C
Corentin Cras-Méneur
John McGhie said:But your memory will be better than mine: I tend to leave the non-English
problems to YOU
:-D
Corentin
:-D
Corentin
J
John McGhie
Well, I could tell you some stories of Apple intransigence that would curl
your hair too. They are a little better now, but a few years ago you REALLY
would not have wanted to be an Apple Reseller
The "profit" earned by Microsoft Office on the Mac is much discussed. I can
never get anywhere near the truth on this score, but I don't think it is
anywhere near as high as some people imagine. Nor do I think they are
making a "loss".
Yes, Macs are attracting a five per cent market share in the USA. But
they're nowhere near that in the rest of the world. I am in Australia, and
I would fall over in astonishment if I ever saw one on a corporate desk. My
finger in the breeze guess is that Mac use in the typical "office knowledge
worker" setting is currently about 3 per cent.
Apple laptops are starting to appear in the Frequent Flyer lounges. And of
course the place is awash with iPods. But desktop Macs are not happening,
and the iPhone is going backwards sharply due to poor performance on 3G/4G
HSDPA networks.
All of which means that while Macs are selling, a large percentage of them
do NOT have Office on them. In the PC market, something like 80 or 90 per
cent of computers have Microsoft Office loaded. That's not true on the Mac.
So while PC Office has an installed base of around a thousand million, Mac
Office is nowhere near that. Maybe 3 million systems a year sold
world-wide, of which maybe 1 million have Office (I think that's a
substantial over-estimate). That gives you an installed base of maybe four
million, perhaps approaching eight million if you assume a very long tail.
The other thing you have to ask yourself is "what did it cost them to make
it?" Since Apple went Intel and Unix, Microsoft can no longer re-use their
previous code for the next version: OS 10.5 is nothing like OS 9, and the
processor is nothing like the PPC.
Nor can they pinch the Intel code from the Windows version. Because
something like 80 per cent of the activity in Windows Office is actually
being done by calling bits of Windows.
So to the best of my knowledge, there is actually NO common code between Mac
Office and Windows Office.
So if the products had the same level of features, Mac Office would cost
about the same as PC Office to make, for a dramatically smaller installed
base.
Neither former leader Bill Gates nor current CEO Steve Ballmer is ever going
to admit that they are not make much profit from any of their products. But
while Microsoft Office 2007 is a licence to print money, I do not think the
numbers are anywhere near as good for Mac Office.
But they ARE getting better
Cheers
--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/
Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
your hair too. They are a little better now, but a few years ago you REALLY
would not have wanted to be an Apple Reseller
The "profit" earned by Microsoft Office on the Mac is much discussed. I can
never get anywhere near the truth on this score, but I don't think it is
anywhere near as high as some people imagine. Nor do I think they are
making a "loss".
Yes, Macs are attracting a five per cent market share in the USA. But
they're nowhere near that in the rest of the world. I am in Australia, and
I would fall over in astonishment if I ever saw one on a corporate desk. My
finger in the breeze guess is that Mac use in the typical "office knowledge
worker" setting is currently about 3 per cent.
Apple laptops are starting to appear in the Frequent Flyer lounges. And of
course the place is awash with iPods. But desktop Macs are not happening,
and the iPhone is going backwards sharply due to poor performance on 3G/4G
HSDPA networks.
All of which means that while Macs are selling, a large percentage of them
do NOT have Office on them. In the PC market, something like 80 or 90 per
cent of computers have Microsoft Office loaded. That's not true on the Mac.
So while PC Office has an installed base of around a thousand million, Mac
Office is nowhere near that. Maybe 3 million systems a year sold
world-wide, of which maybe 1 million have Office (I think that's a
substantial over-estimate). That gives you an installed base of maybe four
million, perhaps approaching eight million if you assume a very long tail.
The other thing you have to ask yourself is "what did it cost them to make
it?" Since Apple went Intel and Unix, Microsoft can no longer re-use their
previous code for the next version: OS 10.5 is nothing like OS 9, and the
processor is nothing like the PPC.
Nor can they pinch the Intel code from the Windows version. Because
something like 80 per cent of the activity in Windows Office is actually
being done by calling bits of Windows.
So to the best of my knowledge, there is actually NO common code between Mac
Office and Windows Office.
So if the products had the same level of features, Mac Office would cost
about the same as PC Office to make, for a dramatically smaller installed
base.
Neither former leader Bill Gates nor current CEO Steve Ballmer is ever going
to admit that they are not make much profit from any of their products. But
while Microsoft Office 2007 is a licence to print money, I do not think the
numbers are anywhere near as good for Mac Office.
But they ARE getting better
Cheers
--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/
Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
H
Hellstan
I'll admit everything about Msoft.
Just my 15 years experience with both companies:
1. We (both personally and professionally) used
around 15 Macs in as many years, with 2 minor
glitches only, and one major problem, for which
Apple has been very gracious, acting even outside
of warranty.
2. Apple support has always been very professional
and patient, even with third parties problems.
3. Msoft support has always been less than competent
and very ungracious with bugs obviously Office related
(namely the infamous "Word quit unexpectedly, blaah-blah" or "Close all windows, you computer lacks of memory — with a 16 Gb RAM machine and only 2 apps open).
Example : Msfot support denied to us (at the time, I used Office X professionally) that this was relared to Office, when our IT engineer had 30 machines with Office all quitting all the time).
And this problem "not related to Office" was strangely partly fixed with Office 2004 and a slightly better recovery function that retrieves your doc, instead of losing hours or even sometimes days of work, as it was the case with Office X.
I'm perfectly aware of the time and money involved in developing and maintaining softwares, I'm not that childish and spoiled.
I just observe that many smaller companies than Msoft do maintain perfectly their software and follow up with bugs — mainly because they're reactive and customer aware.
Msoft seems to me more profits than customer oriented.
This is a matter of balance and organization. Reason why I quipped : "bureaucracy, anyone ?"
PS : Reich and Clinton, and today European commissioner Nelly Kroes are right and would do a big service to Msoft, pushing to a non-monopolistic split of the company. Do some research about Edison Trust history in the years 1920/1930. Striking resemblance with Msoft today.
Thank you for the interesting conversation
H.
Just my 15 years experience with both companies:
1. We (both personally and professionally) used
around 15 Macs in as many years, with 2 minor
glitches only, and one major problem, for which
Apple has been very gracious, acting even outside
of warranty.
2. Apple support has always been very professional
and patient, even with third parties problems.
3. Msoft support has always been less than competent
and very ungracious with bugs obviously Office related
(namely the infamous "Word quit unexpectedly, blaah-blah" or "Close all windows, you computer lacks of memory — with a 16 Gb RAM machine and only 2 apps open).
Example : Msfot support denied to us (at the time, I used Office X professionally) that this was relared to Office, when our IT engineer had 30 machines with Office all quitting all the time).
And this problem "not related to Office" was strangely partly fixed with Office 2004 and a slightly better recovery function that retrieves your doc, instead of losing hours or even sometimes days of work, as it was the case with Office X.
I'm perfectly aware of the time and money involved in developing and maintaining softwares, I'm not that childish and spoiled.
I just observe that many smaller companies than Msoft do maintain perfectly their software and follow up with bugs — mainly because they're reactive and customer aware.
Msoft seems to me more profits than customer oriented.
This is a matter of balance and organization. Reason why I quipped : "bureaucracy, anyone ?"
PS : Reich and Clinton, and today European commissioner Nelly Kroes are right and would do a big service to Msoft, pushing to a non-monopolistic split of the company. Do some research about Edison Trust history in the years 1920/1930. Striking resemblance with Msoft today.
Thank you for the interesting conversation
H.
C
Clive Huggan
On 9/9/08 7:44 PM, in article C4EC82B7.19037%[email protected], "John McGhie"
<snip>
John, Apple announced the other day that Mac sales during the previous
quarter were 2.5 million. But that doesn't spoil your excellent argument by
much.
Clive
=====
<snip>
John, Apple announced the other day that Mac sales during the previous
quarter were 2.5 million. But that doesn't spoil your excellent argument by
much.
Clive
=====
J
John McGhie
Hi Clive:
OK, that would make 10 million a year, if those numbers hold up (they bounce
around a bit).
So maybe three million would have Office? Giving us an installed base of
between 12 and 24 million, if sales had been 10 million a year for each of
the preceding eight years (which of course they weren't...).
As opposed to PC Office, which has an installed base of around 980 to 1200
million.
But three million sales a year is a hell of a lot better than Mac Office WAS
doing, and will justify spending a few more bucks on its development.
I guess that is why Microsoft's Macintosh Business Unit has been hiring
developers recently A little bird tells me that they have almost
doubled their development staff.
I share Hellstan's view of Microsoft support. Although, he obviously has
never dealt with the "Paid-for" support that large corporations subscribe
to. That is very good. But seriously expensive. And in the Office
applications, it is very likely to end in "Well, yes, there is an issue --
it crashes whenever you try to use it!"
Mac Office has a long way to go to get itself back up to acceptable
stability. PC Office is not bad these days. Word 2000 was as solid as a
rock (if a little slow). Word 2003 eventually turned into a very solid
product: it's a little fragile, but if you behave yourself, it will run most
of a year without a crash. Word 2007 is still being patched, but it was
faster and more stable than 2003 out of the box. It is now very solid.
I am hoping that Mac Office "Next" will have that level of stability
Cheers
--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/
Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
OK, that would make 10 million a year, if those numbers hold up (they bounce
around a bit).
So maybe three million would have Office? Giving us an installed base of
between 12 and 24 million, if sales had been 10 million a year for each of
the preceding eight years (which of course they weren't...).
As opposed to PC Office, which has an installed base of around 980 to 1200
million.
But three million sales a year is a hell of a lot better than Mac Office WAS
doing, and will justify spending a few more bucks on its development.
I guess that is why Microsoft's Macintosh Business Unit has been hiring
developers recently
A little bird tells me that they have almostdoubled their development staff.
I share Hellstan's view of Microsoft support. Although, he obviously has
never dealt with the "Paid-for" support that large corporations subscribe
to. That is very good. But seriously expensive. And in the Office
applications, it is very likely to end in "Well, yes, there is an issue --
it crashes whenever you try to use it!"
Mac Office has a long way to go to get itself back up to acceptable
stability. PC Office is not bad these days. Word 2000 was as solid as a
rock (if a little slow). Word 2003 eventually turned into a very solid
product: it's a little fragile, but if you behave yourself, it will run most
of a year without a crash. Word 2007 is still being patched, but it was
faster and more stable than 2003 out of the box. It is now very solid.
I am hoping that Mac Office "Next" will have that level of stability
Cheers
--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/
Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
H
Hellstan
John,
Regarding support, I wouldn't mind to have with Msoft the same formula I have with Apple : pay a pluriannual fee to have an efficient support (soft and hard).
The actual price of Msoft support for individuals is way too high (and, judging by my experience, way too low, way too slow — with pending issues remaining… pending for… months !).
Mind you : not as lousy as HP support (even for their professional large format printers). It's also country dependent : in the UK, HP support is rather optimal. In France, Belgium, Luxemburg, it's horrifying.
Clearly, it's a policy : I discussed the subject with one of the biggest Apple-HP supplier here, and he knows that HP decided to cut support.
According to him, Msoft seems to do some efforts, but so far I don't see a big difference.
_________
"Office 2008 for Mac is selling three times faster than the last version, and that's a legacy of the fact that Apple is selling a lot more Macs than it did four years ago," Matt Rosoff, an analyst for Directions on Microsoft, told MacNewsWorld."
Regarding support, I wouldn't mind to have with Msoft the same formula I have with Apple : pay a pluriannual fee to have an efficient support (soft and hard).
The actual price of Msoft support for individuals is way too high (and, judging by my experience, way too low, way too slow — with pending issues remaining… pending for… months !).
Mind you : not as lousy as HP support (even for their professional large format printers). It's also country dependent : in the UK, HP support is rather optimal. In France, Belgium, Luxemburg, it's horrifying.
Clearly, it's a policy : I discussed the subject with one of the biggest Apple-HP supplier here, and he knows that HP decided to cut support.
According to him, Msoft seems to do some efforts, but so far I don't see a big difference.
_________
"Office 2008 for Mac is selling three times faster than the last version, and that's a legacy of the fact that Apple is selling a lot more Macs than it did four years ago," Matt Rosoff, an analyst for Directions on Microsoft, told MacNewsWorld."
P
Phillip Jones
He just thought it was 3/10's as much as it really was. ;-)
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Clive said:
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P
Phillip Jones
It also help that apple is selling Office for MS. That's how I got my
copy of 2008 through the online Apple Store. :-D
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Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
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copy of 2008 through the online Apple Store. :-D
John said:Hi Clive:
OK, that would make 10 million a year, if those numbers hold up (they bounce
around a bit).
So maybe three million would have Office? Giving us an installed base of
between 12 and 24 million, if sales had been 10 million a year for each of
the preceding eight years (which of course they weren't...).
As opposed to PC Office, which has an installed base of around 980 to 1200
million.
But three million sales a year is a hell of a lot better than Mac Office WAS
doing, and will justify spending a few more bucks on its development.
I guess that is why Microsoft's Macintosh Business Unit has been hiring
developers recently
doubled their development staff.
I share Hellstan's view of Microsoft support. Although, he obviously has
never dealt with the "Paid-for" support that large corporations subscribe
to. That is very good. But seriously expensive. And in the Office
applications, it is very likely to end in "Well, yes, there is an issue --
it crashes whenever you try to use it!"
Mac Office has a long way to go to get itself back up to acceptable
stability. PC Office is not bad these days. Word 2000 was as solid as a
rock (if a little slow). Word 2003 eventually turned into a very solid
product: it's a little fragile, but if you behave yourself, it will run most
of a year without a crash. Word 2007 is still being patched, but it was
faster and more stable than 2003 out of the box. It is now very solid.
I am hoping that Mac Office "Next" will have that level of stability
Cheers
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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J
John McGhie
Hi Hellstan:
Ring your local Microsoft office and ask to purchase "Premier Support".
Expect to pay between $8,000 up to Premier Plus contracts which start at
about US$110,000 a year.
Details are here:
http://www.microsoft.com/services/microsoftservices/srv_enterprise.mspx
However, before you pull out the gold Amex, maybe we should set some
"expectations"
"Support" does NOT mean "Changing the product".
If the product is found to be working the way it was designed to work,
Product Support will tell you that. They may or may not be able to help you
find a work-around.
Ultimately, you may find, as I do, that the product is not working the way
you would like. All that Product Support is allowed to say to that is "We
are sorry to hear that." They cannot get the product changed for you.
Cheers
--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/
Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
Ring your local Microsoft office and ask to purchase "Premier Support".
Expect to pay between $8,000 up to Premier Plus contracts which start at
about US$110,000 a year.
Details are here:
http://www.microsoft.com/services/microsoftservices/srv_enterprise.mspx
However, before you pull out the gold Amex, maybe we should set some
"expectations"
"Support" does NOT mean "Changing the product".
If the product is found to be working the way it was designed to work,
Product Support will tell you that. They may or may not be able to help you
find a work-around.
Ultimately, you may find, as I do, that the product is not working the way
you would like. All that Product Support is allowed to say to that is "We
are sorry to hear that." They cannot get the product changed for you.
Cheers
--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/
Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
H
Hellstan
John,
I did not ask to "change the product".
Microsoft did propose to refund it.
Written. By Mail. Signed by one of their
customer service officers.
I was surprised, but accepted.
I was more surprised (or shall I say "less
surprised") when Microsoft :
- did not follow suit
- never responded to my following mails
And all this for 125 €.
Is that customer oriented ?
About support pricing, 110 $ for just a soft support ?
Apple Care is about the same price, for a hard support
much more complete than that.
Instead, I had a major glitch with my Apple G5
(first in 15 years with Apple machines).
Outside warranty, Apple graciously repaired
it and extend the warranty for 6 months.
That's customer oriented ! They won my business
for more 15 years to come.
Sorry, but as you compare car makers when buying a car, you do the same in IT. Problem is M$oft ensured
such a monopoly on software that you don't have real choice anymore.
If BMW were the one and only car maker, that's OK with me : their cars work hell.
My problem is with a monopoly which sells products which are only so-so in quality.
Best,
H.
I did not ask to "change the product".
Microsoft did propose to refund it.
Written. By Mail. Signed by one of their
customer service officers.
I was surprised, but accepted.
I was more surprised (or shall I say "less
surprised") when Microsoft :
- did not follow suit
- never responded to my following mails
And all this for 125 €.
Is that customer oriented ?
About support pricing, 110 $ for just a soft support ?
Apple Care is about the same price, for a hard support
much more complete than that.
Instead, I had a major glitch with my Apple G5
(first in 15 years with Apple machines).
Outside warranty, Apple graciously repaired
it and extend the warranty for 6 months.
That's customer oriented ! They won my business
for more 15 years to come.
Sorry, but as you compare car makers when buying a car, you do the same in IT. Problem is M$oft ensured
such a monopoly on software that you don't have real choice anymore.
If BMW were the one and only car maker, that's OK with me : their cars work hell.
My problem is with a monopoly which sells products which are only so-so in quality.
Best,
H.
H
Hellstan
Dear John,
Thanks for revealing to me how the world works.
Emails from Microsoft are at your disposition.
Their Product representative in France announced
to me a refund, a contact from the relevant service.
These are 3 emails. Then, nothing.
Regarding Oktoberfest, being French, I will let you
mock Germans if it's your intention.
Regarding Apple and M$oft, I just compare on the long run how much time I lost with lousy support of one company (but it's not the only one, I could name HP too), and how much time in gained from excellent Apple support.
I never said Apple were "nice" ; I say they're customer oriented and M$oft is not (in my experience and some other's around me, both personal and professional use).
Has Apple ever had a US president deciding to launch an antitrust lawsuit against their business ?
Has Apple ever had a fine of 487 M€ decided against their way of doing business in Europe ?
The fact that Apple is mono-platform is what makes their system and machines WORK.
This has nothing to do with a monopoly. If you want to show me how the real world works professor, I could explain you some basic economic concepts.
Strange how you seem to distort what I'm saying to make it fit your arguments.
I regret you're not discussing arguments anymore, but making fun of people.
Or do you need some french lessons ?
;-)
Thanks for revealing to me how the world works.
Emails from Microsoft are at your disposition.
Their Product representative in France announced
to me a refund, a contact from the relevant service.
These are 3 emails. Then, nothing.
Regarding Oktoberfest, being French, I will let you
mock Germans if it's your intention.
Regarding Apple and M$oft, I just compare on the long run how much time I lost with lousy support of one company (but it's not the only one, I could name HP too), and how much time in gained from excellent Apple support.
I never said Apple were "nice" ; I say they're customer oriented and M$oft is not (in my experience and some other's around me, both personal and professional use).
Has Apple ever had a US president deciding to launch an antitrust lawsuit against their business ?
Has Apple ever had a fine of 487 M€ decided against their way of doing business in Europe ?
The fact that Apple is mono-platform is what makes their system and machines WORK.
This has nothing to do with a monopoly. If you want to show me how the real world works professor, I could explain you some basic economic concepts.
Strange how you seem to distort what I'm saying to make it fit your arguments.
I regret you're not discussing arguments anymore, but making fun of people.
Or do you need some french lessons ?
;-)
H
Hellstan
"All that Product Support is allowed to say to that is "We are sorry to hear that." They cannot get the product changed for you."
So why did they write exactly the opposite in their mails ? (Which did surprised me in the first place)
So why did they write exactly the opposite in their mails ? (Which did surprised me in the first place)