here who disagree with me, but I would say that using
FP to build a site on a paying job is inexcusable.

(OK, I just noticed the cross post. Since I don't know which NG you
follow, I'll leave the cross post in. I stand by what I wrote. I'm ready
for the flames.)


Learn about interface design. Learn how people use the web. Learn what
makes one site useable and another site unusable.

Lean the rudiments of marketing.

Learn HTML.

Learn CSS.

Learn a little about what's going on technically on a web server. You
don't need to know enough to run one, you do need to know enough to
communicate effectively with those who do.

Learn a little about how search engines operate.

Learn at least 1 scripting language that can be used to do server side
scripting.

Learn SQL.

Unless you work with an artist, you should learn how to use a paint
package somewhere in there.

Even if you do end up working with a graphic designer you'll also need to
know at least a little about how graphic design works.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:14:35 -0000, Stephen Horrillo

[microsoft.public.frontpage.client & alt.www.webmaster]

I read both groups but I'm beginning to realize that they are rival
groups somehow. Like mixing vinegar and baking soda. My last posta
couple of weeks ago started out productive enough but soon degradedto a
flame war. I soul have learned my less not to mix sand boxes.

Seemes to me the 'lesson' was taken on board with some success.

I guess in the web design
world it's some sort of sin to use Front Page.

Did you actually read any of the posts in that previous thread? Use the
archive to find posts by Eric Jarvis - just about the most sane commentry
wrt FP: godsend or the devil's child?

Just a poor sod who took a job that involved inheriting a mission critical
site built using FP Extensions. The best way to learn about FP is by
having no choice but clear up the mess it's left when it has been used to
do more than it's capable of (ie to build a high traffic mission critical
web site). It's also something I wouldn't wish on anyone.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

I needed to hear that. Thanks.

Bear in mind that many of the basics of building effective web sites are
relatively straightforward. Not everyone has the "knack" for it, but
enough do that it's fairly competitive as a field. However there's more to
it than that. Most successful designers specialise in one way or another.
For instance I specialise in operating multilingually and internationally,
some here specialise in sites for the music business, or sites for the
tourist industry, some specialise in dealing with companies in their own
locality.

So look at what you bring to the table as an individual. What is going to
make you the very best person in the world to build a specific web site,
and then also build on those qualities.

 

[Steve Easton]

If you're "really" good you don't need any web site program.
All you need is a computer with a browser, and a domain account on an Apache / Unix server that has
the Web Masters control Panel.

I would strongly recommend that you *not* confuse a CMS utility with a Web site editing and
management program because there is no comparison.

;-)

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed............
........................with a computer

 

[Wally S]

If you know HTML and CSS, what is there that you cannot do with FP? Is there
any WYSIWYG editor that will give you absolutely everything without needing
a little tweaking?

Wally S

 

[Scott Bryce]

Eric Jarvis wrote:

<a lot of good stuff>

I expected someone to step in and embellish the list. Your additions to
the list are great.

Another thing to know a bit about is web security. This is one of my own
weaknesses.

 

[William Tasso]

...
Another thing to know a bit about is web security. This is one of my own
weaknesses.

Tooo much detail for a light read, but this article contains lots of good
sense.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnnetsec/html/openhack.asp

For more info about the competition, use your favourite s/e "open hack"

 

[Eric Jarvis]

If you know HTML and CSS, what is there that you cannot do with FP? Is there
any WYSIWYG editor that will give you absolutely everything without needing
a little tweaking?

If you know html and css then what you need is an effective text editor
that allows you to set up macros, has syntax highlighting, a good
find/replace tool, and a small footprint. FP is not that tool on too many
grounds.

FP is an OK prototyping tool. That's all you can do with any WYSIWNEG
editor. You can't get professional quality mark up from any primarily
visual editor since the web is not a solely visual medium.

You shouldn't be settling for simply "tweaking" the output of FP. What you
do is mock up a prototype and then create mark up and styling from the
ground up to get the same result. It may be worth taking a look at the
html that FP has produced, but it's not efficient to use it as the basis
of the site.