Entourage 2008 does not retrieve all email!! Very very very big deal!

[Bill Weylock]

Adam -


I just logged back on to apologize to you.

I was out of line with all the colorful slams and slaps. Of course you¹re
only trying to help.

It¹s been a very difficult week for me personally, and I obviously have a
ridiculously short fuse today. Sorry that I took it out on you.

The technical issues do confuse me, but all the personal stuff was
embarrassing and way out of line. I¹ve seen you help others on here, and you
deserve a positive tone at the very least.

Hope this can stop our little encounter, although the decorum of these
things requires me to read whatever you may have posted in response and take
whatever lump you decided to dish up. Wanted to apologize before reading any
more in case it presses my buttons. Again, mea culpa and sorry, man.

I cannot help you if you will not answer my diagnostic questions. I cannot
help you if you insist on using technologies ill-suited to your needs. (I
realize this may not be your choice, but you are defending the practice
rather vociferously and refusing to consider alternatives.)

Best,

Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.3
Office 2008 12.1.1/2007 - Windows XP Pro SP3

 

[Bill Weylock]

I know, Diane. I just posted an apology to Adam, who was also trying to
help.

IMAP requires me to set up folders on our mail server and manipulate the
organizational structure. Our server does not allow that. Any organization I
want to impose on my email must be done on the client side.

Maybe I¹m missing something, but in the world I know a POP3 server is just
that and nothing else. It can be polled, and flags can be set on the server
side, but I can¹t rearrange files.

Do I completely misunderstand something? It¹s as hard for me to understand
why you are recommending something I don¹t think is possible as it must be
for you to understand why I am not thanking you for the advice.

When I try to set up an IMAP account to retrieve mail from our servers, I am
asked do decide about options that simply are not available to me. I don¹t
administer the email function. It¹s done through our ISP and a hosted
virtual server.

I¹m off base? Thanks!

By the way, the suggestion that does make sense to me is trying to use
nothing but Entourage for a day or few to see if the problem stops. I don¹t
see how I can, though.... I need to check email on my pocket PC, and some
applications we all use for collaborating on projects require Windows and
work a lot better if I use Outlook.... I¹ll try though.

Thanks.

Bill we are all doing our best to help you. I¹m still waiting on word and will
get back. Many are on vacation right now and patience is required.

What I don¹t understand is why IMAP is not an option. I can see redoing rules
would be a pain, but what is the real obstacle to IMAP?

Best,

Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.3
Office 2008 12.1.1/2007 - Windows XP Pro SP3

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

Hi Bill,

Maybe I'm missing something, but in the world I know a POP3 server is just
that and nothing else. It can be polled, and flags can be set on the server
side, but I can't rearrange files.

Some POP3 servers also offer IMAP (on the same server). That's beyond
the point here though since apparently you can't use it.

Do I completely misunderstand something? It's as hard for me to understand
why you are recommending something I don't think is possible as it must be
for you to understand why I am not thanking you for the advice.

POP3 servers offer limited possibilities and some, even more limited
than others.
On *most* servers, all e-mails downloaded from one computer will appears
as read if you try to get them from another one for instance.
There are very few flags widely supported and manipulating them is not
very common.
By default, you connect with an e-mail client, it will download all
e-mails and delete them from the server. This prevents you from
accessing them from anywhere else afterwards. To avoid that, you need to
set your e-mail client not to delete e-mails after downloading them.
Unfortunately, it still is not perfect since e-mails downloaded from one
computer but not deleted are usually marked as read. That status won't
sync across computers.

Since mailboxes are not limitless, once in a while, you therefore also
need to access the server and delete the old messages downloaded on all
the computers you need to have them on.

Dealing with all that is not an easy task, I agree.

When I try to set up an IMAP account to retrieve mail from our servers, I am
asked do decide about options that simply are not available to me. I don't
administer the email function. It's done through our ISP and a hosted
virtual server.

I know... these options vary tremendously depending on the server.

I'm off base? Thanks!

Most IMAP servers support a good set of flags and allow the creation of
directories though. Again, I understand that IMAP is not an option for
you though,

By the way, the suggestion that does make sense to me is trying to use
nothing but Entourage for a day or few to see if the problem stops. I don't
see how I can, though.... I need to check email on my pocket PC, and some
applications we all use for collaborating on projects require Windows and
work a lot better if I use Outlook.... I'll try though.

To get back on the original post
I *suspect* that part of your problem is that one of your e-mail client
(Outlook) is set to delete the e-mails from the POP3 server after
downloading them (it's the default setting for POP3 in most e-mail
clients). When Entourage connects, there is nothing left there to
download.
Double-check the advanced settings on both sides.

Corentin

 

[Adam Bailey]

Don¹t you understand that I have no control over the protocol my company
uses for email?

Have you asked or are you just assuming this?

In 2008 (the year, not the version)it is increasingly rare to find an email
server that supports POP3 and also does not support IMAP. Rather than go
'round and 'round, I'd really just like to know if the option exists AT ALL.

Your suggestion is a non-starter and your assertions are ridiculous. Leave
me alone!

I also asked if you could spend a brief period of time - a day - without
using other email clients. As Corentin is also suggesting, I believe the
problem is that they are downloading messages and then telling the server "I
have downloaded this message, keep it on the server as a backup but do not
download it again." That would explain your problem, but I don't know if
that's what's happening unless we can actually verify that it's a software
issue and not some other quirk with the server.

 

[Bill Weylock]

I have asked.

I also own three domains and host a website with a special email package on
GoDaddy.

I¹ve been doing this stuff for a long time, Adam.

Just to be 200% sure I called GoDaddy tech support. None of them have ever
heard of polling a POP3 server as if it¹s an IMAP server.

It makes no sense to them as it made no sense to me.

Apparently some consumer ISPs allow this, but I assume that is because they
offer users a choice of servers and server types. When it¹s a professional
hosting situation giving users that kind of option invites chaos. Whether
real or apparent, IT pros do not like giving users complex options within
the services they provide ­ especially something as basic and core as email.

The problem occurs only on certain messages, and I have not seen any
commonality to the ones that are not grabbed.

I agree with you that it probably does have something to do with Outlook¹s
treatment of ³read² flags, but it¹s far from consistent.

Perhaps should have mentioned that I do have all computer set to ³leave a
copy of the message on the server.² I also have Entourage set to delete
after 20 days or when trashed by this computer. So it¹s not a blanket
setting issue that I can identify.

Please believe me that I have been accessing email on POP servers for many
many years from both notebooks when traveling and from my desktop. When
traveling, I usually leave Entourage running so it is up to date when I
return.

I also send a blind copy of all emails to an ³outcopy² account that is
polled by all clients. That way each computer has a copy of all sent mail as
well as all mail received on the servers.

I have never been aware of a problem before. Missing emails has never been
an issue. Now it¹s a daily issue.

I¹m going to try to stay with Entourage only (and the PocketPC, which I must
also use) tomorrow and see what happens. Would seeing the full headers for
the affected emails tell anyone anything? Can¹t imagine they would but would
be very happy to post.
Thanks.


Best,


- Bill

Have you asked or are you just assuming this?

In 2008 (the year, not the version)it is increasingly rare to find an email
server that supports POP3 and also does not support IMAP. Rather than go
'round and 'round, I'd really just like to know if the option exists AT ALL.


I also asked if you could spend a brief period of time - a day - without
using other email clients. As Corentin is also suggesting, I believe the
problem is that they are downloading messages and then telling the server "I
have downloaded this message, keep it on the server as a backup but do not
download it again." That would explain your problem, but I don't know if
that's what's happening unless we can actually verify that it's a software
issue and not some other quirk with the server.

Best,

Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.3
Office 2008 12.1.1/2007 - Windows XP Pro SP3

 

[Bill Weylock]

Thanks, Corentin!

I answered all of the points in response to Adam¹s email. I thought I owed
him that since I went off on him yesterday.

I do have intentional settings of all the options you mention below. Very
mysterious why one email is affected and many others sent before and after
it are not....


Best,


- Bill

Hi Bill,


Some POP3 servers also offer IMAP (on the same server). That's beyond
the point here though since apparently you can't use it.


POP3 servers offer limited possibilities and some, even more limited
than others.
On *most* servers, all e-mails downloaded from one computer will appears
as read if you try to get them from another one for instance.
There are very few flags widely supported and manipulating them is not
very common.
By default, you connect with an e-mail client, it will download all
e-mails and delete them from the server. This prevents you from
accessing them from anywhere else afterwards. To avoid that, you need to
set your e-mail client not to delete e-mails after downloading them.
Unfortunately, it still is not perfect since e-mails downloaded from one
computer but not deleted are usually marked as read. That status won't
sync across computers.

Since mailboxes are not limitless, once in a while, you therefore also
need to access the server and delete the old messages downloaded on all
the computers you need to have them on.

Dealing with all that is not an easy task, I agree.


I know... these options vary tremendously depending on the server.


Most IMAP servers support a good set of flags and allow the creation of
directories though. Again, I understand that IMAP is not an option for
you though,


To get back on the original post
I *suspect* that part of your problem is that one of your e-mail client
(Outlook) is set to delete the e-mails from the POP3 server after
downloading them (it's the default setting for POP3 in most e-mail
clients). When Entourage connects, there is nothing left there to
download.
Double-check the advanced settings on both sides.

Corentin

Best,

Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.3
Office 2008 12.1.1/2007 - Windows XP Pro SP3

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

Thanks, Corentin!

hi Bill,

I answered all of the points in response to Adam's email. I thought I owed
him that since I went off on him yesterday.

I do have intentional settings of all the options you mention below. Very
mysterious why one email is affected and many others sent before and after
it are not....

I read the other post you sent as a reply to Adam. If all the settings
are correct, then I don't know what could be going wrong. It is possible
that one of the applications in the chain is setting up the flags
improperly, but I don;t know which one and I don't remember ever reading
a similar report in the past :-(

Corentin

 

[Bill Weylock]

I have two emails from the same person yesterday that did not show up.

I did not have Outlook open (to my knowledge) when either arrived.

Would it be interesting or useful for me to post the headers somewhere?

If you all can interpret the logs that result, I will be happy to use the
TCP monitor program as well. I took one look and decided it would take me a
day to figure out how to use and interpret it.

Thanks.


Best,


- Bill

hi Bill,



I read the other post you sent as a reply to Adam. If all the settings
are correct, then I don't know what could be going wrong. It is possible
that one of the applications in the chain is setting up the flags
improperly, but I don;t know which one and I don't remember ever reading
a similar report in the past :-(

Corentin

Best,

Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.3
Office 2008 12.1.1/2007 - Windows XP Pro SP3

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

Would it be interesting or useful for me to post the headers somewhere?

I'm not sure the headers would say much.
The issue seems to be with the flags on the server and they won;t show
up in the headers.

If you all can interpret the logs that result, I will be happy to use the
TCP monitor program as well. I took one look and decided it would take me a
day to figure out how to use and interpret it.

A TCP flow might bring some information indeed.
If you have Interarchy 8 (not 9) it comes with a VERY GOOD packet
sniffer that would probably be a lot easier for you to use.


I am starting to wonder whether the server is not the one messing around
with flags....

Corentin

 

[Diane Ross]

I am starting to wonder whether the server is not the one messing around
with flags....

Did the problem start immediately when you upgraded to Entourage 2008? If
no, then ask if they did any server upgrades around the time your problem
started.

 

[Bill Weylock]

Corentin -

Used to have Interarchy, but I deleted all of my Classic software.
Apparently, it fell victim.

I know I used to have other software dedicated to traceroute and such
things, but haven¹t felt the need for a long time.

I am thinking that the problem may occur because the Fusion VM might just be
using the same IP number as the Mac machine? That could confuse the server
into thinking that the mail had already been read?

Of course that doesn¹t answer the question as to why the problem occurs only
on the Entourage side. If that were the case, also, I would expect the
problems to be massive rather than extremely intermittent.

Wow.

If I go get that line command utility, will someone be able to interpret the
results for me? The instructions are less than illuminating.

Or maybe someone could simply tell me what I¹m looking for??

Thanks!


Best,


- Bill

I'm not sure the headers would say much.
The issue seems to be with the flags on the server and they won;t show
up in the headers.


A TCP flow might bring some information indeed.
If you have Interarchy 8 (not 9) it comes with a VERY GOOD packet
sniffer that would probably be a lot easier for you to use.


I am starting to wonder whether the server is not the one messing around
with flags....

Corentin

Best,

Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.3
Office 2008 12.1.1/2007 - Windows XP Pro SP3

 

[Corentin Cras-Méneur]

Corentin -

Used to have Interarchy, but I deleted all of my Classic software.
Apparently, it fell victim.

Interarchy 8 is not a Classic application (well it was... it first was
Anarchy, then Interarchy and migrated to MacOS X a long while ago). It's
a MacOS X one. Version 9 was released a few months ago and the network
monitoring options didn't make the cut.

[...]

If I go get that line command utility, will someone be able to interpret the
results for me? The instructions are less than illuminating.

The results are usually in a readable format. Once you get the command
running and capturing the packlets from the server you want, 90% of the
work is done.

Corentin

 

[Diane Ross]

Used to have Interarchy,

Besides the OSX version of> Interarchy, try tcpflow and EavesDrop. EavesDrop
might be the easiest to interpret.

<http://www.baurhome.net/software/eavesdrop/index.html>

Or maybe someone could simply tell me what I¹m looking for??

<http://www.entourage.mvps.org/articles/sniff.html>