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[Ben M. Schorr - MVP]

Aloha Rainald,

Bugs and problems will be fixed, undoubtedly, with service packs or updates
but new features won't be added that way.

As for working on the next version...they started that the day after they
checked in their RTM code of this one.

-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr - MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
Microsoft OneNote FAQ: http://www.factplace.com/onenotefaq.htm

 

[Kathy Jacobs]

As for working on the next version...they started that the day after they
checked in their RTM code of this one.

<more clipage>

If they even waited that long.... Planning for one version in most companies
starts before the previous version goes out the door. In fact, some project
managers will tell you that planning for the next version of a piece of
software starts the first time a bug is answered with the equivalent of "too
large of impact for this release".

My two cents....

--
Kathryn Jacobs, Microsoft MVP OneNote and PowerPoint
Author of Kathy Jacobs on PowerPoint - Available now from Holy Macro! Books
Get PowerPoint and OneNote information at www.onppt.com

I believe life is meant to be lived. But:
if we live without making a difference, it makes no difference that we lived

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

software starts the first time a bug is answered with the equivalent
of "too

large of impact for this release".

The nice thing about the being over is that I don't have to see that
message anymore constantly!!

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
Office 2007 Beta 2 Technical Refresh (B2TR):
http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/09/18/43
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Patrick Schmid [MVP] shared these words of wisdom:

The nice thing about the being over is that I don't have to see that
message anymore constantly!!

LOL
I believe you!!

Have heard that only ways toooo often when Beta-testing Borland's
"Visual dBASE" and later "dBASE 2000" :-(

Rainald

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Ben M. Schorr - MVP shared these words of wisdom:

Bugs and problems will be fixed, undoubtedly, with service packs or
updates but new features won't be added that way.

That's what I had in mind.
I would not expect steps forward as introduced by the SPs for ON 2003.

Question is, however, often if a request means fixing problems or a
new feature.
Take the printing issues, f.e.: IMHO the lack of formatting pages and
the missing of logical pagebreaks is a problem urgently needing to be
fixed; asking on this would not be a request for a new feature.
I would say the same for the really odd problems of sizing things
printed into ON (be it PDFs ore PowerPoint slides).

Not so clear the need to have the possibility to tie objects
(paragraphs of text, images, ink annotations) together by *grouping*
them. IMO this would be a true essential for an application aiming at
users who want to annotate imported stuff. Hardly usable at present.
But one might say that this would be a new feature.

As for working on the next version...they started that the day
after they checked in their RTM code of this one.

They even did that a long time earlier. We heard many calls from
Patrick months ago (something like "post your suggestion in Connect
now, the team is working on the concept for the next version").
Unfortunately I did never get the suggestions on my loooong list ready
for posting them [siiiigh]

Rainald

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

Question is, however, often if a request means fixing problems or a

new feature.

Fixing a problem means fixing a bug. Something that crashes e.g.

Take the printing issues, f.e.: IMHO the lack of formatting pages and
the missing of logical pagebreaks is a problem urgently needing to be
fixed; asking on this would not be a request for a new feature.

I'd say all printing things are feature requests.

I would say the same for the really odd problems of sizing things
printed into ON (be it PDFs ore PowerPoint slides).

The sizing issue might be a fix.

Not so clear the need to have the possibility to tie objects
(paragraphs of text, images, ink annotations) together by *grouping*
them. IMO this would be a true essential for an application aiming at
users who want to annotate imported stuff. Hardly usable at present.
But one might say that this would be a new feature.

Yes, that's a feature.

Unfortunately I did never get the suggestions on my loooong list ready
for posting them [siiiigh]

There still is time
They are still in the conceptual phase for the next version as far as I
know.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
Office 2007 Beta 2 Technical Refresh (B2TR):
http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/09/18/43
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Patrick Schmid [MVP] shared these words of wisdom:

Fixing a problem means fixing a bug. Something that crashes e.g.

Depends on the definition.
From my days in software development I have a far broader range in
mind.
"Crashes" IMO can not be the relevant criterion.
Serious problems for doing normal work as needed (at least "show
stoppers) would also fall in this category.

I'd say all printing things are feature requests.

Really "ALL" printing things?
How about what damo posted today (thread "Printing Fixes", Message-ID:
<[email protected]>):
|| Does anyone know if printing from ON2007 using auto
|| page size is going to be "fixed" so that it doesnt
|| cut images or ink in half at page breaks?
|| i.e. get made a little more intelligent?

|| I'd use the A4 paper setting but that does odd
|| things too, eg. shrink what I've written over the
|| whole page to about 75% when I print it out.
|| And it alway leaves a big (1 inch?) margin down
|| the right even though I have it set to 1cm.

BTW: My desire for "logical pagebreaks" did refer to the odd behavior
of ON to just break images as it's will. IMO the lack of at least an
*option* "no pagebreak in images" is a true bug.

The sizing issue might be a fix.

Let's hope we might be able to convince the team ;-)

Yes, that's a feature.

IMO the most important of all design flaws [siiiiigh]

Unfortunately I did never get the suggestions on my loooong list
ready for posting them [siiiigh]

There still is time
They are still in the conceptual phase for the next version as far
as I know.

OK.
So I'll check things in the shipped version (as soon as our department
will be able to clear the download with MS) thoroughly, go through my
notes on bugs and missing features and then start the outliner in ON
(which BTW not is its strongest part [siiigh]) ;-)

Rainald

 

[Ben M. Schorr - MVP]

Aloha Rainald,

Patrick Schmid [MVP] shared these words of wisdom:

Depends on the definition.
From my days in software development I have a far broader range in
mind.
"Crashes" IMO can not be the relevant criterion.
Serious problems for doing normal work as needed (at least "show
stoppers) would also fall in this category.

Who gets to define what "normal work" and "needed" means, though? Some could
argue that not having OLE support is a bug because some people
"need" OLE support to do their "normal work."

Yes, that's a feature.

IMO the most important of all design flaws [siiiiigh]

Perhaps, but as designed nonetheless which makes it not a bug.

There still is time
They are still in the conceptual phase for the next version as far
as I know.

OK.
So I'll check things in the shipped version (as soon as our department
will be able to clear the download with MS) thoroughly, go through my
notes on bugs and missing features and then start the outliner in ON
(which BTW not is its strongest part [siiigh]) ;-)

Yep, start/keep suggesting features for the next version.



-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr - MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
Microsoft OneNote FAQ: http://www.factplace.com/onenotefaq.htm

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

So I'll check things in the shipped version (as soon as our department

will be able to clear the download with MS) thoroughly, go through my
notes on bugs and missing features and then start the outliner in ON
(which BTW not is its strongest part [siiigh]) ;-)

I am trying right now to set get an ON notebook onto my webserver using
WebDAV, so far without much luck (and as I heard from the team, I might
not end up having a lot of luck with that )
If I manage to do it though, I'll post the login information here so
that feature suggestions & bug fixes can be collected in one ON
Notebook.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
Office 2007 Beta 2 Technical Refresh (B2TR):
http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/09/18/43
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Patrick Schmid [MVP] shared these words of wisdom:

I am trying right now to set get an ON notebook onto my webserver
using WebDAV, so far without much luck (and as I heard from the
team, I might not end up having a lot of luck with that )

Great idea.
Let's hope you might manage it.
AFAICS quite some folks have been asking for using this feature.
And I for one would simple *love* it, could I place a notebook (or
more than one) on my website to make it/them available for my
students - as (a) an inteligent replacement f.e. for my interim page
http://www.hera.fh-heilbronn.de/archiv.htm
[at the moment "parked" at the wrong place] and (b) a subsitute for
the usage of our not too intelligent e-Learning platform "Ilias" as
well.

If I manage to do it though, I'll post the login information here so
that feature suggestions & bug fixes can be collected in one ON
Notebook.

Oh yes, pls do so.
Good luck! (said selfish enough <g>)

Rainald

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Ben M. Schorr - MVP shared these words of wisdom:

Aloha Rainald,

Patrick Schmid [MVP] shared these words of wisdom:

Depends on the definition.
From my days in software development I have a far broader range in
mind.
"Crashes" IMO can not be the relevant criterion.
Serious problems for doing normal work as needed (at least "show
stoppers) would also fall in this category.

Who gets to define what "normal work" and "needed" means, though?
Some could argue that not having OLE support is a bug because some
people "need" OLE support to do their "normal work."

Not so clear the need to have the possibility to tie objects
(paragraphs of text, images, ink annotations) together by
*grouping* them. IMO this would be a true essential for an
application aiming at users who want to annotate imported stuff.
Hardly usable at present. But one might say that this would be a
new feature.
Yes, that's a feature.

IMO the most important of all design flaws [siiiiigh]

Perhaps, but as designed nonetheless which makes it not a bug.

There still is time
They are still in the conceptual phase for the next version as far
as I know.

OK.
So I'll check things in the shipped version (as soon as our
department will be able to clear the download with MS) thoroughly,
go through my notes on bugs and missing features and then start
the outliner in ON (which BTW not is its strongest part [siiigh])
;-)

Yep, start/keep suggesting features for the next version.



-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr - MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
Microsoft OneNote FAQ: http://www.factplace.com/onenotefaq.htm

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Ben M. Schorr - MVP shared these words of wisdom:

Grüß Gott, Ben!

Who gets to define what "normal work" and "needed" means, though?
Some could argue that not having OLE support is a bug because some
people "need" OLE support to do their "normal work."

It *always* is a question of "who gets to define" [grin,siiiigh]!!!
And by that a question of who has the "power to define".

IMO the OLE example is well given to exceed the limits.
Not to include OLE was - AFAICS - a fundamental decision of the
designers. We may see that as a wise decision or not (I would vote for
the latter, although I'd admit that including this kind of technology
might have meant huge efforts and/or even have been impossible with
the file format already almost being of the type
"egg-laying-wool-milk-pig" <g>).

Different, however, with the really odd printing issues.
IMO really no one can deny that breaking pages of an imported PDF on
printing or putting 85+ PowerPoint slides just on one *page* and
printing with pagebreaks almost at random would not be "show stoppers"
and hardly anyone might define them as "well thought out".

Not so clear the need to have the possibility to tie objects
(paragraphs of text, images, ink annotations) together by
*grouping* them. IMO this would be a true essential for an
application aiming at users who want to annotate imported stuff.
Hardly usable at present. But one might say that this would be a
new feature.

Yes, that's a feature.

IMO the most important of all design flaws [siiiiigh]

Perhaps, but as designed nonetheless which makes it not a bug.

Depends.
IMHO the equation "WAD <> bug" does not work.
IMHO seriously wrong design flaws have to be regarded as a bug.

Pfiat'di (=Bavarian: bye for now, all the best)
Rainald

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

IMO the OLE example is well given to exceed the limits.

Not to include OLE was - AFAICS - a fundamental decision of the
designers. We may see that as a wise decision or not (I would vote for
the latter, although I'd admit that including this kind of technology
might have meant huge efforts and/or even have been impossible with
the file format already almost being of the type
"egg-laying-wool-milk-pig" <g>).

In my opinion, OLE is a dinosaur of the past. It's complicated to
handle, complicated to implemented and complicated to maintain. I think
the future of integration across programs is with XML and I hope that ON
will never offer OLE.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
Office 2007 Beta 2 Technical Refresh (B2TR):
http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/09/18/43
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
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[Rainald Taesler]

Patrick Schmid [MVP] shared these words of wisdom:

In my opinion, OLE is a dinosaur of the past.

Thanks a lot, dear Patrick.
You just match what I had thought but deleted from my last posting.

Although "dinosaur" might be a bit overdrawn (I'd rather say
"innovation of the bronze age" <g>), I fully agree in that OLE -
inspite of all it's merits - is technology-wise a "thing of past
glory" (which - BTW - even was propagated under a wrong label: It
never was "linking *and* embedding" , just an either/or).
To be honest: I had written the latter in my reply to Ben (as an
aside) but on re-read in the out-basket I deleted that because my

It's complicated to
handle, complicated to implemented and complicated to maintain. I
think the future of integration across programs is with XML and I
hope that ON will never offer OLE.

Unfortunately I've been out of software design and programming for a
couple of years now [siiiigh] and therefore I can not say anything on
the implementation of OLE-alike things via XML and/or some other
technology. And I have got a bit reluctant to clap my hands whenever a
"new pig is driven through the village" (as we say over here in
Germany).
But IMO we'd really need something to that effect!!
This fantastic piece of software named "OneNote 2007" would have been
even far better, would it provide the functionality of not only
passively "embedding" files but provide the means to *actively* work
with such files by editing them; and - even more important - allow for
seeing the updated version of an embedded file. An Excel chart with
updated figures just as an example, or a Word document with changes as
another one.

However, I'm not enthusiastically crying for that.
There might be a serious contradiction with the basic patterns of the
new ON:
Being based on the issue of "shared" notebooks and automatic synching
of computers, how might the integration of updates of external files
sitting on the other computer work?
Just some thoughts, not thought to their end ...

But for sure I was not too wrong when I replied to Ben with
"IMO the OLE example is well given to exceed the limits."
<g>

Thanks again for the deeper thinking and the food for thought.

Rainald

 

[Grant Robertson]

In my opinion, OLE is a dinosaur of the past. It's complicated to
handle, complicated to implemented and complicated to maintain. I think
the future of integration across programs is with XML and I hope that ON
will never offer OLE.

Well, if Microsoft would offer XML versions of all its software formats
and implement that with functionalit similar to OLE then I would be
happy. However, OLE works well enough for most every other program so I
don't see a need to completely avoid it while waiting for the holy grail
of XML.

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

Well, if Microsoft would offer XML versions of all its software
formats
Office 2007 moved its default file formats to XML.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
Office 2007 Beta 2 Technical Refresh (B2TR):
http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/09/18/43
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
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[Grant Robertson]

Office 2007 moved its default file formats to XML.

Well, we all know that these are Microsoft's non-standard version of
"standard."

The more important point is whether one can paste snippets of a document
or diagram into a different program and have them be displayed exactly
the same as they would have been in their native program. Can one double
click on these snippets and edit them using the tools of the other
program? Did they just replace the data format of OLE with XML or did
they throw the feature out the window altogether?

I think OLE was one of the best of Microsoft's innovations. It had some
bugs but as long as you completely embedded the object in the new
document or kept your file structure intact through good planning then
you didn't have many problems. To throw it away and say, "We have
replaced it with XML" seems disingenuous. If we have lost a major feature
then we have lost a major feature, regardless of any other feature we may
have gained.

P.S. This is all in the general Office software context. I know we have
never had OLE in OneNote. I just don't like the excuse as to why we never
will.

 

[Patrick Schmid [MVP]]

(e-mail address removed) says...

Well, we all know that these are Microsoft's non-standard version of
"standard."

That's just FUD. Those file formats are fully open and standardized by
Ecma. Microsoft is planning to submit them to ISO as well. There is
nothing secret or non-standard about them.

The more important point is whether one can paste snippets of a document
or diagram into a different program and have them be displayed exactly
the same as they would have been in their native program. Can one double
click on these snippets and edit them using the tools of the other
program? Did they just replace the data format of OLE with XML or did
they throw the feature out the window altogether?

You can't do that. What you are describing is still only OLE. What could
be done though (if programmed of course) is that an application inserts
a picture of something but stores the XML creating it behind the
picture. So if you double-click it, you can get it to open in the
application and edit it there.

I think OLE was one of the best of Microsoft's innovations. It had some
bugs but as long as you completely embedded the object in the new
document or kept your file structure intact through good planning then
you didn't have many problems. To throw it away and say, "We have
replaced it with XML" seems disingenuous. If we have lost a major feature
then we have lost a major feature, regardless of any other feature we may
have gained.

There is nothing lost, it's still all there. Just looking forward, I
consider OLE to be a dinosaur type technology that will probably end up
being replaced eventually (several years from now) with something based
on XML. So I don't think it makes any sense to put some "old" technology
into a "new" program like ON.

Patrick Schmid [OneNote MVP]
--------------
http://pschmid.net
***
Office 2007 RTM Issues: http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/13/80
Office 2007 Beta 2 Technical Refresh (B2TR):
http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/09/18/43
***
Customize Office 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/customize
OneNote 2007: http://pschmid.net/office2007/onenote
***
Subscribe to my Office 2007 blog: http://pschmid.net/blog/feed

 

[Rainald Taesler]

Patrick Schmid [MVP] shared these words of wisdom:

... Just looking forward, I
consider OLE to be a dinosaur type technology that will probably
end up being replaced eventually (several years from now) with
something based on XML. So I don't think it makes any sense to put
some "old" technology into a "new" program like ON.

I take the liberty to disagree:
If your expectations will be fulfilled in "several years from now",
what's happening in the meantime??
Just nothing.

And so we are sitting here with a tool wanting to be "modern" but
lacking of basic functionality.

IMO especially for a thing used for collecting every this and that,
the possibility to open an embedded object in the native application
it comes from and modify it with keeping things in sync would really
be a most important and really needed feature.
I think one cannot overrule this by just saying that dinoasurs would
not have deserved a place in our times. At least not as long as no
replacement is available or at least within sight.

Rainald

 

[Grant Robertson]

That's just FUD. Those file formats are fully open and standardized by
Ecma. Microsoft is planning to submit them to ISO as well. There is
nothing secret or non-standard about them.

Yeah, I knew you would come back with that. The fact that they exist, yet
have not been submitted to the standards body, by definition, makes them
non-standard. The fact that they would need to be SUBMITTED TO the
standards body at all rather than COMING FROM a standards body is further
proof that they are non-standard.

I can make up anything I want. Claiming that I "plan to submit it to some
standards body at some unspecified time in the future" does not make it a
standard. The fact that I say anyone can use it does not make it a
standard. Anything else is just spouting Microsoft rhetoric and you know
it.