Complaining about the Ribbon

[Bill]

What is even more fun, is you can put command groups on the QAB, not just
individual commands. So from a minimized Ribbon you only need 2 clicks. You
do not have to open up the entire Ribbon to get (for instance) the Paragraph
group of functions in Word.
If I could have 2 (or more) QABs, I could recreate the old menu bar
functionality.
I would also like to be able to specify the use of Small Icons (like you
could in the OS for WindowsXP) in the Ribbon.

Oh well, now that Windows7 is here this is all a mute point...

Hi Bill,

All false, of course.

--
Cheers
macropod
[Microsoft MVP - Word]

Question: Why when you found it (insert row) did you not put it on the
Quick Access Bar?
Why don't you use ctrl-F1 and turn the Ribbon into a tabbed menu bar?

Just wondering...
PS: I am in the last group personally, but my company is forcing me to be
in the second...

 

[macropod]

I can't imaging what the connection you see between Windows 7 and the Office 2007 ribbon. After all, one's an OS, the other is s
suite of applications.

--
Cheers
macropod
[Microsoft MVP - Word]

What is even more fun, is you can put command groups on the QAB, not just
individual commands. So from a minimized Ribbon you only need 2 clicks. You
do not have to open up the entire Ribbon to get (for instance) the Paragraph
group of functions in Word.
If I could have 2 (or more) QABs, I could recreate the old menu bar
functionality.
I would also like to be able to specify the use of Small Icons (like you
could in the OS for WindowsXP) in the Ribbon.

Oh well, now that Windows7 is here this is all a mute point...

Hi Bill,

Those who have to like it:
-Microsoft employees
-Microsoft MVPs
-Microsoft Partners

All false, of course.

--
Cheers
macropod
[Microsoft MVP - Word]

Question: Why when you found it (insert row) did you not put it on the
Quick Access Bar?
Why don't you use ctrl-F1 and turn the Ribbon into a tabbed menu bar?

Just wondering...
PS: I am in the last group personally, but my company is forcing me to be
in the second...


:

There are three camps on the ribbon. Those who like, those who have to like
it, and those who hate it.

Those who like it:
-Inexperienced users
-Microsoft UI design team members
-people who like change for the sake of change

Those who have to like it:
-Microsoft employees
-Microsoft MVPs
-Microsoft Partners

Those who hate it:
-Experienced users
-Everyone not covered by any of the above catagories

I personally know 1 person who honestly likes the ribbon.

There was a small outbreak of office2007 in my organization, and for a
moment it looked like we might lose containment. So I installed it on my
primary machine and used it for 6 months so I could support it if I had to.
I watched Jensen's presentation on what they where thinking. I went through
all of the online training on using the new ribbon. I used to flash widget to
track down where all of the commands went on the new system, and gave it much
more time and effort than a simple UI change should ever consume. After all,
I may someday have to support some poor user on a o07 machine.

While the MVPs and Microsoft people kept claiming it would get easier over
time, it only got more aggravating. There was one command in particular that
put me over the edge: In excel, Insert->Row. Its a simple command, I use it
a lot maintaining lists of things like IP addresses, hardware components,
budgets, action items, etc. The problem? The insert commands are not on the
Insert ribbon. They are spread all over the place. The one I need is
actually on the home ribbon. In theory, it should be easier to find because
most of the time the home ribbon is the active ribbon. But muscle memory
is a hard thing to overcome, and every single time I went to insert a row I
found it missing on the Insert ribbon. In the end, I found it so frustrating
to use I formatted the machine.

Office2007 is a no go in our organization. We simply do not have the
resources to retrain 2000 users on a new office interface. Even if Microsoft
decided to fund the retraining, the ribbon isn't even the primary factor
preventing its deployment. Its just the one I personally found the most
irritating.



:


Resistance is futile. Yes.

Possibly, but avoidance isn't. Time to give OpenOffice a look.

People who hate the Ribbon say that a lot, and yet they still spend week
after week, month after month here in this newsgroup complaining about
the Ribbon.

Instead of over in the OpenOffice newsgroups complaining about why
OpenOffice Calc doesn't cleanly open all of their Excel files.


-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
Author - The Lawyer's Guide to Microsoft Outlook 2007:
http://tinyurl.com/5m3f5q

 

[Tim Sorrentino]

Milly, I'm obviously new to this debate, because I just acquired (NOT BY
CHOICE) Office 2007. I've been using Microsoft applications since 1987 and
I've seen so many stellar improvements in many of the Microsoft applications,
however the Microsoft operating systems have always been more than a
dissapointment. Well the Office Fluent user interface; more familiarly know
as the "Ribbon" is just about the MOST dissapointing thing that Microsoft
could have ever done to the Office Application Suite. It's worse than
Windows 98 and Windows ME combined. You obviously have no real background
and experience in Office Applications or you're just looking for job security
by backing Microsoft's claims that the "Ribbon" is intuitive and productive.
I've been the computer guru/geek for my entire career beginning in 1978 and
have used a multitude of hardware and software and have written code and
programs on numerous computing platforms. And I've seen a lot of "crappy"
software come and go and I think the "Ribbon" should go. Microsoft was very
short-sighted not to offer the classic interface as an option to users that
REALLY know how to use the Office tools and features to the maximum
capability. It's kind of like when Coca-Cola, convinced by focus groups and
market research,
introduced New Coke. Coca-Cola sales plummeted and hardcore Coca-Cola
drinkers demanded the return of Coca-Cola classic. My guess is that there
are number of users that think that changing a font in Microsoft Word is
their biggest accomplishment of the day and other uses that still use their
desktop calculator to do the math and then enter the answer into a cell on a
spreadsheet because they don't know that Excel will do the math for them.
I've been around and seen scores of "Power-less" users that could care less
if the user interface looked like a pet rock; they still wouldn't know or
care how to use it, let alone voice an opinion about how unproductive the
"Ribbon" is. I used to be leary of the Windows operating systems and now I
have to be concerned about the Office "productivity" (or lack of
productivity) applications. Microsoft gets a D- on this one and I suggest
that you do your homework before you call the "classic" Office interface "
kludgy. Beth Melton ought to get a clue as well! Microsoft could've added
the improved features with or without the "Ribbon". I've had to spend quite
a bit of time creating and customizing my Quick Access Toolbars because it's
faster than being bogged down searching through the ribbon mapping workbooks.
Then again the Quick Access toolbar function has been in Office applications
for quite some time....it's called customizing your toolbar. End the
frustration for those of us that truly know how to use the Office
applications by offering the option of the classic user interface and let the
other use-less user play with their pet rock. P.S. there are a number of
third party application providers that have written add-ins for Office 2007
that allow users to ability to revert to the classic user interface....hmmmm
why would so many developers spend the time to create these add-ins if there
wasn't any demand for them? My guess is that the demand is SO much greater
than Microsoft can even imagine; most users probably don't even bother with
the Microsoft blogs and forums, they just "suck it up" and buy the "classic"
interface from the third party providers.

If you have the time to spare, try downloading the Windows Media version of
this talk given by Jensen:
http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/2008/03/12/the-story-of-the-ribbon.aspx

I think that provides the most solid foundation for Microsoft's decision to
move away from menus and to a more (to me at least) intuitive Ribbon. It is
also fascinating.

--
Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]

Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact.
How to ask a question: http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375


After furious head scratching, FH asked:

| I have suggestions for improvement, but I think such suggestions
| would fall on deaf ears here. My feeling is that this is dangerous
| territory within which to question the ribbon. I'm not looking for
| "get over it" replies. I won't get over it. I will move on to
| different software. I am a fan of most of Microsoft's products and
| consider Office's feature set far superior to competition, so this is
| my last resort. What else can I do? The ribbon is simply a deal
| breaker for me. I've given it a shot, found it unacceptable, and have
| to make a decision. Productivity is what I am after, and ribbon
| doesn't deliver. Perhaps for some, but not for me. (I can't think of
| a more controversial decision Microsoft has made in recent years.)
|
| If you provide a link for MS's motivation to switch from the 2003
| interface to the ribbon, I will read it, but I can't read through all
| of Jenson's blog. Many have said the ribbon is better without
| providing a single reason why, save for vague things like usability
| (without naming why it supposedly improves usability). Thanks for
| providing the link to that, by the way. I'll try to contact him.
|
| "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" wrote:
|
|| 1. "After furious head scratching" is a part of my generic quote -
|| please feel free to review any of my thousands of other posts using
|| the same quote. It is not personal. I don't know you so why should
|| I make a personal comment just to you? Besides, I don't know of a
|| single other MVP who uses the same quoting style.
||
|| 2. The add-in I referred you to is free - no cost, nada, zilch,
|| nothing, completely usable without payment. If you want the full
|| program, you will need to pay. Microsoft is not taking any backward
|| steps on this. Their reasoning, while perhaps not acceptable to
|| some users, is well supported. See point number three.
||
|| 3. The only contact addresses that you will be able to use are the
|| generic ones that say "contact us" or something to that effect. No
|| one is going to give you a direct e-mail contact in Microsoft since
|| the GUI is not controlled by only one person. Even if I knew one,
|| which I don't, I don't work for Microsoft.
||
|| The one address that you can post a comment on is
|| http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh who was the chief architect of the
|| 2007 GUI. However, I don't know if that blog is currently being
|| monitored.
||
|| You might want to stop to read WHY the menu system was discontinued
|| as well to give some perpective about the change and why it was
|| inevitable.
||
|| 4. Have you reviewed the 2003-->2007 tutorials that I posted the
|| link for?
||
|| Suggestions to improve the Ribbon will most likely be more
|| acceptable than a demand to return to what clearly would not work
|| going forward.
||
|| --
|| Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]
||
|| Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact.
|| How to ask a question: http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375
||
||
|| After furious head scratching, FH asked:
||
||| While I appreciate the advice, I really am looking for contact email
||| addresses. Even a generic one. I know about the third party
||| utilities. I will not pay more for something that I think should be
||| included by default (the lite version of that program isn't as good
||| as I need it to be.)
|||
||| I have posted in the past here concerning the ribbon and I don't
||| think that it helps anyone to use the continuous ad-hominems you
||| MVP's like to throw around like "after frustrating head scratching."
||| Is it not possible that some people don't like ribbon for good
||| reasons? Ribbon-cheering will only make it worse (if something else
||| isn't there) and I think will hurt Microsoft as a company in the
||| long run. All of this looks very bad to me going forward,
||| especially since the ribbon-guy is working on the UI for W7, as I
||| understand it. You are blind if you think that there is not a
||| (rather large) contingent of people out there that do not have
||| *good* reasons for not-liking the ribbon. These people consider the
||| *ribbon* to be the kludgy interface.
|||
|||
|||
||| "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" wrote:
|||
|||| Office 2007 is out of development and I doubt they will do anything
|||| to revert to the old kludgy menu system. Office 14 will feature
|||| more applications with Ribboning (like the Outlook main window) to
|||| my understanding.
||||
|||| Even Windows will begin to use that interface.
||||
|||| I suggest that you either revert to Office 2003 or earlier or use
|||| the tutorials here to assist your learning curve:
||||
||
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/training/HA102295841033.aspx?pid=CL100788241033
||||
|||| There are also add-ins that will revert Office 2007 to the earlier
|||| menu system - one free add-in is available from
|||| http://www.pschmid.net
||||
|||| --
|||| Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]
||||
|||| Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact.
|||| How to ask a question: http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375
||||
||||
|||| After furious head scratching, FH asked:
||||
||||| I want to know where I can email the relevant office staff to
||||| suggest changes (i.e, bringing, or at least allowing, the 2003
||||| interface back). I could not find an email link for feature
||||| suggestions or commentary on the help page. I seriously cannot
||||| work with the Ribbon anymore. Today is the last day I will put up
||||| with it (At least at home... unfortunately, I don't have a choice
||||| when working with some clients, although luckily my firm has
||||| refused to adopt 2007 because of the ribbon.) I won't buy another
||||| Office product again that "features" it. The loss of productivity
||||| is still staggering, and I have been using it for at least 11
||||| months now. Office 2007 has a lot of great features I have come
||||| to love, but the ribbon is not one of them. I don't care if it's
||||| there - as long as the old menu is also there, too. I have a lot
||||| more things to say and arguments to make, but I'll save them for
||||| the relevant parties. If anyone knows the proper email
||||| address(es) to contact the Office 07 UI team - or at least
||||| someone who could pass along the message - please post.
|||||
|||||
||||| ----------------
||||| This post is a suggestion for Microsoft, and Microsoft responds to
||||| the suggestions with the most votes. To vote for this suggestion,
||||| click the "I Agree" button in the message pane. If you do not see
||||| the button, follow this link to open the suggestion in the
||||| Microsoft Web-based Newsreader and then click "I Agree" in the
||||| message pane.
|||||
|||||
||||
||
http://www.microsoft.com/office/com...-ddc73e2cc656&dg=microsoft.public.office.misc

 

[Peter Foldes]

You Feel better now Tim.

--
Peter

Please Reply to Newsgroup for the benefit of others
Requests for assistance by email can not and will not be acknowledged.

Milly, I'm obviously new to this debate, because I just acquired (NOT BY
CHOICE) Office 2007. I've been using Microsoft applications since 1987 and

<snipped>

 

[Gordon]

by backing Microsoft's claims that the "Ribbon" is intuitive and
productive.

It is.

I've been the computer guru/geek for my entire career beginning in 1978
and
have used a multitude of hardware and software and have written code and
programs on numerous computing platforms. And I've seen a lot of "crappy"
software come and go and I think the "Ribbon" should go. Microsoft was
very
short-sighted not to offer the classic interface as an option to users
that
REALLY know how to use the Office tools and features to the maximum
capability.

I also have travelled the same route (minus the coding) and as an ADVANCED
user of all versions of Office since Office 95, AND Lotus, AND WordPerfect
and a number of other applications I say it's you that don't have the
application skills to cope with something new!
How can you say in one sentence that you are a "guru" and then can't cope
with a new piece of software?
You should try doing some contract work - you have to be up and running with
an unfamiliar application is a DAY or so...

 

[Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]]

By the way, I don't work for Microsoft so what is your issue with me? Oh,
and refusing to read the blog that explains the reasoning behind the change
while blindly rejecting the change tell me that you have no intention of
understanding.

--
Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]

Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact.
ALWAYS post your Outlook version.
How to ask a question: http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375


After furious head scratching, Tim Sorrentino asked:

| Milly, I'm obviously new to this debate, because I just acquired (NOT
| BY CHOICE) Office 2007. I've been using Microsoft applications since
| 1987 and I've seen so many stellar improvements in many of the
| Microsoft applications, however the Microsoft operating systems have
| always been more than a dissapointment. Well the Office Fluent user
| interface; more familiarly know as the "Ribbon" is just about the
| MOST dissapointing thing that Microsoft could have ever done to the
| Office Application Suite. It's worse than Windows 98 and Windows ME
| combined. You obviously have no real background and experience in
| Office Applications or you're just looking for job security by
| backing Microsoft's claims that the "Ribbon" is intuitive and
| productive. I've been the computer guru/geek for my entire career
| beginning in 1978 and have used a multitude of hardware and software
| and have written code and programs on numerous computing platforms.
| And I've seen a lot of "crappy" software come and go and I think the
| "Ribbon" should go. Microsoft was very short-sighted not to offer
| the classic interface as an option to users that REALLY know how to
| use the Office tools and features to the maximum capability. It's
| kind of like when Coca-Cola, convinced by focus groups and market
| research,
| introduced New Coke. Coca-Cola sales plummeted and hardcore Coca-Cola
| drinkers demanded the return of Coca-Cola classic. My guess is that
| there are number of users that think that changing a font in
| Microsoft Word is their biggest accomplishment of the day and other
| uses that still use their desktop calculator to do the math and then
| enter the answer into a cell on a spreadsheet because they don't know
| that Excel will do the math for them. I've been around and seen
| scores of "Power-less" users that could care less if the user
| interface looked like a pet rock; they still wouldn't know or care
| how to use it, let alone voice an opinion about how unproductive the
| "Ribbon" is. I used to be leary of the Windows operating systems and
| now I have to be concerned about the Office "productivity" (or lack
| of productivity) applications. Microsoft gets a D- on this one and I
| suggest that you do your homework before you call the "classic"
| Office interface " kludgy. Beth Melton ought to get a clue as well!
| Microsoft could've added the improved features with or without the
| "Ribbon". I've had to spend quite a bit of time creating and
| customizing my Quick Access Toolbars because it's faster than being
| bogged down searching through the ribbon mapping workbooks. Then
| again the Quick Access toolbar function has been in Office
| applications for quite some time....it's called customizing your
| toolbar. End the frustration for those of us that truly know how to
| use the Office applications by offering the option of the classic
| user interface and let the other use-less user play with their pet
| rock. P.S. there are a number of third party application providers
| that have written add-ins for Office 2007 that allow users to ability
| to revert to the classic user interface....hmmmm why would so many
| developers spend the time to create these add-ins if there wasn't any
| demand for them? My guess is that the demand is SO much greater than
| Microsoft can even imagine; most users probably don't even bother
| with the Microsoft blogs and forums, they just "suck it up" and buy
| the "classic" interface from the third party providers.
|
|
| "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" wrote:
|
|| If you have the time to spare, try downloading the Windows Media
|| version of this talk given by Jensen:
||
http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/2008/03/12/the-story-of-the-ribbon.aspx
||
|| I think that provides the most solid foundation for Microsoft's
|| decision to move away from menus and to a more (to me at least)
|| intuitive Ribbon. It is also fascinating.
||
|| --
|| Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]
||
|| Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact.
|| How to ask a question: http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375
||
||
|| After furious head scratching, FH asked:
||
||| I have suggestions for improvement, but I think such suggestions
||| would fall on deaf ears here. My feeling is that this is dangerous
||| territory within which to question the ribbon. I'm not looking for
||| "get over it" replies. I won't get over it. I will move on to
||| different software. I am a fan of most of Microsoft's products and
||| consider Office's feature set far superior to competition, so this
||| is my last resort. What else can I do? The ribbon is simply a deal
||| breaker for me. I've given it a shot, found it unacceptable, and
||| have to make a decision. Productivity is what I am after, and ribbon
||| doesn't deliver. Perhaps for some, but not for me. (I can't think of
||| a more controversial decision Microsoft has made in recent years.)
|||
||| If you provide a link for MS's motivation to switch from the 2003
||| interface to the ribbon, I will read it, but I can't read through
||| all of Jenson's blog. Many have said the ribbon is better without
||| providing a single reason why, save for vague things like usability
||| (without naming why it supposedly improves usability). Thanks for
||| providing the link to that, by the way. I'll try to contact him.
|||
||| "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" wrote:
|||
|||| 1. "After furious head scratching" is a part of my generic quote -
|||| please feel free to review any of my thousands of other posts using
|||| the same quote. It is not personal. I don't know you so why should
|||| I make a personal comment just to you? Besides, I don't know of a
|||| single other MVP who uses the same quoting style.
||||
|||| 2. The add-in I referred you to is free - no cost, nada, zilch,
|||| nothing, completely usable without payment. If you want the full
|||| program, you will need to pay. Microsoft is not taking any
|||| backward steps on this. Their reasoning, while perhaps not
|||| acceptable to some users, is well supported. See point number
|||| three.
||||
|||| 3. The only contact addresses that you will be able to use are the
|||| generic ones that say "contact us" or something to that effect. No
|||| one is going to give you a direct e-mail contact in Microsoft since
|||| the GUI is not controlled by only one person. Even if I knew one,
|||| which I don't, I don't work for Microsoft.
||||
|||| The one address that you can post a comment on is
|||| http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh who was the chief architect of the
|||| 2007 GUI. However, I don't know if that blog is currently being
|||| monitored.
||||
|||| You might want to stop to read WHY the menu system was discontinued
|||| as well to give some perpective about the change and why it was
|||| inevitable.
||||
|||| 4. Have you reviewed the 2003-->2007 tutorials that I posted the
|||| link for?
||||
|||| Suggestions to improve the Ribbon will most likely be more
|||| acceptable than a demand to return to what clearly would not work
|||| going forward.
||||
|||| --
|||| Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]
||||
|||| Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact.
|||| How to ask a question: http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375
||||
||||
|||| After furious head scratching, FH asked:
||||
||||| While I appreciate the advice, I really am looking for contact
||||| email addresses. Even a generic one. I know about the third party
||||| utilities. I will not pay more for something that I think should
||||| be included by default (the lite version of that program isn't as
||||| good as I need it to be.)
|||||
||||| I have posted in the past here concerning the ribbon and I don't
||||| think that it helps anyone to use the continuous ad-hominems you
||||| MVP's like to throw around like "after frustrating head
||||| scratching." Is it not possible that some people don't like
||||| ribbon for good reasons? Ribbon-cheering will only make it worse
||||| (if something else isn't there) and I think will hurt Microsoft
||||| as a company in the long run. All of this looks very bad to me
||||| going forward, especially since the ribbon-guy is working on the
||||| UI for W7, as I understand it. You are blind if you think that
||||| there is not a (rather large) contingent of people out there that
||||| do not have
||||| *good* reasons for not-liking the ribbon. These people consider
||||| the
||||| *ribbon* to be the kludgy interface.
|||||
|||||
|||||
||||| "Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]" wrote:
|||||
|||||| Office 2007 is out of development and I doubt they will do
|||||| anything to revert to the old kludgy menu system. Office 14
|||||| will feature more applications with Ribboning (like the Outlook
|||||| main window) to my understanding.
||||||
|||||| Even Windows will begin to use that interface.
||||||
|||||| I suggest that you either revert to Office 2003 or earlier or use
|||||| the tutorials here to assist your learning curve:
||||||
||||
||
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/training/HA102295841033.aspx?pid=CL100788241033
||||||
|||||| There are also add-ins that will revert Office 2007 to the
|||||| earlier menu system - one free add-in is available from
|||||| http://www.pschmid.net
||||||
|||||| --
|||||| Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]
||||||
|||||| Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact.
|||||| How to ask a question: http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375
||||||
||||||
|||||| After furious head scratching, FH asked:
||||||
||||||| I want to know where I can email the relevant office staff to
||||||| suggest changes (i.e, bringing, or at least allowing, the 2003
||||||| interface back). I could not find an email link for feature
||||||| suggestions or commentary on the help page. I seriously cannot
||||||| work with the Ribbon anymore. Today is the last day I will put
||||||| up with it (At least at home... unfortunately, I don't have a
||||||| choice when working with some clients, although luckily my firm
||||||| has refused to adopt 2007 because of the ribbon.) I won't buy
||||||| another Office product again that "features" it. The loss of
||||||| productivity is still staggering, and I have been using it for
||||||| at least 11 months now. Office 2007 has a lot of great features
||||||| I have come to love, but the ribbon is not one of them. I don't
||||||| care if it's there - as long as the old menu is also there,
||||||| too. I have a lot more things to say and arguments to make, but
||||||| I'll save them for the relevant parties. If anyone knows the
||||||| proper email address(es) to contact the Office 07 UI team - or
||||||| at least someone who could pass along the message - please post.
|||||||
|||||||
||||||| ----------------
||||||| This post is a suggestion for Microsoft, and Microsoft responds
||||||| to the suggestions with the most votes. To vote for this
||||||| suggestion, click the "I Agree" button in the message pane. If
||||||| you do not see the button, follow this link to open the
||||||| suggestion in the Microsoft Web-based Newsreader and then click
||||||| "I Agree" in the message pane.
|||||||
|||||||
||||||
||||
||
http://www.microsoft.com/office/com...-ddc73e2cc656&dg=microsoft.public.office.misc