R
Randy
I hope you have taken your medications before the authorities finds it
out. Mental people like you should be in an institution!
out. Mental people like you should be in an institution!
G
Gemini
Randy, there's no need for personal comments. Let's confine the discussion to
the topic of the thread.
--Gemini
the topic of the thread.
--Gemini
G
Gemini
I have no idea what Abi-Word is. Unless it's along the OpenOffice or Zoho, I
don't want to expend the resources to learn that either.
-- Gemini
don't want to expend the resources to learn that either.
-- Gemini
C
Chris Game
Word in Office 2003: 250 menu items, 31 toolbars, 19 task panes
(PC-Pro article). It had out grown the menu system, something more
usable was necessary.
C
Chris Game
These are people who learned over time to find the menu items they
used (generally each user uses only a small fraction of the total
available). New users found it hard to identify the items they
wanted, even long-time users found it hard to find items they didn't
use very often. Most people know they have spent far too long
scanning menus to find something that might relate to what they want
to do (usually calling up the help assistant to identify they names
of the function items that MSFT use!)
B
Ben M. Schorr - MVP (OneNote)
Harder vs. Easier to use is going to be pretty subjective. The reality
is that 4 of the top 10 feature requests from Word 2003 were for things
that were ALREADY in the product. The menu system had grown unwieldy
and users didn't know how to find things.
A friend at Microsoft tells me he gets compliments all the time on a
"Great new feature!" in Office 2007 and often those features are things
that have been in Office for years. Again, users couldn't find it.
Not everybody loves the Ribbon. You're not going to design a UI that
400 million people universally love. But the intent was to make the
features more discoverable to the end users and it appears to me that it
has accomplished that.
Power users can argue about whether it saves clicks or not if they want
to - they constitute a tiny percentage of the total Office User Base.
Corporate desktop support people are glad they don't have to field as
many calls from users who want to know how to add a Watermark to their
documents.
--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com/onenote.htm
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is that 4 of the top 10 feature requests from Word 2003 were for things
that were ALREADY in the product. The menu system had grown unwieldy
and users didn't know how to find things.
A friend at Microsoft tells me he gets compliments all the time on a
"Great new feature!" in Office 2007 and often those features are things
that have been in Office for years. Again, users couldn't find it.
Not everybody loves the Ribbon. You're not going to design a UI that
400 million people universally love. But the intent was to make the
features more discoverable to the end users and it appears to me that it
has accomplished that.
Power users can argue about whether it saves clicks or not if they want
to - they constitute a tiny percentage of the total Office User Base.
Corporate desktop support people are glad they don't have to field as
many calls from users who want to know how to add a Watermark to their
documents.
--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com/onenote.htm
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Checked by AVG.
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6/13/2008 6:33 AM
G
Gemini
Ben, I agree that Harder v/s Easier is quite subjective. However, facts
contradict several of your assertions. I personally know people who have been
forced to use Office 2007 because their employer bought it. They hate the
Ribbon but don't have a choice. I've also read of several cos. that went back
to Office 2003 because there were too many complaints and the help desk
people were swamped.
As regards power users being a small %age of the users, where's the data?
Posts on various different boards indicate that power/long term users dislike
the Ribbon and despite repeated requests, MS has refused to provide a classic
UI alternative.
"But the intent was to make the features more discoverable to the end users
and it appears to me that it has accomplished that."
I respectfully disagree. There's zero data to back up your statement. As
I've said before, Jensen Harris claimed 85% "acceptance" of the Ribbon.
However, despite repeated requests from several posters on his blog, didn't
respond about how that number was calculated.
Going by the posts I've seen here and elsewhere, the Ribbon is anything but
a success, despite the claims by MS, since they have not provided any data
to back up their claims. MS has also chosen to ignore the requests of long
term users. Thanks to the Ribbon, there are quite a few long term users such
as myself who have started looking into non-MS alternatives. If that was the
goal, then the Ribbon is indeed successful. If not, it's a flat out failure.
Think about it. If the Ribbon was so much better than the menus, there would
have been no call for third party add-ons to replace the Ribbon w/ a classic
menu system.
-- Gemini
contradict several of your assertions. I personally know people who have been
forced to use Office 2007 because their employer bought it. They hate the
Ribbon but don't have a choice. I've also read of several cos. that went back
to Office 2003 because there were too many complaints and the help desk
people were swamped.
As regards power users being a small %age of the users, where's the data?
Posts on various different boards indicate that power/long term users dislike
the Ribbon and despite repeated requests, MS has refused to provide a classic
UI alternative.
"But the intent was to make the features more discoverable to the end users
and it appears to me that it has accomplished that."
I respectfully disagree. There's zero data to back up your statement. As
I've said before, Jensen Harris claimed 85% "acceptance" of the Ribbon.
However, despite repeated requests from several posters on his blog, didn't
respond about how that number was calculated.
Going by the posts I've seen here and elsewhere, the Ribbon is anything but
a success, despite the claims by MS, since they have not provided any data
to back up their claims. MS has also chosen to ignore the requests of long
term users. Thanks to the Ribbon, there are quite a few long term users such
as myself who have started looking into non-MS alternatives. If that was the
goal, then the Ribbon is indeed successful. If not, it's a flat out failure.
Think about it. If the Ribbon was so much better than the menus, there would
have been no call for third party add-ons to replace the Ribbon w/ a classic
menu system.
-- Gemini
B
Ben M. Schorr - MVP (OneNote)
We can trade anecdotes all day, Gemini. 
I personally know people
who like the Ribbon a lot. That doesn't disprove your claims any more
than your personal knowledge of people who don't like it contradicts
mine. I never said everybody liked it - in fact, quite to the contrary
I said quite plainly that you can't please everybody and a certain
percentage of users aren't going to like whatever you do. There were a
percentage of users who didn't like the old system too.
As regards power users being a small percentage of the users it seems
fairly self-evident honestly. Most users are not power users. Are you
seriously claiming that most Office users are power users? I'm out in
the field every day and I can assure you that much fewer than 10% of my
clients would be what I'd classify as "power users." Your following
sentence is also self-evident - power users are the ones who are most
likely to dislike the Ribbon. (They're also the ones most likely to
visit ExcelUsers.com and answer a survey about it).
But at the end of the day the UI is designed to accommodate the
majority; and the majority are not power users. They don't need to make
product features more discoverable for power users anyhow - power users
have already know all the keyboard shortcuts and have often written
their own macros/scripts to automate tasks in the product anyhow. It's
the secretary who is trying to do a mail merge for the first time who
needs help with the UI.
How discoverable features are has very little to do with "acceptance" of
the Ribbon. The proof the features are more discoverable is in the SQM
data which shows an increased use of features that in previous versions
were buried deep in the menus and often not found by novices.
The existence or desire for third-party alternatives again proves
nothing other than a certain segment of the population wants something
else. Heck, by that measure Christianity and the internal combustion
engine are abject failures.
You're focused on the "popularity" of the Ribbon among power users. I
daresay that is not the only measure of whether or not it succeeded.
"Designing Microsoft Office is like ordering pizza for 400 million
people." -Steven Sinofsky-
Best wishes and aloha,
--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
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6/13/2008 7:25 PM
I personally know peoplewho like the Ribbon a lot. That doesn't disprove your claims any more
than your personal knowledge of people who don't like it contradicts
mine. I never said everybody liked it - in fact, quite to the contrary
I said quite plainly that you can't please everybody and a certain
percentage of users aren't going to like whatever you do. There were a
percentage of users who didn't like the old system too.
As regards power users being a small percentage of the users it seems
fairly self-evident honestly. Most users are not power users. Are you
seriously claiming that most Office users are power users? I'm out in
the field every day and I can assure you that much fewer than 10% of my
clients would be what I'd classify as "power users." Your following
sentence is also self-evident - power users are the ones who are most
likely to dislike the Ribbon. (They're also the ones most likely to
visit ExcelUsers.com and answer a survey about it).
But at the end of the day the UI is designed to accommodate the
majority; and the majority are not power users. They don't need to make
product features more discoverable for power users anyhow - power users
have already know all the keyboard shortcuts and have often written
their own macros/scripts to automate tasks in the product anyhow. It's
the secretary who is trying to do a mail merge for the first time who
needs help with the UI.
How discoverable features are has very little to do with "acceptance" of
the Ribbon. The proof the features are more discoverable is in the SQM
data which shows an increased use of features that in previous versions
were buried deep in the menus and often not found by novices.
The existence or desire for third-party alternatives again proves
nothing other than a certain segment of the population wants something
else. Heck, by that measure Christianity and the internal combustion
engine are abject failures.
You're focused on the "popularity" of the Ribbon among power users. I
daresay that is not the only measure of whether or not it succeeded.
"Designing Microsoft Office is like ordering pizza for 400 million
people." -Steven Sinofsky-
Best wishes and aloha,
--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
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Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date:
6/13/2008 7:25 PM
G
Gemini
Ben, it appears that you have missed some of the points in my post.
I do fully understand no GUI pleases all users. I've designed quite a few in
my time. I know that first hand.
I didn't merely refer to power users, I mentioned power/longterm users.
That's a big group. When MS, in all their "wisdom", decided they would NOT
provide a classic UI alternative, they either didn't realize they would
irritate longtime customers or they didn't care. I am quite sure longterm
users make up the majority of users. Are you claiming that newer users make
up the bulk of Office users?
I have NEVER claimed majority of the Excel users are power users. Can you
point out where I have so claimed?
"The proof the features are more discoverable is in the SQM data"
Where's this data? Can you post a link?
"The existence or desire for third-party alternatives again proves nothing
other than a certain segment of the population wants something else. "
On the contrary, it clearly indicates that a significant market exists for
these add-ons, further indicating that there's a significant %age of Office
users prefer the menu system over the Ribbon. A market does not exist in the
absence of demand.
To date, I haven't met anyone personally who actually likes the Ribbon.
OTOH, I've met quite a few who don't. Every time the conversation has turned
to Office 2007, I invariably hear several responses along the lines of "Now
I'm stuck with that #$^& Ribbon, because someone in the ivory tower decided
we need it." I wish I had a buck every time I've heard that.
Have you read that article on Excel 2007? You may want to read it completely.
"But at the end of the day the UI is designed to accommodate the
majority; and the majority are not power users."
I'm willing to bet the majority are long term Office users. See above.
"You're focused on the "popularity" of the Ribbon among power users. "
Incorrect! See above. I'm talking about power AND long term users.
"I daresay that is not the only measure of whether or not it succeeded. "
Exactly by which measure has the Ribbon succeeded? I see tall claims from
MS, but no hard data to back it up.
-- Gemini
I do fully understand no GUI pleases all users. I've designed quite a few in
my time. I know that first hand.
I didn't merely refer to power users, I mentioned power/longterm users.
That's a big group. When MS, in all their "wisdom", decided they would NOT
provide a classic UI alternative, they either didn't realize they would
irritate longtime customers or they didn't care. I am quite sure longterm
users make up the majority of users. Are you claiming that newer users make
up the bulk of Office users?
I have NEVER claimed majority of the Excel users are power users. Can you
point out where I have so claimed?
"The proof the features are more discoverable is in the SQM data"
Where's this data? Can you post a link?
"The existence or desire for third-party alternatives again proves nothing
other than a certain segment of the population wants something else. "
On the contrary, it clearly indicates that a significant market exists for
these add-ons, further indicating that there's a significant %age of Office
users prefer the menu system over the Ribbon. A market does not exist in the
absence of demand.
To date, I haven't met anyone personally who actually likes the Ribbon.
OTOH, I've met quite a few who don't. Every time the conversation has turned
to Office 2007, I invariably hear several responses along the lines of "Now
I'm stuck with that #$^& Ribbon, because someone in the ivory tower decided
we need it." I wish I had a buck every time I've heard that.
Have you read that article on Excel 2007? You may want to read it completely.
"But at the end of the day the UI is designed to accommodate the
majority; and the majority are not power users."
I'm willing to bet the majority are long term Office users. See above.
"You're focused on the "popularity" of the Ribbon among power users. "
Incorrect! See above. I'm talking about power AND long term users.
"I daresay that is not the only measure of whether or not it succeeded. "
Exactly by which measure has the Ribbon succeeded? I see tall claims from
MS, but no hard data to back it up.
-- Gemini
B
Ben M. Schorr - MVP (OneNote)
Fine, power/longterm users. Many of those longterm users who couldn't
find features in the old system appreciate that they are more
discoverable now.
MS in their wisdom, knew that some people wouldn't like the Ribbon. It
was a trade-off they decided was worth it in order to move away from a
system that was becoming increasingly unwieldy.
There is no link to SQM data - it's internal only. I can't give you
specifics of the data because I'm under NDA, but that's o.k. because I'm
sure you wouldn't take my word for it anyhow. Even if you were
showed the data would you believe it? It's just numbers on a page - how
would you know it was from legitimate users? If you saw data that
showed a 50% increase in usage of a particular feature would you accept
the hypothesis that it shows the feature was more discoverable or would
you argue for an alternate theory?
The existence of 3rd party solutions is not nearly as significant as you
would have us believe. Let's look at the Mac - a very solid 3rd party
platform. And yet its U.S. market share (according to MacWorld
Magazine) is just below 5%. Hardly a stampede of angry users heading to
Mac. The existence of 3rd party solutions means that some people want
them. It doesn't mean that the market leader (and MS Office has such
market dominance it is often referred to as a monopoly) is a total
failure.
There are alternatives to virtually everything - from soda pop to God.
Having alternatives to Office is neither new nor especially significant
as an indicator of market satisfaction. Talk to me when one of those
3rd party menu systems ships 200 million copies.
Yes, I have read the article on Excel 2007.
As for "hard data" that the Ribbon succeeded - there is no less hard
data on success than there is on failure.
Some people like the Ribbon, some people hate the Ribbon. I've
travelled the world (literally) talking with folks about Office and I've
met a lot of both.
"We can't all like the same things; otherwise everybody'd be after your
grandma."
-My Grandfather-
--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
find features in the old system appreciate that they are more
discoverable now.
MS in their wisdom, knew that some people wouldn't like the Ribbon. It
was a trade-off they decided was worth it in order to move away from a
system that was becoming increasingly unwieldy.
There is no link to SQM data - it's internal only. I can't give you
specifics of the data because I'm under NDA, but that's o.k. because I'm
sure you wouldn't take my word for it anyhow.
Even if you wereshowed the data would you believe it? It's just numbers on a page - how
would you know it was from legitimate users? If you saw data that
showed a 50% increase in usage of a particular feature would you accept
the hypothesis that it shows the feature was more discoverable or would
you argue for an alternate theory?
The existence of 3rd party solutions is not nearly as significant as you
would have us believe. Let's look at the Mac - a very solid 3rd party
platform. And yet its U.S. market share (according to MacWorld
Magazine) is just below 5%. Hardly a stampede of angry users heading to
Mac. The existence of 3rd party solutions means that some people want
them. It doesn't mean that the market leader (and MS Office has such
market dominance it is often referred to as a monopoly) is a total
failure.
There are alternatives to virtually everything - from soda pop to God.
Having alternatives to Office is neither new nor especially significant
as an indicator of market satisfaction. Talk to me when one of those
3rd party menu systems ships 200 million copies.
Yes, I have read the article on Excel 2007.
As for "hard data" that the Ribbon succeeded - there is no less hard
data on success than there is on failure.
Some people like the Ribbon, some people hate the Ribbon. I've
travelled the world (literally) talking with folks about Office and I've
met a lot of both.
"We can't all like the same things; otherwise everybody'd be after your
grandma."
-My Grandfather-
--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
E
Earle Horton
Do I get a vote? I've been using Microsoft products for over twenty years
and this Ribbon thing bites it. Still, I'm using Office 2007 because I
could buy the German Language Pack for $24.95. That is a super deal
compared with past offerings. I had a heck of a time getting just Proofing
Tools for 2000 and later 2003. I am annoyed by the random changes to the
user interface, but core functionality is what I am after, after all.
Cheers,
Earle
and this Ribbon thing bites it. Still, I'm using Office 2007 because I
could buy the German Language Pack for $24.95. That is a super deal
compared with past offerings. I had a heck of a time getting just Proofing
Tools for 2000 and later 2003. I am annoyed by the random changes to the
user interface, but core functionality is what I am after, after all.
Cheers,
Earle
C
Chris Game
I wonder why people who dislike the ribbon didn't stick with Office
97.2003/XP?
I really doubt the claim that power users don't like the ribbon too,
in most offices power users spend a lot of time explaining how to do
things to less experienced staff. The ribbon takes this problem
away, big benefit to power users!
B
Ben M. Schorr - MVP (OneNote)
Sure everybody gets a vote. At the end of the day it's exactly what
I said it was though - some people like it, some people hate it, some
people are neutral on it.
--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
At the end of the day it's exactly whatI said it was though - some people like it, some people hate it, some
people are neutral on it.
--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
G
Gemini
I suppose it's possible that some longterm users found the Ribbon to be of
some use. Yet, it is an undeniable fact, based on several posts I've seen
here and elsewhere, that the Ribbon was not a welcome addition for a majority
of longterm users.
Ben, with all due respect, it wasn't as much of a trade off as arrogance. MS
could have very well provided the classic UI as an alternative to the Ribbon.
They CHOSE not to do so. Despite many calls from users to provide the classic
UI as an alternative, MS has refused to do so.
As regards SQM data, you're right in that unless the way it was collected
(testing methodology) was explained, it has no meaning. From the description
Jensen Harris provided on his blog, it does not appear that longterm/power
users were well represented in the data MS used as a basis to design the
Ribbon. Jensen received several queries about which users were well
represented in that data as well as the basis for his claim of 85%
"acceptance". No response at all from Jensen to those questions. The silence
speaks volumes.
The fact remains MS chose to annoy a large portion of their user base and
continues to ignore calls to provide an alternative to the Ribbon despite
demand. I don't see the business wisdom/logic in it at all.
Thankfully, as consumers, we get to make a choice. I do have Office 2007 to
thank for the stimulus to start looking into non-MS alternatives, since per
Bill Gates, the Ribbon (more accurately, the "Fluent" interface), will be
more pervasive with future version of Windows.
-- Gemini
some use. Yet, it is an undeniable fact, based on several posts I've seen
here and elsewhere, that the Ribbon was not a welcome addition for a majority
of longterm users.
Ben, with all due respect, it wasn't as much of a trade off as arrogance. MS
could have very well provided the classic UI as an alternative to the Ribbon.
They CHOSE not to do so. Despite many calls from users to provide the classic
UI as an alternative, MS has refused to do so.
As regards SQM data, you're right in that unless the way it was collected
(testing methodology) was explained, it has no meaning. From the description
Jensen Harris provided on his blog, it does not appear that longterm/power
users were well represented in the data MS used as a basis to design the
Ribbon. Jensen received several queries about which users were well
represented in that data as well as the basis for his claim of 85%
"acceptance". No response at all from Jensen to those questions. The silence
speaks volumes.
The fact remains MS chose to annoy a large portion of their user base and
continues to ignore calls to provide an alternative to the Ribbon despite
demand. I don't see the business wisdom/logic in it at all.
Thankfully, as consumers, we get to make a choice. I do have Office 2007 to
thank for the stimulus to start looking into non-MS alternatives, since per
Bill Gates, the Ribbon (more accurately, the "Fluent" interface), will be
more pervasive with future version of Windows.
-- Gemini
G
Gemini
Actually Chris, quite a few longterm/power users (including yours truly) did
go back to Office 2003. Unless I see a viable alternative to that ridiculous
Ribbon thing, I'm far more likely to move to non-MS products such as
OpenOffice and/or Zoho.
As a matter of fact, the link Harlan Grove posted, points to an article
which clearly indicates a large bunch of Office users are still sticking with
Office 2003, since moving to Office 2007 offers little or no value.
As regards power users not liking the Ribbon, there are tons of posts here
as well as elsewhere that clearly indicate that longterm/power users, by and
large, do not like the Ribbon. That article on ExcelUser also indicates the
same.
I have seen many posts where the term "productivity killer" was used to
describe the Ribbon by longterm/power users. I would love to know how many
users would have even bothered with the Ribbon had there been the menu system
alternative AND how many of the current Ribbon users are "captive" users
(i.e. they have to use the thing at work). I seriously doubt that the
resulting numbers would be pro-Ribbon.
-- Gemini
go back to Office 2003. Unless I see a viable alternative to that ridiculous
Ribbon thing, I'm far more likely to move to non-MS products such as
OpenOffice and/or Zoho.
As a matter of fact, the link Harlan Grove posted, points to an article
which clearly indicates a large bunch of Office users are still sticking with
Office 2003, since moving to Office 2007 offers little or no value.
As regards power users not liking the Ribbon, there are tons of posts here
as well as elsewhere that clearly indicate that longterm/power users, by and
large, do not like the Ribbon. That article on ExcelUser also indicates the
same.
I have seen many posts where the term "productivity killer" was used to
describe the Ribbon by longterm/power users. I would love to know how many
users would have even bothered with the Ribbon had there been the menu system
alternative AND how many of the current Ribbon users are "captive" users
(i.e. they have to use the thing at work). I seriously doubt that the
resulting numbers would be pro-Ribbon.
-- Gemini
G
Gemini
Ben, here's an interesting link.
http://vista.blorge.com/2007/04/12/classic-style-menus-for-microsoft-office-2007/#comments
The above bolsters the points I was attempting to make.
-- Gemini
http://vista.blorge.com/2007/04/12/classic-style-menus-for-microsoft-office-2007/#comments
The above bolsters the points I was attempting to make.
-- Gemini
B
Ben M. Schorr - MVP (OneNote)
Gemini, it can't be an "undeniable" fact about how the "majority" feels
when it's based entirely upon anecdotal evidence of "several posts".
All that is an undeniable fact from that evidence is that some
power/longterm users don't like the Ribbon which is something I think we
all know to be true. You're extrapolating what you want the limited
data set to say.
You can describe the UI decisions as arrogance if you want to - I was
actually in contact with the product teams, and even occasionally in the
building, during the development of the UI and the product and that's
not my opinion of how the decisions were made. I've met Jensen Harris on
many occasions, and spoken with him at some length about the UI. But I
don't know the source (or even definition) of the "85% acceptance"
statement that you keep calling out and don't have any interest in
trying to defend it. Jensen is more than capable of defending himself if
he thinks he wants or needs to.
In any event it seems to me that we need to agree to disagree. It's
clear to me that you are pretty heavily invested in hating the Ribbon
and that's fine. I don't think anything I have to say will change your
mind about that.
And that's o.k.
I'm glad you've started looking into other alternatives; there are some
good ones out there. I've had OpenOffice installed on my machines for a
long time - I'm even writing a book about it. Corel's WordPerfect Suite
is worth looking at too (though I need to find my X3 install disk to
reinstall it). I've used Google's online stuff. It's good to see what
else is out there.
--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
when it's based entirely upon anecdotal evidence of "several posts".
All that is an undeniable fact from that evidence is that some
power/longterm users don't like the Ribbon which is something I think we
all know to be true. You're extrapolating what you want the limited
data set to say.
You can describe the UI decisions as arrogance if you want to - I was
actually in contact with the product teams, and even occasionally in the
building, during the development of the UI and the product and that's
not my opinion of how the decisions were made. I've met Jensen Harris on
many occasions, and spoken with him at some length about the UI. But I
don't know the source (or even definition) of the "85% acceptance"
statement that you keep calling out and don't have any interest in
trying to defend it. Jensen is more than capable of defending himself if
he thinks he wants or needs to.
In any event it seems to me that we need to agree to disagree. It's
clear to me that you are pretty heavily invested in hating the Ribbon
and that's fine. I don't think anything I have to say will change your
mind about that.
And that's o.k.
I'm glad you've started looking into other alternatives; there are some
good ones out there. I've had OpenOffice installed on my machines for a
long time - I'm even writing a book about it. Corel's WordPerfect Suite
is worth looking at too (though I need to find my X3 install disk to
reinstall it). I've used Google's online stuff. It's good to see what
else is out there.
--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
B
Ben M. Schorr - MVP (OneNote)
Gemini,
It's just another handful of comments (about 10 to be specific) from
users who don't like the Ribbon. If you're planning to send me links to
every page where a tiny fraction of anonymous Office users are
complaining about the Ribbon I think you're going to waste a lot of time
proving what has already been stipulated: Some Office users don't like
the Ribbon.
--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
It's just another handful of comments (about 10 to be specific) from
users who don't like the Ribbon. If you're planning to send me links to
every page where a tiny fraction of anonymous Office users are
complaining about the Ribbon I think you're going to waste a lot of time
proving what has already been stipulated: Some Office users don't like
the Ribbon.
--
-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
http://www.officeforlawyers.com
E
Earle Horton
I'm taking continuing education classes at the local college. Since last
year when Office 2007 came out all the computers on campus have it, and
Student Edition is available at the bookstore for $25, installable on three
computers. There's a slew of users for you who will at least be used to the
darn thing by the time they graduate. ;^)
Earle
year when Office 2007 came out all the computers on campus have it, and
Student Edition is available at the bookstore for $25, installable on three
computers. There's a slew of users for you who will at least be used to the
darn thing by the time they graduate. ;^)
Earle
H
Harlan Grove
Chris Game said:
Oh, the poor Office 2008 users then. Stuck without the benefits of a
UI encumbered with Microsoft licensing restrictions. How they must
suffer!
I'll stick with Excel with the half dozen add-ins I load by default.
9 top-level menu entries
Under File
17 next-level menu entries
3 of which access submenus
8 submenu entries
Under Edit
21 next-level menu entries
2 of which access submenus
11 submenu entries
Under View
11 next-level menu entries
1 of which, View > Toolbars, accesses the only submenus which
contains
1+ number of loaded toolbars under this submenu
Under Insert
14 next-level menu entries
2 of which access submenus
11 submenu entries
Under Format
7 next-level menu entries
3 of which access submenus
14 submenu entries
Under Tools
22 next-level menu entries (of which 4 are provided by add-ins)
7 of which access submenus (1 of these from add-ins)
25 submenu entries (though there's only 1 under Tools > Speach; 3 from
add-ins)
Under Data
14 next-level menu entries
5 of which access submenus
33 submenu entries
Under Windows
7 next-level menu entries
Under Help
8 next-level menu entries
201 menu commands, not including the separate submenu entries for each
loaded toolbar. As for toolbars, I've got 21 with 2 provided by add-
ins. As for task pains (misspelling intentional), I never use 'em, and
I've made the necessary registry changes to ensure they NEVER appear
automatically, ONLY when I press [Ctrl]+[F1].
As for number of menu entries IN SPREADSHEETS, Lotus 123 of the mid
1980s had about 100 menu commands just under Print. 200-odd menu
commands in total is no big deal. And when all the menu commands under
Windows and Help are completely generic, nearly all the commands under
File, 3/4 of the commands under Edit and View, and half the commands
under Insert are also generic, you realize there are maybe 120-150
specifically Excel menu commands. Not a big deal.
As for toolbars, most of them are task-specific (Standard is the big
exception), and many of them are context specific - they pop-up only
in specific contexts. Are they necessary? No. All the commands
provided by the standard toolbars can be found in the standard menu or
dialogs accessed from standard menu commands. They're a convenience,
and since they're FAR MORE FLEXIBLE than the !@#$%&* ribbon, they're
FAR MORE CONVENIENT.
One person's improved usability seems to be another's dog's lunch of a
UI mistake.