Identifying PUB websites

[John G.]

David,
Yes I respect your choice.
Sometimes alternatives need to be aired so that the choice you make is based
on fact and not just on blind belief.
I did not suggest anyone change nor suggest their choice was wrong, just
that there may be a better way.

An earlier mention of tools for wood work is a good example.
A Bronze age man would think an iron tool was great but if he was shown an
electric tool he may think again.

P.S. Somtimes if I think I can help I do and I try generally to avoid
slanging matches as go on sometimes.

John G.

 

[DavidF]

Thank you for your comments. I hope it helps...

This is a Publisher webdesign group and it would be great if people would
respect the choice we have made to use Publisher for this purpose.

DavidF

 

[DavidF]

John G.,

Serif certainly sounds like a viable alternative to Publisher, and I can
certainly understand how you might feel that MSFT is not responsive enough.
So if you feel that the Serif software is superior, then by all means make
the switch. And if others prefer other software, then go for it and go to
those forums/newsgroups and offer your support there.

However, Publisher webdesign is the subject of this newsgroup, and we just
ask that you and others honor and respect the choices of the people who have
chosen to use Publisher have come here for answers about how best to use the
program.

Freedom of choice...it is a good thing. We certainly respect your choice to
use other software...please respect our choice.

DavidF

 

[Rob Giordano [MS MVP]]

I use Publisher almost every day, and have 3 different versions on my
machine.

The point I am trying to make is it's far less of a hassle using a program
designed to create webs to create webs with than to use Publisher and mess
with work-arounds. Why some people here don't even try an alternate program
is beyond me.

And yes...I've experimented with creating webs with Publisher...mostly to
solve problems for people here, but I wouldn't use it for a live website due
to it's limitations.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression

 

[Rob Giordano [MS MVP]]

"....users can make

their web pages comply with what is now law in many countries, in the form
of disability discrimination requirements?"

It can't and should not be used to design a website that requires
accessibility validation

 

[Rob Giordano [MS MVP]]

I dunno why this issue is being taken so personally.


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression

 

[Eric James]

Actually David I think you might find that people actually simply want to
create some web pages, and whether or not they use Publisher is up to them.
They sometimes come here to get help, obviously, and sometimes seem to get
given information which verges on being propaganda, is simply bad advice or
even just plain wrong.
You yourself have written several times that if the best advice might be to
not use Publisher, you would say so - and yet you never seem to do so, and
usually argue the precise opposite. I would suggest that if people really
want a specific view on using and solving problems in Publisher then there
are umpteen books on the subject and Microsoft web pages etc. which would be
a more appropriate, and often more correct, source. In an open public forum
such as this they might expect to find a more balanced world view which puts
things properly in context, even if it might be a little opinionated
sometimes.
I would further suggest to you that as the material you put across is
undoubtedly useful and very helpful to those requiring it, it would save a
lot of time and effort if, as others have done, you were to spend a few
minutes compiling your knowledge into a FAQ list and publish it on a web
site or blog somewhere. Then you and others could simply answer the most
regular questions by referring people to it, and they might even find it
directly via a Google search without coming here at all.

 

[DavidF]

People are not coming here to be told to not use Publisher or to use
alternatives...they come here for answers about how to get Publisher to
work. I am just asking that you respect that choice and quit suggesting
people need to move to an alternative or that the sky is going to fall if
they use Publisher. Whether you want to use Publisher is beside the
point...this is a Publisher web design group...if you don't want help people
use Publisher then don't. You are a Microsoft MVP...please act like one and
respect our choice to use Publisher.

DavidF

 

[DavidF]

It isn't important that you understand. Just please be a bit more
professional and back off and respect our choice to use Publisher. Thank
you.

DavidF

 

[DavidF]

John,

I understand, don't mind and actually appreciate the way you make your input
or suggestions. You are not disruptive...

To be clear it is Eric that is the primary problem in this group and I
should not have generalized. He is ruining this community experience for all
of us. Before he came to the group we enjoyed a synergetic and positive,
learning experience and environment here and people by and large were
respectful of each other and welcomed different views. I just hope that
eventually he will move on and we can get back to that. I must admit, I just
don't understand why people act as trolls and behave as he does and why they
enjoy disrupting these groups and attacking people...

DavidF

 

[MAURH]

It's taken personally Rob, because people like Eric James continue to make a
personal issue of it with his relentless attacks on DavidF... and anyone
else who tries to help. His comments are pointless, unacceptable, damaging
to this newsgroup and very unprofessional. And quite frankly as a MSFT Most
Valued Professional (MVP), you above all people should appreciate that if
people wish to continue to use Publisher for their web building, even with
it's limitations, and then ask for help if they need it, they should be
allowed to do so without being subject to constantly being told that it
would have been better if they had used a different product. And of course,
you and Eric are a bit late anyway. By the time someone asks for help on
this newsgroup, they have already spent many, many hours on their work and
my guess is that they are not about to throw it all away just to start again
with another product.

Analogies seem to be popular here so the one I would use is: I chose the car
I drive because it gives me all that I require for the work that I need it
to do. I don't need to know how the mechanics of it, or the air
conditioning, or the electrical system work and I care even less about how
the coding in the computer management system works...I just need it to do a
job and if it has a problem, I look to others to help put it right. What I
don't need or desire, is my neighbour constantly telling me that if I'd
bought a Ford or a Nissan, I wouldn't have the problems and it would have
been a better vehicle.

I have used Publisher to create my website for several years now. It is in
constant use for one of the two businesses which I run and a great deal of
my business is done through it or because of it. It gets several hundred
views a week and has been on page two of Google for some time. The help and
advice that I have had from DavidF and others in this newsgroup, has been
invaluable in getting it to that point and I, like many others, appreciate
that help.
And just to answer one of your earlier comments, I have other products,
including Serif's Page Plus and WebPlus 10, installed on my computer, but
prefer Publisher!

So, Rob....and Eric....Come on guys, time to call it a day? You've made your
point, let's agree to disagree and let those of us who choose to use
publisher for web sites, get on with it and those who kindly choose to help
in this newsgroup, do so without being unnecessarily attacked.

Maureen

 

[Rob Giordano [MS MVP]]

Wow, that's uncalled for.



--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression

 

[Rob Giordano [MS MVP]]

I've never personally attacked anyone here. I am trying to curtail wasted
effort because as you guys grow and get deeper and deeper into your web
designs it will be harder and harder to redesign when you finally realize
the limitations of Publisher (as MS points out in it's own product
descriptions)...but whatever do as you like.

My ultimate rhetorical question to you guys is...what will you do if (and
probably more like; When) Publisher web design feature is no longer
supported?



--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression

 

[Rob Giordano [MS MVP]]

You can use anything you like to design webs, you can even use Excel if you
want...and I will still tell you it's a bad idea. If I can help you try to
figure something out to make it work I will and I will still tell you it's a
bad idea to use Excel or Publisher or Word to design a website.

If you had a flat tire on the side of the road and were stuck without a lug
wrench but had a pair of vise-grips, I would help you change the flat with
the grips...and still tell you to get a lug wrench for your car asap.



--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rob Giordano
Microsoft MVP Expression

 

[MAURH]

Rob,

I know you have never personally attacked anyone here...and you know that I
wasn't suggesting that you do. And what you say is true, some people using
this product will eventually discover the limitations of the programme. But
to respond to that comment and to answer your rhetorical question, when we
do discover it's limitations and if, or indeed when, the Publisher web
design feature is no longer supported, we will do what we do about other
things in life that we outgrow, we will move on to something else that suits
our purpose. If that involves a new learning curve...so be it. In the
meantime whilst we choose to continue with the programme available and we
need help, we look to the more experienced in this newsgroup to answer our
questions in a helpful manner.

Whilst I appreciate and respect the fact that you are not the biggest fan of
Publisher for web building, you have obviously had experience in using
Publisher in other ways and can pass that on in other newsgroups. Eric
James, on the other hand, has an obvious mission in this newsgroup....to
dissuade people from using Publisher for web building, to broadcast his
'experience' in the IT business and to discredit the respected people, in
particular DavidF, who constantly give a great deal of their time, freely,
to help us. I feel it is a great shame that other people, and especially an
MVP such as yourself, have been dragged into his particular agendas.

Maureen

 

[DavidF]

This is not an Excel newsgroup, nor Word nor a group explaining how to
change a tire. It is a newsgroup/forum dedicated to using Publisher to build
websites. Constantly throwing up such ludicrous analogies, comparisons and
making empty, irrelevant red herring arguments against using Publisher is
certainly not helpful and is disrespectful, unprofessional and inappropriate
for a Microsoft MVP who should observe a higher standard. If you can't
refrain from such behavior and can't support and respect our choice to use
Publisher to build webs then I would ask that you quit posting in this
newsgroup.

DavidF

 

[Eric James]

This is getting silly.
This is an open, public newsgroup intended to be used for the discussion of
matters related to creating web pages with Microsoft Publisher. It is not up
to you, David, or anyone else to dictate what can or cannot be said here.
There is no reason why such discussion cannot include the merits of using
Publisher for that purpose, or comparing it with other similar tools, if
that is what interests people. Neither is there any reason why people should
not attempt to pass on their expertise or experience in wider matters
concerned with building web sites which impact Publisher users if it is
felt, and it is, that that would benefit Publisher users at large. It is up
to the users themselves whether or not they believe it or make use of it,
and I am sure that in the main they are quite able to draw their own
conclusions, right or wrong.
That however does not seem to be the root cause of the petulant abuse and
name-calling etc. which is coming mostly from a certain quarter, and is
obviously upsetting some readers. This seems to be stoked by the entirely
reasonable posting of messages which attempt to correct the contradictions,
errors, misunderstandings and falsehoods which are sometimes posted,
possibly with good intent, and the inability of certain people to take this
as anything but a personal insult. I can only suggest that those concerned
should rise above that, and try to learn something from the experience for
the benefit of all.
This now seems to have descended to such a level that even a recognised MVP
is now being abused merely because his opinions do not happen to be aligned
with one or two other regular posters, and it would seem that even posting a
solution to a problem which David has deemed insoluble or is simply beyond
his comprehension is liable to attract abuse. In whose interest is this?
I for one will try not to sink to this level in future, and would apologise
if anyone thinks I have in the past. If however, I happen to have the time
and will to respond when I see misinformation, bad or deficient advice being
given, I may well continue to chip in, and might expect disagreement
occasionally, but I usually would not take on a certain stance without firm
foundations. Nothing personal. Lets all try to raise standards.

 

[Don Schmidt]

Guys,

To some of us, websites are grapefruit; some of us use salt to sweeten it
and some of us use sugar. It's still grapefruit.