Layers and user controlled font settings.

Cheese_whiz · Mar 31, 2005

Back when I use to produce some pages I basically stayed away from layers, at
least I didn't rely on them. My impression is that layers are far better
supported with the current browsers, though, and I'd really like to use them.

One problem I'm having, though. Someone looked at a page I produced and
said a link had "disappeared". I knew that it hadn't been removed, and the
more I thought about it the more I thought about the possibility that a nav
bar I had on a layer had been effected by the font settings of my viewer's
browser settings and the layer had basically expanded and covered up the link.

Does that sound possible? Is there a way to prevent user settings from
changing the font sizes (I'm pretty sure the answer is no here)? Is there a
way to handle layers so I don't have that problem? (Does text on a layer
present a different challenge than a graphic, or would both layers be subject
to user settings changing their size and messing up the layout?).

Thanks, in advance for any help. Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size changes. But I can't
have them if they introduce too many issues.

Murray · Mar 31, 2005

Back when I use to produce some pages I basically stayed away from layers,

at
least I didn't rely on them. My impression is that layers are far better
supported with the current browsers, though, and I'd really like to use
them.

Make sure you take some time to understand HOW to use them first. There are
MANY potholes in that road that you can avoid if you know where they are.
Make sure you also bone up on your HTML and CSS since a good understanding
of these two areas is a core element of the use of layers.

Does that sound possible?

Yes - it's quite possible, and it's one reason why I mention boning up on
HTML and CSS above. Using layers as a layout tool (ironically enough) is a
very bad idea for this very reason. Expanding text can expand the layer to
unanticipated values thereby masking or overlapping other page content.

Is there a
way to handle layers so I don't have that problem?

No. But there are many ways to use positioned elements without being so
vulnerable to such problems. This does require a good understanding of HTML
and CSS, however.

Does text on a layer
present a different challenge than a graphic, or would both layers be
subject
to user settings changing their size and messing up the layout?

I assume you mean "text in a layer" and yes, it does present a different
challenge, since images don't expand like text does.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size changes.

How are you doing that?

Anyhow - layers are just one way of positioning things on the page with CSS.

This may help you understand positioning a bit -

There are 4 different types of positioning:
Absolute
Relative
Fixed
Static

Here is a brief explanation of each kind....

Position:absolute
-----------------------
This does several things -
1. It 'removes' the element from the flow of the code on the page so that
it can no longer influence the size or position of any other page element
(except for those contained within it, of course).

2. The absolutely positioned element takes its position from the position of
its closest PARENT *positioned*
element - in the absence of any explicitly positioned parent, this will
default to the <body> tag, which is always positioned at 0,0 in the browser
viewport.

This means that it doesn't matter where in the HTML code the layer's code
appears (between <body> and </body>), its location on the screen will not
change. Furthermore, the
space in which this element would have appeared were it not positioned is
not
preserved on the screen. In other words, absolutely positioned elements
don't take up any space on the page. In fact, they FLOAT over the page.

Position:relative
----------------------
In contrast to absolute positioning, a relatively positioned page element is
*not* removed from the flow of the
code on the page, so it will use the spot where it would have appeared
based
on its position in the code as its zero point reference. If you then
supply top, right, bottom, or left positions to the style for this element,
those
values will be used as offsets from its zero point.

This means that it DOES matter where in the code the relatively positioned
element appears, as it will be positioned in that location (factoring in
the offsets) on the screen. Furthermore, the space where this element
would
have appeared is preserved in the display, and can therefore affect the
placement of succeeding elements. This means that the taller a relatively
positioned element is, the more space it forces on the page.

Position:static
-------------------
As with relative position, static positions also "go with the flow". An
element with a static position cannot have values for offsets (top, right,
left, bottom) or if it has them, they will be ignored. Unless explicitly
positioned, all div elements default to static positioning.

Position:fixed
------------------
A page element with this style will not scroll as the page content scrolls.
Support for this in elements other than page backgrounds is quirky

There are two other things you need to know:

1. ANY page element can be positioned - paragraphs, tables, images, lists,
etc.
2. The <div> tag is a BLOCK level tag. This means that if it is not
positioned or explicitly styled otherwise, a) it will always begin on a new
line on the screen, and b) it will always force content to a new line below
it, and c) it will always take up the entire width of its container (i.e.,
width:100%).

You can see a good example of the essential difference between absolute and
relative positioning here -

http://www.great-web-sights.com/g_layersdemo.asp

Also, here is a good reference page -

http://www.great-web-sights.com/g_layerlaws.asp

Cheese_whiz · Mar 31, 2005

Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need to spend a
little more time understanding the different positioning possibilities.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what I thought I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on (for someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I explained in the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's browser (also IE but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just downloaded and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content on layers seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but all the layers are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables appear to be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code than for me to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right for IE but it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code at that url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do that anyway).

Thanks again.

Murray · Apr 1, 2005

I'll be back later today with a response on this....

Murray · Apr 1, 2005

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font family in your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

Cheese_whiz · Apr 1, 2005

Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the wordart is gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working on figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this weekend I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

Murray said:
Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font family in your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

Murray · Apr 1, 2005

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

Cheese_whiz said:
Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

Murray said:

probably some itteration of 5).

Click to expand...

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need to spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what I thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on (for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I explained in the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's browser (also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content on layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables appear to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code than for me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Cheese_whiz · Apr 1, 2005

I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting to that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems to indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by end user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I did it through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and corsica) needed to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not even though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand what you
were saying?

Thanks

Murray said:
You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

Cheese_whiz said:

Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

Murray said:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need to spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what I thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on (for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I explained in the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's browser (also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content on layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables appear to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code than for me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Murray · Apr 1, 2005

Does that sound right?

Yes.

just a shortcoming of FP

Yes.

FP tends to write code that IE (and sometimes ONLY IE) understands. That's
why I often rant about becoming familiar with HTML and CSS.

--
Murray
============

Cheese_whiz said:
I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting to that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems to
indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by end user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I did it
through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and corsica) needed
to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not even
though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand what you
were saying?

Thanks

Murray said:

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

Cheese_whiz said:

Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with
these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

message
Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need to
spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what I
thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on (for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I explained in
the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's browser
(also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just
downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content on
layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables appear
to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code than for
me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Cheese_whiz · Apr 1, 2005

Ok, I think I've fixed the font issue, and I removed the word art and just
substituted text until I either make a graphic or do something else to add a
little some more than just regular text.

I also tried to neaten up the html a little to make it more readable, though
I won't say I did a completely thorough job, it does look a little better I
think.

Now what? What about those layers moving? Seems to me I remember the same
problem back when I first started with web design and that's why maybe I
avoided them, but I thought at least the newer versions of at least IE and
Netscape would work without much trouble...

Murray said:
Does that sound right?
Yes.

just a shortcoming of FP

Click to expand...

Yes.

FP tends to write code that IE (and sometimes ONLY IE) understands. That's
why I often rant about becoming familiar with HTML and CSS.

--
Murray
============

Cheese_whiz said:

I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting to that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems to
indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by end user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I did it
through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and corsica) needed
to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not even
though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand what you
were saying?

Thanks

Murray said:

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with
these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

message
Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need to
spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what I
thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on (for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I explained in
the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's browser
(also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just
downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content on
layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables appear
to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code than for
me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Cheese_whiz · Apr 3, 2005

Well, after my last post I messed around some more with the code of that page
(and the other pages in the site, for that matter). I've basically taken out
every font tag except one I think, and I'm going to take it out probably too,
though it was wrapped around a text entry box in a web component (msn money?)
and that's why I was a little hesitate to mess around with it.

Anyway, as a result of converting all the font formatting to css (in an
external style sheet) and using the "px" unit instead of the "pt" one I used
before (why does FP give you the most options for font size in the one format
that you clearly shouldn't use?), none of the page is controllable with the
font button on IE, except the whether component I added with fp which I can't
figure out how to change because I think there are tags affecting it that
come from the rss feed which overwrite my formatting no matter if I apply it
to the div, table, cell, etc. The result is that if you apply the "largest"
font using IE's font control button to the page, the whether component
expands downward a little, but I don't think that's a big problem, though
it's a little less ascethetically pleasing, imo.

I'm still having the problem with the layers. I've looked around online and
haven't been able to find a good answer yet about whether I can use them
effectively or not and, if I can, how to fix the way netscape renders them.
I would use them if I could get them working properly in netscape and ie
(the later iterations). I realize some people use other browsers, but I
think the people viewing this site (after it gets moved) will not be the type
of people who would go out and find a new browser to use, even one that gets
some attention like Opera or Firefox.

Again, any help on the layers issue would be helpful, and any other major
problems with the page you see that I should look at would also help, even if
you don't want to help me with them. Figuring out the font issue alone and
getting me to make the move to do it all with css was action above and beyond
your call of duty anyway. Anything else is just gravy.

Regardless, thanks again for the help.

Murray said:
Does that sound right?
Yes.

just a shortcoming of FP

Click to expand...

Yes.

FP tends to write code that IE (and sometimes ONLY IE) understands. That's
why I often rant about becoming familiar with HTML and CSS.

--
Murray
============

Cheese_whiz said:

I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting to that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems to
indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by end user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I did it
through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and corsica) needed
to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not even
though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand what you
were saying?

Thanks

Murray said:

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with
these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

message
Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need to
spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what I
thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on (for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I explained in
the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's browser
(also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just
downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content on
layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables appear
to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code than for
me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thomas A. Rowe · Apr 3, 2005

Nowhere is it written that you shouldn't use font tags or that you must use CSS instead. The choice
is up to the developer do whatever they feel is best for them or the project. As long as browsers
support them, they can be used.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

Cheese_whiz said:
Well, after my last post I messed around some more with the code of that page
(and the other pages in the site, for that matter). I've basically taken out
every font tag except one I think, and I'm going to take it out probably too,
though it was wrapped around a text entry box in a web component (msn money?)
and that's why I was a little hesitate to mess around with it.

Anyway, as a result of converting all the font formatting to css (in an
external style sheet) and using the "px" unit instead of the "pt" one I used
before (why does FP give you the most options for font size in the one format
that you clearly shouldn't use?), none of the page is controllable with the
font button on IE, except the whether component I added with fp which I can't
figure out how to change because I think there are tags affecting it that
come from the rss feed which overwrite my formatting no matter if I apply it
to the div, table, cell, etc. The result is that if you apply the "largest"
font using IE's font control button to the page, the whether component
expands downward a little, but I don't think that's a big problem, though
it's a little less ascethetically pleasing, imo.

I'm still having the problem with the layers. I've looked around online and
haven't been able to find a good answer yet about whether I can use them
effectively or not and, if I can, how to fix the way netscape renders them.
I would use them if I could get them working properly in netscape and ie
(the later iterations). I realize some people use other browsers, but I
think the people viewing this site (after it gets moved) will not be the type
of people who would go out and find a new browser to use, even one that gets
some attention like Opera or Firefox.

Again, any help on the layers issue would be helpful, and any other major
problems with the page you see that I should look at would also help, even if
you don't want to help me with them. Figuring out the font issue alone and
getting me to make the move to do it all with css was action above and beyond
your call of duty anyway. Anything else is just gravy.

Regardless, thanks again for the help.

Murray said:

Does that sound right?
Yes.

just a shortcoming of FP

Click to expand...

Yes.

FP tends to write code that IE (and sometimes ONLY IE) understands. That's
why I often rant about becoming familiar with HTML and CSS.

--
Murray
============

Cheese_whiz said:

I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting to that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems to
indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by end user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I did it
through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and corsica) needed
to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not even
though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand what you
were saying?

Thanks

:

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with
these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

message
Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need to
spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what I
thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on (for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I explained in
the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's browser
(also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just
downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content on
layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables appear
to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code than for
me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Cheese_whiz · Apr 4, 2005

Thanks for the reply.

I realize it isn't "written" anywhere, but it's something I wanted to do
anyway. I really can't see a good reason not to do it, and it allows me to
reuse the styles on subsequent text and/or pages and make sitewide changes
more easily. I also don't see why one couldn't reuse a stylesheet on
subsequent websites, so even if I don't save a great deal of time on this
particular site, it may be worth the effort.

Thomas A. Rowe said:
Nowhere is it written that you shouldn't use font tags or that you must use CSS instead. The choice
is up to the developer do whatever they feel is best for them or the project. As long as browsers
support them, they can be used.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

Cheese_whiz said:

Well, after my last post I messed around some more with the code of that page
(and the other pages in the site, for that matter). I've basically taken out
every font tag except one I think, and I'm going to take it out probably too,
though it was wrapped around a text entry box in a web component (msn money?)
and that's why I was a little hesitate to mess around with it.

Anyway, as a result of converting all the font formatting to css (in an
external style sheet) and using the "px" unit instead of the "pt" one I used
before (why does FP give you the most options for font size in the one format
that you clearly shouldn't use?), none of the page is controllable with the
font button on IE, except the whether component I added with fp which I can't
figure out how to change because I think there are tags affecting it that
come from the rss feed which overwrite my formatting no matter if I apply it
to the div, table, cell, etc. The result is that if you apply the "largest"
font using IE's font control button to the page, the whether component
expands downward a little, but I don't think that's a big problem, though
it's a little less ascethetically pleasing, imo.

I'm still having the problem with the layers. I've looked around online and
haven't been able to find a good answer yet about whether I can use them
effectively or not and, if I can, how to fix the way netscape renders them.
I would use them if I could get them working properly in netscape and ie
(the later iterations). I realize some people use other browsers, but I
think the people viewing this site (after it gets moved) will not be the type
of people who would go out and find a new browser to use, even one that gets
some attention like Opera or Firefox.

Again, any help on the layers issue would be helpful, and any other major
problems with the page you see that I should look at would also help, even if
you don't want to help me with them. Figuring out the font issue alone and
getting me to make the move to do it all with css was action above and beyond
your call of duty anyway. Anything else is just gravy.

Regardless, thanks again for the help.

Murray said:

Does that sound right?

Yes.

just a shortcoming of FP

Yes.

FP tends to write code that IE (and sometimes ONLY IE) understands. That's
why I often rant about becoming familiar with HTML and CSS.

--
Murray
============

I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting to that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems to
indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by end user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I did it
through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and corsica) needed
to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not even
though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand what you
were saying?

Thanks

:

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with
these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

message
Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need to
spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what I
thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on (for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I explained in
the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's browser
(also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just
downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content on
layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables appear
to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code than for
me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thomas A. Rowe · Apr 4, 2005

I am not say don't use CSS, just that it seems some folks are being lead to believe that they must
use it, like it is some type requirement set in stone, when it is just another method for developing
a web site.

There are other means to accomplish site wide font changes, colors, images, etc. by using
server-side scripting.

Personally, using server-side scripting gives me more control, then using CSS.

In either case, if you make changes to a CSS or script control file, you still have to view all
pages to see the impact of any changes.
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

Cheese_whiz said:
Thanks for the reply.

I realize it isn't "written" anywhere, but it's something I wanted to do
anyway. I really can't see a good reason not to do it, and it allows me to
reuse the styles on subsequent text and/or pages and make sitewide changes
more easily. I also don't see why one couldn't reuse a stylesheet on
subsequent websites, so even if I don't save a great deal of time on this
particular site, it may be worth the effort.

Thomas A. Rowe said:

Nowhere is it written that you shouldn't use font tags or that you must use CSS instead. The
choice
is up to the developer do whatever they feel is best for them or the project. As long as browsers
support them, they can be used.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

Cheese_whiz said:

Well, after my last post I messed around some more with the code of that page
(and the other pages in the site, for that matter). I've basically taken out
every font tag except one I think, and I'm going to take it out probably too,
though it was wrapped around a text entry box in a web component (msn money?)
and that's why I was a little hesitate to mess around with it.

Anyway, as a result of converting all the font formatting to css (in an
external style sheet) and using the "px" unit instead of the "pt" one I used
before (why does FP give you the most options for font size in the one format
that you clearly shouldn't use?), none of the page is controllable with the
font button on IE, except the whether component I added with fp which I can't
figure out how to change because I think there are tags affecting it that
come from the rss feed which overwrite my formatting no matter if I apply it
to the div, table, cell, etc. The result is that if you apply the "largest"
font using IE's font control button to the page, the whether component
expands downward a little, but I don't think that's a big problem, though
it's a little less ascethetically pleasing, imo.

I'm still having the problem with the layers. I've looked around online and
haven't been able to find a good answer yet about whether I can use them
effectively or not and, if I can, how to fix the way netscape renders them.
I would use them if I could get them working properly in netscape and ie
(the later iterations). I realize some people use other browsers, but I
think the people viewing this site (after it gets moved) will not be the type
of people who would go out and find a new browser to use, even one that gets
some attention like Opera or Firefox.

Again, any help on the layers issue would be helpful, and any other major
problems with the page you see that I should look at would also help, even if
you don't want to help me with them. Figuring out the font issue alone and
getting me to make the move to do it all with css was action above and beyond
your call of duty anyway. Anything else is just gravy.

Regardless, thanks again for the help.

:

Does that sound right?

Yes.

just a shortcoming of FP

Yes.

FP tends to write code that IE (and sometimes ONLY IE) understands. That's
why I often rant about becoming familiar with HTML and CSS.

--
Murray
============

I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting to that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems to
indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by end user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I did it
through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and corsica) needed
to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not even
though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand what you
were saying?

Thanks

:

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with
these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

message
Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need to
spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what I
thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on (for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I explained in
the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's browser
(also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just
downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content on
layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables appear
to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code than for
me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Murray · Apr 6, 2005

As long as you use tags you will only have the option to use points
as a metric. If you do not want to use points, you will not be able to use
the tag, therefore.

It *is* a bad idea to litter your page with literally HUNDREDS of 
tags when the same styling can be accomplished with a few lines of CSS.

--
Murray
============

Thomas A. Rowe said:
I am not say don't use CSS, just that it seems some folks are being lead to
believe that they must use it, like it is some type requirement set in
stone, when it is just another method for developing a web site.

There are other means to accomplish site wide font changes, colors,
images, etc. by using server-side scripting.

Personally, using server-side scripting gives me more control, then using
CSS.

In either case, if you make changes to a CSS or script control file, you
still have to view all pages to see the impact of any changes.
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

Cheese_whiz said:

Thanks for the reply.

I realize it isn't "written" anywhere, but it's something I wanted to do
anyway. I really can't see a good reason not to do it, and it allows me
to
reuse the styles on subsequent text and/or pages and make sitewide
changes
more easily. I also don't see why one couldn't reuse a stylesheet on
subsequent websites, so even if I don't save a great deal of time on this
particular site, it may be worth the effort.

Thomas A. Rowe said:

Nowhere is it written that you shouldn't use font tags or that you must
use CSS instead. The choice
is up to the developer do whatever they feel is best for them or the
project. As long as browsers
support them, they can be used.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp

Well, after my last post I messed around some more with the code of
that page
(and the other pages in the site, for that matter). I've basically
taken out
every font tag except one I think, and I'm going to take it out
probably too,
though it was wrapped around a text entry box in a web component (msn
money?)
and that's why I was a little hesitate to mess around with it.

Anyway, as a result of converting all the font formatting to css (in
an
external style sheet) and using the "px" unit instead of the "pt" one
I used
before (why does FP give you the most options for font size in the one
format
that you clearly shouldn't use?), none of the page is controllable
with the
font button on IE, except the whether component I added with fp which
I can't
figure out how to change because I think there are tags affecting it
that
come from the rss feed which overwrite my formatting no matter if I
apply it
to the div, table, cell, etc. The result is that if you apply the
"largest"
font using IE's font control button to the page, the whether component
expands downward a little, but I don't think that's a big problem,
though
it's a little less ascethetically pleasing, imo.

I'm still having the problem with the layers. I've looked around
online and
haven't been able to find a good answer yet about whether I can use
them
effectively or not and, if I can, how to fix the way netscape renders
them.
I would use them if I could get them working properly in netscape and
ie
(the later iterations). I realize some people use other browsers, but
I
think the people viewing this site (after it gets moved) will not be
the type
of people who would go out and find a new browser to use, even one
that gets
some attention like Opera or Firefox.

Again, any help on the layers issue would be helpful, and any other
major
problems with the page you see that I should look at would also help,
even if
you don't want to help me with them. Figuring out the font issue
alone and
getting me to make the move to do it all with css was action above and
beyond
your call of duty anyway. Anything else is just gravy.

Regardless, thanks again for the help.

:

Does that sound right?

Yes.

just a shortcoming of FP

Yes.

FP tends to write code that IE (and sometimes ONLY IE) understands.
That's
why I often rant about becoming familiar with HTML and CSS.

--
Murray
============

I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting to
that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems to
indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user
devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by end
user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I did
it
through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and corsica)
needed
to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not
even
though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand
what you
were saying?

Thanks

:

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

message
Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the
issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the
wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working
on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this
weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself
with
these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font
family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

message
Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need
to
spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size
changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what
I
thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on
(for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I
explained in
the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's
browser
(also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just
downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content
on
layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but
all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables
appear
to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code
than for
me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right
for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code
at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do
that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thomas A. Rowe · Apr 6, 2005

What makes it a bad idea, just because we now have the option to use CSS?

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

Murray said:
As long as you use tags you will only have the option to use points as a metric. If you do
not want to use points, you will not be able to use the tag, therefore.

It *is* a bad idea to litter your page with literally HUNDREDS of tags when the same
styling can be accomplished with a few lines of CSS.

--
Murray
============

Thomas A. Rowe said:

I am not say don't use CSS, just that it seems some folks are being lead to believe that they must
use it, like it is some type requirement set in stone, when it is just another method for
developing a web site.

There are other means to accomplish site wide font changes, colors, images, etc. by using
server-side scripting.

Personally, using server-side scripting gives me more control, then using CSS.

In either case, if you make changes to a CSS or script control file, you still have to view all
pages to see the impact of any changes.
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

Cheese_whiz said:

Thanks for the reply.

I realize it isn't "written" anywhere, but it's something I wanted to do
anyway. I really can't see a good reason not to do it, and it allows me to
reuse the styles on subsequent text and/or pages and make sitewide changes
more easily. I also don't see why one couldn't reuse a stylesheet on
subsequent websites, so even if I don't save a great deal of time on this
particular site, it may be worth the effort.

:

Nowhere is it written that you shouldn't use font tags or that you must use CSS instead. The
choice
is up to the developer do whatever they feel is best for them or the project. As long as
browsers
support them, they can be used.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp

Well, after my last post I messed around some more with the code of that page
(and the other pages in the site, for that matter). I've basically taken out
every font tag except one I think, and I'm going to take it out probably too,
though it was wrapped around a text entry box in a web component (msn money?)
and that's why I was a little hesitate to mess around with it.

Anyway, as a result of converting all the font formatting to css (in an
external style sheet) and using the "px" unit instead of the "pt" one I used
before (why does FP give you the most options for font size in the one format
that you clearly shouldn't use?), none of the page is controllable with the
font button on IE, except the whether component I added with fp which I can't
figure out how to change because I think there are tags affecting it that
come from the rss feed which overwrite my formatting no matter if I apply it
to the div, table, cell, etc. The result is that if you apply the "largest"
font using IE's font control button to the page, the whether component
expands downward a little, but I don't think that's a big problem, though
it's a little less ascethetically pleasing, imo.

I'm still having the problem with the layers. I've looked around online and
haven't been able to find a good answer yet about whether I can use them
effectively or not and, if I can, how to fix the way netscape renders them.
I would use them if I could get them working properly in netscape and ie
(the later iterations). I realize some people use other browsers, but I
think the people viewing this site (after it gets moved) will not be the type
of people who would go out and find a new browser to use, even one that gets
some attention like Opera or Firefox.

Again, any help on the layers issue would be helpful, and any other major
problems with the page you see that I should look at would also help, even if
you don't want to help me with them. Figuring out the font issue alone and
getting me to make the move to do it all with css was action above and beyond
your call of duty anyway. Anything else is just gravy.

Regardless, thanks again for the help.

:

Does that sound right?

Yes.

just a shortcoming of FP

Yes.

FP tends to write code that IE (and sometimes ONLY IE) understands. That's
why I often rant about becoming familiar with HTML and CSS.

--
Murray
============

I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting to that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems to
indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by end user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I did it
through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and corsica) needed
to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not even
though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand what you
were saying?

Thanks

:

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with
these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

message
Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need to
spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what I
thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on (for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I explained in
the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's browser
(also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just
downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content on
layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables appear
to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code than for
me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Murray · Apr 6, 2005

No, because your page becomes encumbered with the weight of hundreds of font
tags (some of which can be more than voluminous), and this happens on *each*
page. Using CSS, you can accomplish the same styling with a few lines in a
file that gets cached.

I'm not going to mention the maintenance issues.

The real point is this (I think - and it's meaningful at least for me) -

If you can use a tool as powerful as that in such a simple way, why wouldn't
you?

--
Murray
============

Thomas A. Rowe said:
What makes it a bad idea, just because we now have the option to use CSS?

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

Murray said:

As long as you use tags you will only have the option to use
points as a metric. If you do not want to use points, you will not be
able to use the tag, therefore.

It *is* a bad idea to litter your page with literally HUNDREDS of 
tags when the same styling can be accomplished with a few lines of CSS.

--
Murray
============

Thomas A. Rowe said:

I am not say don't use CSS, just that it seems some folks are being lead
to believe that they must use it, like it is some type requirement set in
stone, when it is just another method for developing a web site.

There are other means to accomplish site wide font changes, colors,
images, etc. by using server-side scripting.

Personally, using server-side scripting gives me more control, then
using CSS.

In either case, if you make changes to a CSS or script control file, you
still have to view all pages to see the impact of any changes.
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp

Thanks for the reply.

I realize it isn't "written" anywhere, but it's something I wanted to
do
anyway. I really can't see a good reason not to do it, and it allows
me to
reuse the styles on subsequent text and/or pages and make sitewide
changes
more easily. I also don't see why one couldn't reuse a stylesheet on
subsequent websites, so even if I don't save a great deal of time on
this
particular site, it may be worth the effort.

:

Nowhere is it written that you shouldn't use font tags or that you
must use CSS instead. The choice
is up to the developer do whatever they feel is best for them or the
project. As long as browsers
support them, they can be used.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp

Well, after my last post I messed around some more with the code of
that page
(and the other pages in the site, for that matter). I've basically
taken out
every font tag except one I think, and I'm going to take it out
probably too,
though it was wrapped around a text entry box in a web component
(msn money?)
and that's why I was a little hesitate to mess around with it.

Anyway, as a result of converting all the font formatting to css (in
an
external style sheet) and using the "px" unit instead of the "pt"
one I used
before (why does FP give you the most options for font size in the
one format
that you clearly shouldn't use?), none of the page is controllable
with the
font button on IE, except the whether component I added with fp
which I can't
figure out how to change because I think there are tags affecting it
that
come from the rss feed which overwrite my formatting no matter if I
apply it
to the div, table, cell, etc. The result is that if you apply the
"largest"
font using IE's font control button to the page, the whether
component
expands downward a little, but I don't think that's a big problem,
though
it's a little less ascethetically pleasing, imo.

I'm still having the problem with the layers. I've looked around
online and
haven't been able to find a good answer yet about whether I can use
them
effectively or not and, if I can, how to fix the way netscape
renders them.
I would use them if I could get them working properly in netscape
and ie
(the later iterations). I realize some people use other browsers,
but I
think the people viewing this site (after it gets moved) will not be
the type
of people who would go out and find a new browser to use, even one
that gets
some attention like Opera or Firefox.

Again, any help on the layers issue would be helpful, and any other
major
problems with the page you see that I should look at would also
help, even if
you don't want to help me with them. Figuring out the font issue
alone and
getting me to make the move to do it all with css was action above
and beyond
your call of duty anyway. Anything else is just gravy.

Regardless, thanks again for the help.

:

Does that sound right?

Yes.

just a shortcoming of FP

Yes.

FP tends to write code that IE (and sometimes ONLY IE) understands.
That's
why I often rant about becoming familiar with HTML and CSS.

--
Murray
============

message
I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting
to that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems
to
indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user
devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by
end user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I did
it
through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and corsica)
needed
to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not
even
though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand
what you
were saying?

Thanks

:

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

message
Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the
issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the
wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm
working on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this
weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the
web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in
quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself
with
these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font
family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

in
message
Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I
need to
spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size
changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to
what I
thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on
(for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I
explained in
the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's
browser
(also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just
downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the
content on
layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but
all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the
tables appear
to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code
than for
me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least
right for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the
code at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do
that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Cheese_whiz · Apr 6, 2005

Hey Murray. Still waiting for some advice about the layers issue. Layers
work fine in IE 6.x but in the latest netscape they are positioned too far to
the right.

Any ideas?

Murray said:
As long as you use tags you will only have the option to use points
as a metric. If you do not want to use points, you will not be able to use
the tag, therefore.

It *is* a bad idea to litter your page with literally HUNDREDS of 
tags when the same styling can be accomplished with a few lines of CSS.

--
Murray
============

Thomas A. Rowe said:

I am not say don't use CSS, just that it seems some folks are being lead to
believe that they must use it, like it is some type requirement set in
stone, when it is just another method for developing a web site.

There are other means to accomplish site wide font changes, colors,
images, etc. by using server-side scripting.

Personally, using server-side scripting gives me more control, then using
CSS.

In either case, if you make changes to a CSS or script control file, you
still have to view all pages to see the impact of any changes.
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp

Cheese_whiz said:

Thanks for the reply.

I realize it isn't "written" anywhere, but it's something I wanted to do
anyway. I really can't see a good reason not to do it, and it allows me
to
reuse the styles on subsequent text and/or pages and make sitewide
changes
more easily. I also don't see why one couldn't reuse a stylesheet on
subsequent websites, so even if I don't save a great deal of time on this
particular site, it may be worth the effort.

:

Nowhere is it written that you shouldn't use font tags or that you must
use CSS instead. The choice
is up to the developer do whatever they feel is best for them or the
project. As long as browsers
support them, they can be used.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp

Well, after my last post I messed around some more with the code of
that page
(and the other pages in the site, for that matter). I've basically
taken out
every font tag except one I think, and I'm going to take it out
probably too,
though it was wrapped around a text entry box in a web component (msn
money?)
and that's why I was a little hesitate to mess around with it.

Anyway, as a result of converting all the font formatting to css (in
an
external style sheet) and using the "px" unit instead of the "pt" one
I used
before (why does FP give you the most options for font size in the one
format
that you clearly shouldn't use?), none of the page is controllable
with the
font button on IE, except the whether component I added with fp which
I can't
figure out how to change because I think there are tags affecting it
that
come from the rss feed which overwrite my formatting no matter if I
apply it
to the div, table, cell, etc. The result is that if you apply the
"largest"
font using IE's font control button to the page, the whether component
expands downward a little, but I don't think that's a big problem,
though
it's a little less ascethetically pleasing, imo.

I'm still having the problem with the layers. I've looked around
online and
haven't been able to find a good answer yet about whether I can use
them
effectively or not and, if I can, how to fix the way netscape renders
them.
I would use them if I could get them working properly in netscape and
ie
(the later iterations). I realize some people use other browsers, but
I
think the people viewing this site (after it gets moved) will not be
the type
of people who would go out and find a new browser to use, even one
that gets
some attention like Opera or Firefox.

Again, any help on the layers issue would be helpful, and any other
major
problems with the page you see that I should look at would also help,
even if
you don't want to help me with them. Figuring out the font issue
alone and
getting me to make the move to do it all with css was action above and
beyond
your call of duty anyway. Anything else is just gravy.

Regardless, thanks again for the help.

:

Does that sound right?

Yes.

just a shortcoming of FP

Yes.

FP tends to write code that IE (and sometimes ONLY IE) understands.
That's
why I often rant about becoming familiar with HTML and CSS.

--
Murray
============

I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting to
that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems to
indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user
devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by end
user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I did
it
through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and corsica)
needed
to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not
even
though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand
what you
were saying?

Thanks

:

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

message
Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the
issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the
wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working
on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this
weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself
with
these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font
family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

message
Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need
to
spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size
changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what
I
thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on
(for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I
explained in
the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's
browser
(also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just
downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content
on
layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but
all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables
appear
to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code
than for
me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right
for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code
at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do
that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Murray · Apr 6, 2005

Can we start a new thread on this?

Make sure to point me to your site again with a link, please.

--
Murray
============

Cheese_whiz said:
Hey Murray. Still waiting for some advice about the layers issue. Layers
work fine in IE 6.x but in the latest netscape they are positioned too far
to
the right.

Any ideas?

Murray said:

As long as you use tags you will only have the option to use
points
as a metric. If you do not want to use points, you will not be able to
use
the tag, therefore.

It *is* a bad idea to litter your page with literally HUNDREDS of 
tags when the same styling can be accomplished with a few lines of CSS.

--
Murray
============

Thomas A. Rowe said:

I am not say don't use CSS, just that it seems some folks are being lead
to
believe that they must use it, like it is some type requirement set in
stone, when it is just another method for developing a web site.

There are other means to accomplish site wide font changes, colors,
images, etc. by using server-side scripting.

Personally, using server-side scripting gives me more control, then
using
CSS.

In either case, if you make changes to a CSS or script control file,
you
still have to view all pages to see the impact of any changes.
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp

Thanks for the reply.

I realize it isn't "written" anywhere, but it's something I wanted to
do
anyway. I really can't see a good reason not to do it, and it allows
me
to
reuse the styles on subsequent text and/or pages and make sitewide
changes
more easily. I also don't see why one couldn't reuse a stylesheet on
subsequent websites, so even if I don't save a great deal of time on
this
particular site, it may be worth the effort.

:

Nowhere is it written that you shouldn't use font tags or that you
must
use CSS instead. The choice
is up to the developer do whatever they feel is best for them or the
project. As long as browsers
support them, they can be used.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp

Well, after my last post I messed around some more with the code of
that page
(and the other pages in the site, for that matter). I've basically
taken out
every font tag except one I think, and I'm going to take it out
probably too,
though it was wrapped around a text entry box in a web component
(msn
money?)
and that's why I was a little hesitate to mess around with it.

Anyway, as a result of converting all the font formatting to css
(in
an
external style sheet) and using the "px" unit instead of the "pt"
one
I used
before (why does FP give you the most options for font size in the
one
format
that you clearly shouldn't use?), none of the page is controllable
with the
font button on IE, except the whether component I added with fp
which
I can't
figure out how to change because I think there are tags affecting
it
that
come from the rss feed which overwrite my formatting no matter if I
apply it
to the div, table, cell, etc. The result is that if you apply the
"largest"
font using IE's font control button to the page, the whether
component
expands downward a little, but I don't think that's a big problem,
though
it's a little less ascethetically pleasing, imo.

I'm still having the problem with the layers. I've looked around
online and
haven't been able to find a good answer yet about whether I can use
them
effectively or not and, if I can, how to fix the way netscape
renders
them.
I would use them if I could get them working properly in netscape
and
ie
(the later iterations). I realize some people use other browsers,
but
I
think the people viewing this site (after it gets moved) will not
be
the type
of people who would go out and find a new browser to use, even one
that gets
some attention like Opera or Firefox.

Again, any help on the layers issue would be helpful, and any other
major
problems with the page you see that I should look at would also
help,
even if
you don't want to help me with them. Figuring out the font issue
alone and
getting me to make the move to do it all with css was action above
and
beyond
your call of duty anyway. Anything else is just gravy.

Regardless, thanks again for the help.

:

Does that sound right?

Yes.

just a shortcoming of FP

Yes.

FP tends to write code that IE (and sometimes ONLY IE)
understands.
That's
why I often rant about becoming familiar with HTML and CSS.

--
Murray
============

message
I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting
to
that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems
to
indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user
devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by
end
user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I
did
it
through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and
corsica)
needed
to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not
even
though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand
what you
were saying?

Thanks

:

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

message
Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the
issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the
wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm
working
on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time
this
weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the
web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in
quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself
with
these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font
family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

in
message
Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I
need
to
spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size
changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to
what
I
thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working
on
(for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I
explained in
the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's
browser
(also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I
just
downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the
content
on
layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but
all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the
tables
appear
to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code
than for
me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least
right
for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the
code
at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll
do
that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thomas A. Rowe · Apr 6, 2005

I will continue to opt for real-time flexibility over the limited benefits I see of using CSS.

Example, I am working on a page and for whatever reason in the middle of a paragraph, etc. I need to
change a font attribute (bold, underlined, etc) or create a hyperlink, I can easily do this when
using font tags, whereas if CSS has been applied, I have to create a new style just for that and
work with the tag to get the text to appear as I want. I can not just change the original CSS
style, since I would then have look all pages to see how the changed style will impact the existing
layout, if changed.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

Murray said:
No, because your page becomes encumbered with the weight of hundreds of font tags (some of which
can be more than voluminous), and this happens on *each* page. Using CSS, you can accomplish the
same styling with a few lines in a file that gets cached.

I'm not going to mention the maintenance issues.

The real point is this (I think - and it's meaningful at least for me) -

If you can use a tool as powerful as that in such a simple way, why wouldn't you?

--
Murray
============

Thomas A. Rowe said:

What makes it a bad idea, just because we now have the option to use CSS?

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

Murray said:

As long as you use tags you will only have the option to use points as a metric. If you
do not want to use points, you will not be able to use the tag, therefore.

It *is* a bad idea to litter your page with literally HUNDREDS of tags when the same
styling can be accomplished with a few lines of CSS.

--
Murray
============

I am not say don't use CSS, just that it seems some folks are being lead to believe that they
must use it, like it is some type requirement set in stone, when it is just another method for
developing a web site.

There are other means to accomplish site wide font changes, colors, images, etc. by using
server-side scripting.

Personally, using server-side scripting gives me more control, then using CSS.

In either case, if you make changes to a CSS or script control file, you still have to view all
pages to see the impact of any changes.
--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp

Thanks for the reply.

I realize it isn't "written" anywhere, but it's something I wanted to do
anyway. I really can't see a good reason not to do it, and it allows me to
reuse the styles on subsequent text and/or pages and make sitewide changes
more easily. I also don't see why one couldn't reuse a stylesheet on
subsequent websites, so even if I don't save a great deal of time on this
particular site, it may be worth the effort.

:

Nowhere is it written that you shouldn't use font tags or that you must use CSS instead. The
choice
is up to the developer do whatever they feel is best for them or the project. As long as
browsers
support them, they can be used.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp

Well, after my last post I messed around some more with the code of that page
(and the other pages in the site, for that matter). I've basically taken out
every font tag except one I think, and I'm going to take it out probably too,
though it was wrapped around a text entry box in a web component (msn money?)
and that's why I was a little hesitate to mess around with it.

Anyway, as a result of converting all the font formatting to css (in an
external style sheet) and using the "px" unit instead of the "pt" one I used
before (why does FP give you the most options for font size in the one format
that you clearly shouldn't use?), none of the page is controllable with the
font button on IE, except the whether component I added with fp which I can't
figure out how to change because I think there are tags affecting it that
come from the rss feed which overwrite my formatting no matter if I apply it
to the div, table, cell, etc. The result is that if you apply the "largest"
font using IE's font control button to the page, the whether component
expands downward a little, but I don't think that's a big problem, though
it's a little less ascethetically pleasing, imo.

I'm still having the problem with the layers. I've looked around online and
haven't been able to find a good answer yet about whether I can use them
effectively or not and, if I can, how to fix the way netscape renders them.
I would use them if I could get them working properly in netscape and ie
(the later iterations). I realize some people use other browsers, but I
think the people viewing this site (after it gets moved) will not be the type
of people who would go out and find a new browser to use, even one that gets
some attention like Opera or Firefox.

Again, any help on the layers issue would be helpful, and any other major
problems with the page you see that I should look at would also help, even if
you don't want to help me with them. Figuring out the font issue alone and
getting me to make the move to do it all with css was action above and beyond
your call of duty anyway. Anything else is just gravy.

Regardless, thanks again for the help.

:

Does that sound right?

Yes.

just a shortcoming of FP

Yes.

FP tends to write code that IE (and sometimes ONLY IE) understands. That's
why I often rant about becoming familiar with HTML and CSS.

--
Murray
============

I do have two quick/simple font questions that would help getting to that
point: i read an article that explains em and px, and it seems to
indicate
that px will scale, but is not easily controlled by end user devices
(browser?), whereas em is both scalable and easily modified by end user
devices. Does that sound right?

Also, when I chose the font and wrote my simple stylesheet, I did it
through
Frontpage. You said a font with two names (monotype and corsica) needed
to
be in parens to be in proper syntax. Is the fact that it is not even
though
I did it in FP just a shortcoming of FP, or did I not understand what you
were saying?

Thanks

:

You're welcome! Lemme know....

--
Murray
============

Thanks Murray. You're a godsend. I'm going to address the issues you
pointed out and then get back to this thread. Actually, the wordart is
gone
and I can make a graphic for that if I need to, and I'm working on
figuring
out which font size method to use as we speak. Some time this weekend
I'll
have it figured out and fixed.

Hopefully you'll be around to point out some other stuff

Thanks again.

:

probably some itteration of 5).

Ick.

First thing you gotta do is get rid of the WordArt -

<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t136"
coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="136" adj="10800"
path="m@7,l@8,m@5,21600l@6,21600e">
<v:formulas>
<v:f eqn="sum #0 0 10800"/>
<v:f eqn="prod #0 2 1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="sum 21600 0 @3"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @3 0"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 21600 @1"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 0 @2"/>
<v:f eqn="if @0 @4 21600"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @5 @6"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @8 @5"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @7 @8"/>
<v:f eqn="mid @6 @7"/>
<v:f eqn="sum @6 0 @5"/>
and on, and on....

Since that's only supported in IE/PC.

Next thing would be not to use a print font metric on the web -

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: Monotype Corsiva

Use px, em, en, ex, %, or font size names instead.

Also - two (or more) word font names MUST be wrapped in quotes.

In addition, I'd strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with
these
websafe fonts and use only them, or at least provide a font family in
your
styling, e.g.,

BODY {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: "Monotype Corsiva", verdana, arial, helvetica,
sans-serif

http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html

Then, take two aspirin, and call me in the morning.

--
Murray
============

message
Wow, thanks for the great response. I have a feeling I need to
spend
a
little more time understanding the different positioning
possibilities.

Layers are really nice now that I know how
to keep them in position if the browser window size changes.

How are you doing that?

I may have jumped way ahead of myself with respect to what I
thought
I
knew. However, here's the link to the page I'm working on (for
someone
else). http://home.nc.rr.com/digdomain

It all works fine for me in IE 6, of course. But as I explained in
the
original post, something's going on wrong in my friend's browser
(also
IE
but
probably some itteration of 5). In Netscape, which I just
downloaded
and
tested, it's sorta messed up.....much if not all the content on
layers
seems
to adjust with the browser window size like I wanted, but all the
layers
are
too far to the right on the page, and the size of the tables appear
to
be
different?

It would be easier, I'm sure, for you to look at the code than for
me
to
explain what I was doing. I figured I had it at least right for IE
but
it
seems I've only got it right for one person: me.

Would be interested in any further advice based on the code at that
url.
Otherwise, I'll try to plod through some more css (I'll do that
anyway).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

layers and FP 2003	3	Apr 5, 2008
Designate font as italic of another	0	Nov 3, 2022
Layers and FP 2003	0	May 1, 2008
Layers - how to 'stick'	13	Sep 26, 2006
Overlapping text on my website.	2	May 8, 2009
How can the font and size of (all) citation numbers be altered?	1	Sep 20, 2022
Using image front and back function?	2	Oct 21, 2008
Using Layers to open browser windows	0	Sep 1, 2006

Layers and user controlled font settings.

Cheese_whiz

Murray

Cheese_whiz

Murray

Murray

Cheese_whiz

Murray

Cheese_whiz

Murray

Cheese_whiz

Cheese_whiz

Thomas A. Rowe

Cheese_whiz

Thomas A. Rowe

Murray

Thomas A. Rowe

Murray

Cheese_whiz

Murray

Thomas A. Rowe

Ask a Question

Similar Threads