Laying out a roster in columns

[John B.]

Is there a control in Word that keeps consecutive paragraphs from splitting
across page breaks or columns breaks?

I want all consecutive non-blank lines to stay together.

I'm trying to layout a roster in columns:

Name 1
Address 1
Phone Number 1

Name 2
Address 2
Phone Number 2

Name 3
Address 3
Phone Number 3

 

[Elliott Roper]

Is there a control in Word that keeps consecutive paragraphs from splitting
across page breaks or columns breaks?

Easy!
format->paragraph->line and page breaks->keep with next.

If you do this a lot, I'd suggest a style or two and perhaps defining a
keyboard shorcut or three.

 

[Norman R. Nager, Ph.D.]

Easy!
format->paragraph->line and page breaks->keep with next.

If you do this a lot, I'd suggest a style or two and perhaps defining a
keyboard shorcut or three.

As another person concerned with two-column rosters, I'm grateful that John
raised the question and Elliott responded.

But I'm confused on how to make it work in a roster document in which
listings vary from 5 to 8 lines of text, each line ending hitting return at
the end of each line of text and hitting return twice between listings.

If I click "keep with next" and start typing a new several line listing in
the middle of the roster, it still allows the listings at the bottoms of
columns and pages to split. ?

 

[John B.]

Easy!
format->paragraph->line and page breaks->keep with next.

If you do this a lot, I'd suggest a style or two and perhaps defining a
keyboard shorcut or three.

Hmmm, if I understand correctly, I'd have to apply that on a case-by-case
basis. I'm looking for a solution that I can apply to the entire document,
so I don't have to examine the document to find the problems!

Anbody have ideas on using soft-breaks and orphans?

Thanks!

 

[John B.]

As another person concerned with two-column rosters, I'm grateful that John
raised the question and Elliott responded.

But I'm confused on how to make it work in a roster document in which
listings vary from 5 to 8 lines of text, each line ending hitting return at
the end of each line of text and hitting return twice between listings.

If I click "keep with next" and start typing a new several line listing in
the middle of the roster, it still allows the listings at the bottoms of
columns and pages to split. ?

I figured there were others out there. Sure makes me feel better to have a
Ph.D. puzzling over the same issue. I'll be sure to let you know if I find a
way.

John

 

[Elliott Roper]

As another person concerned with two-column rosters, I'm grateful that John
raised the question and Elliott responded.

But I'm confused on how to make it work in a roster document in which
listings vary from 5 to 8 lines of text, each line ending hitting return at
the end of each line of text and hitting return twice between listings.

If I click "keep with next" and start typing a new several line listing in
the middle of the roster, it still allows the listings at the bottoms of
columns and pages to split. ?

I *think* this is in Clive Huggan's "Bend Word to your WIll" to be
found on the mvp's site. It is probably much better explained in there.

Make two styles (maybe three). Call them RosterHead, RosterMiddle and
RosterEnd. (I'd give them cute one letter aliases so I could use KB
shortcuts to change styles.)

Roster Head, I'd define with 'keep with next" as I would Roster Middle.
Roster head would have next style defined as RosterMiddle, as would
RosterMiddle. RosterEnd would have no keep with next, but would assign
space after.

In use, with r,m and s as the short aliases for the styles, you'd type
a roster entry like so:
cmd-shift-sr<ret> roster heading stuff<ret>roster middle stuff<ret>..
then when you get to the last line cmd-shift-ss<ret>last line of roster
stuff<ret>

For extra cuteness you could define the next style of RosterEnd to be
RosterHead if that matched your way of working.

Another method, (much scruffier) is simply to apply keep with next
property to paragraphs which split unpleasantly. Be warned that you
should expect to deal with a cascade of mucking about if you add roster
entries near the front a long list of them. So do it properly to start
with.

Note that ending a paragraph by hitting return twice is a sure sign of
a ransom note author. If your styles are defined right, you will get a
better looking gap at the end of each roster entry, and you will avoid
dealing with ugliness brought on when later your double paragraph marks
span a column or page break.

Note further, that due to a misfeature of Word, you must have the
formatting panel open and 'font' disclosure triangle on it turned down
to make cmd-shift-s respect your short aliases for your style names.
Make the short alias by appending it to the style name after a comma
e.g. RosterHead,r

 

[Elliott Roper]

Hmmm, if I understand correctly, I'd have to apply that on a case-by-case
basis. I'm looking for a solution that I can apply to the entire document,
so I don't have to examine the document to find the problems!

No, it was not meant to be 'case-by-case'. My 'style' method was
elaborated upon a few minutes ago. Define the styles, then apply them
to your existing rosters if you wish.

Anbody have ideas on using soft-breaks and orphans?

A tiny bit more follow up then:-
"keep with next" effectively disables the default soft break for where
you don't want one.

Enabling Widow/Orphan control will help if there is only one following
line that you don't want to split. I have never found a way to vary the
number of lines.

 

[John B.]

In use, with r,m and s as the short aliases for the styles, you'd type
a roster entry like so:

cmd-shift-sr<ret> roster heading stuff
<ret> roster middle stuff
<ret>...
then when you get to the last line
cmd-shift-ss<ret>last line of roster stuff<ret>

Hmmm ... I'm having some trouble understanding this approach ...

However my experiments seem to indicate that only three simple rules are
necessary to keep groups of lines (in this case, roster entries) from
splitting at column or page boundaries:

1) Use shift-return for line breaks within a roster entry. *

2) Use return at the end of a roster entry

3) Set the Format for the entire document to:

Format/paragraph/Lines and Page Breaks:
Widow/Orphan: checked
Keep with next: checked

At first it looked as though this wasn't working ... but that was just
because Word handles it rather slowly. I looked away before Word had
completed it's task -- and it was only 250 entries. Word is only slightly
faster when there are just ten or so entries ... (Why so slow???)

Granted, replacing only certain returns with shift-return could be a lot of
work for anyone who has already entered roster.

Luckily in your case Norman, you can find/replace each single return with a
shift-return, leaving your double returns in place.

In my case, I'm exporting from a database, so I can send it out in any
format I want -- and that's especially easy with AppleScript.

Thanks all!

John





* Previously I've known Shift-return as "soft line breaks." Microsoft's
documentation calls them "manual line breaks." Whatever the name, they are
ASCII character 11 -- known in the world of ASCII as a vertical tab. Many
applications use them to allow line breaks with paragraphs; including
Filemaker uses them for line breaks within a record -- this is because a
return is ordinarily use to mark the end of a record.)

 

[Norman R. Nager, Ph.D.]

However my experiments seem to indicate that only three simple rules are
necessary to keep groups of lines (in this case, roster entries) from
splitting at column or page boundaries:

1) Use shift-return for line breaks within a roster entry. *

2) Use return at the end of a roster entry

3) Set the Format for the entire document to:

Format/paragraph/Lines and Page Breaks:
Widow/Orphan: checked
Keep with next: checked

At first it looked as though this wasn't working ... but that was just
because Word handles it rather slowly. I looked away before Word had
completed it's task -- and it was only 250 entries. Word is only slightly
faster when there are just ten or so entries ... (Why so slow???)

Granted, replacing only certain returns with shift-return could be a lot of
work for anyone who has already entered roster.

Luckily in your case Norman, you can find/replace each single return with a
shift-return, leaving your double returns in place.
John

Still lost.

I have a two-column Word roster document in which listings vary from 5 to 8
lines of text. At the end of each line I had hit return. Between
listings, I had typed a double return. Before reading this thread, to
avoid the splitting of listings between columns and pages, I had added extra
spacing between listings at the bottom of columns and changed the size of
spaces in some cases from 12 pt. to 8 pt.

After reading this thread, I tried and failed with the following two
attempts:

With the widow/orphan and keep next paragraph settings at the top of the
document, I positioned the cursor just before the bottom listing in the
column created a dummy entry, using shift-return at the end of each line and
then hard-return at the end of the listing. It split the next listing
between columns.

I went back to the original document. This time I checked widow/orphan and
keep with next and then tried a replace single paragraph with manual line
break but nothing happened. When I unchecked keep with next, it found and
replaced some 700 hard returns. But once again, when I entered a dummy
listing with shift-return at the end of each line and hard return at the end
of the listing, it split what had been the column's bottom listing between
columns.

Suggestions, please?

 

[Norman R. Nager, Ph.D.]

I *think* this is in Clive Huggan's "Bend Word to your WIll" to be
found on the mvp's site. It is probably much better explained in there.

I searched at the MVPs site, including in Huggan's "Bend Word to your Will"
and could not find a reference to columns that dealt with how to avoid
splits.

Elliott Roper, or any other reader of this thread, do you have a specific
url?

Thanks, Norm

 

[Elliott Roper]

I searched at the MVPs site, including in Huggan's "Bend Word to your Will"
and could not find a reference to columns that dealt with how to avoid
splits.

Elliott Roper, or any other reader of this thread, do you have a specific
url?

Thanks, Norm

Sorry. I mis-remembered. I now think it originally came from a
discussion here between me and John McGhie in Dec 2002 (Google for
'suppressing space before' on this group. Mine was a slightly different
problem to your's but had a similar solution to what I suggested
yesterday)

I'd suggest that carefully reading Clive Huggan's 'Bend.. from p66 on
styles and also Appendix B of BWTYW (minimum maintenance) will not be
time wasted.

Look for stuff in there on keeping lists together too.

 

[John B.]

I searched at the MVPs site, including in Huggan's "Bend Word to your Will"
and could not find a reference to columns that dealt with how to avoid
splits.

Elliott Roper, or any other reader of this thread, do you have a specific
url?

Thanks, Norm

Norm,

That article had many useful points, but I don't think it directly addresses
the issue at hand.

Copy and paste the

Try following test data Word and see if it produces the result your after.
Copy it, Paste it, select all, and then set the format:

Format/Paragraph/Lines and Page Breaks: check "Keep with next"

================== Test Data ==============

Person 11000 Main StreetAnytown, ST 12345Phone 1

Person 22000 Main StreetNextTown, ST 22345Phone 2

Person 33000 Main StreetNextTown, ST 32345Phone 3Note: Past president

Person 44000 Main StreetNextTown, ST 32345Phone 3Extra lineA Extra
lineB Extra lineC

Person 5NOTE: No address or phone

================================================

Test this by adding returns at the beginning of your column or document
until the roster entry (paragraph) tries to split, if the whole entry moves,
your set.

If it works like it does for me, you'll see that it doesn't matter how many
lines are in the roster entry.

If you want to convert your document to behave this way, you'll need to
replace all mid-roster returns. This requires a slightly sophisticated
search and replace operation -- you'll have to perform the exact execution
of a few steps -- but that sure beats replacing all those returns by hand!

Here's one strategy for changing all single returns to "manual line breaks":

1) Make a backup of your roster document. Edit your working copy as
described below.

2) Find all double returns (paragraph marks): ^p^p

.... replacing with € or some other unique character you know is not in your
document.

(Be forewarned this step will make your look horrible temporarily and jam
all your entries together ... proceed calmly.)

3) Find all the remaining single returns (paragraph breaks): ^p

.... replacing with "manual line break": ^l

4) Now reinstate your double returns:

Find all €

.... replacing double returns (paragraph marks): ^p^p

Once this is completed, set the format with the following steps:

Select all
Format/Paragraph/Lines and Page Breaks: check "Keep with next"

Test the document as before to see if the roster entries hold together and
resist splitting at column or page breaks.

In the future, when entering new roster items:

1) Use shift-return for line breaks within a roster entry. *

2) Use a double return at the end of a roster entry

3) Always make sure the Format of the entire document is:

Format/paragraph/Lines and Page Breaks:
Keep with next: checked

NOTE: widow/Orphan has no impact

* Previously I've known Shift-return as "soft line breaks." Microsoft's
documentation calls them "manual line breaks." Whatever the name, they are
ASCII character 11 -- known in the world of ASCII as a vertical tab. Many
applications use them to allow line breaks with paragraphs; including
Filemaker uses them for line breaks within a record -- this is because a
return is ordinarily use to mark the end of a record.)

One last thing, you can find all those funny characters in pop-up menu in
the Find/Replace window.

Hope that does it,

John

 

[Norman R. Nager, Ph.D.]

Try following test data Word and see if it produces the result your after.
Copy it, Paste it, select all, and then set the format:

Format/Paragraph/Lines and Page Breaks: check "Keep with next"

================== Test Data ==============

Person 11000 Main StreetAnytown, ST 12345Phone 1

Person 22000 Main StreetNextTown, ST 22345Phone 2
Person 33000 Main StreetNextTown, ST 32345Phone 3Note: Past president

Person 44000 Main StreetNextTown, ST 32345Phone 3Extra lineA Extra
lineB Extra lineC

Person 5NOTE: No address or phone

================================================

Test this by adding returns at the beginning of your column or document
until the roster entry (paragraph) tries to split, if the whole entry moves,
your set.

If it works like it does for me, you'll see that it doesn't matter how many
lines are in the roster entry.

John, I still get split listings at the bottom of columns Are you using
Word 2004? I'm working with Office 2004 and OS 10.3.4.

If you want to convert your document to behave this way, you'll need to
replace all mid-roster returns. This requires a slightly sophisticated
search and replace operation -- you'll have to perform the exact execution
of a few steps -- but that sure beats replacing all those returns by hand!

Here's one strategy for changing all single returns to "manual line breaks":

1) Make a backup of your roster document. Edit your working copy as
described below.

2) Find all double returns (paragraph marks): ^p^p

... replacing with € or some other unique character you know is not in your

document.

(Be forewarned this step will make your look horrible temporarily and jam
all your entries together ... proceed calmly.)

3) Find all the remaining single returns (paragraph breaks): ^p

... replacing with "manual line break": ^l


4) Now reinstate your double returns:

Find all €

... replacing double returns (paragraph marks): ^p^p


Once this is completed, set the format with the following steps:

Select all
Format/Paragraph/Lines and Page Breaks: check "Keep with next"

Test the document as before to see if the roster entries hold together and
resist splitting at column or page breaks.

In the future, when entering new roster items:

1) Use shift-return for line breaks within a roster entry. *

2) Use a double return at the end of a roster entry

3) Always make sure the Format of the entire document is:

Format/paragraph/Lines and Page Breaks:
Keep with next: checked

NOTE: widow/Orphan has no impact

Went through the drill several times but I still get split listings.

I'm appreciate of your thoughtful counsel, even if I can't get it to work.

Respectfully, Norm

 

[John B.]

John, I still get split listings at the bottom of columns Are you using
Word 2004? I'm working with Office 2004 and OS 10.3.4.

Went through the drill several times but I still get split listings.

I'm appreciate of your thoughtful counsel, even if I can't get it to work.

Respectfully, Norm

Some problem in posting my reply ... something about an illegal null
character.

I will attempt to send it without attachements, and send the attachements in
a subsequent message.

See the next messages in this thread.

John

 

[John B.]

John, I still get split listings at the bottom of columns Are you using
Word 2004? I'm working with Office 2004 and OS 10.3.4.

Went through the drill several times but I still get split listings.

I'm appreciate of your thoughtful counsel, even if I can't get it to work.

Respectfully, Norm

Hi Norm,

I'm using:

Office 2001 (I guess that's Word X.version 1)
Mac OS 10.2.8

Try the attached Word document. Test it by adding returns at the top of the
first column, or between any two roster entries.

Let me know if it works!

----------

A small word of warning though. At one point I encountered a peculiar
formatting bug.

I opened a working document, pasted in the dummy records (listed again
below), selected all, and set the format to:

Format/paragraph/Lines and Page Breaks: Keep with next: checked

Usually that's all it takes. But I noticed the document was working as
expected.

To investigate I selected all and revisited the format window. I found all
options marked "-" (as shown in wordParaFormat.jpg attachment.) This
indicated that words no options were consistently applied across the
selected paragraphs.

I unchecked everything each option. Checked "Keep with next." And clicked
OK.

AGAIN the document didn't behave properly (the roster lines failing to hold
together.!)

Again, I selected all, and I went to the Format window. The formatting
appeared again like the attachment! I certainly don't know what that's
about.

Nevertheless, the "roster" scenario works fine whenever Word sees fit to
retain the format:

Format/paragraph/Lines and Page Breaks: Keep with next: checked

Why it wouldn't stick, I don't know ... I hardly EVER use Word.

John

NOTE: I've sent this without attachments because I was getting an error
message. I will attempt to send attachments next.


================= dummy records ================
Person 11000 Main StreetAnytown, ST 12345Phone 1

Person 22000 Main StreetNextTown, ST 22345Phone 2

Person 33000 Main StreetNextTown, ST 32345Phone 3Note: Past president

Person 44000 Main StreetNextTown, ST 32345Phone 3Extra lineA Extra
lineB Extra line

Person 5NOTE: No address or phone

 

[John B.]

I'm unable to send the Word document or the JPEG attached to a message to
the newsgroup.

Error message:

441 Rejected: microsoft.public.mac.office.word does not allow binary posts
[postfilter].

So I've sent them to you directly Norm.

John

 

[John B.]

I'm unable to send the Word document or the JPEG attached to a message to
the newsgroup.

Error message:

441 Rejected: microsoft.public.mac.office.word does not allow binary posts
[postfilter].

So I've sent them to you directly Norm.

John

I've tried emailing the attachments to you, but apparently I can't figure
out what your actual email address is. Email me if you want the attachments.

John

 

[Norman R. Nager, Ph.D.]

Thanks very much, John. I believe there may be a difference in how Word
2004, which I'm using with OS 10.3.5, and Word 2001, which you are using
with OS 10.2.8, handle a two column document with Format/Paragraph/Lines
and Page Breaks: check "Keep with next"

I'll have to do some reading on creating format styles when I can budget the
time.

Respectfully, Norm

 

[John B.]

Thanks very much, John. I believe there may be a difference in how Word
2004, which I'm using with OS 10.3.5, and Word 2001, which you are using
with OS 10.2.8, handle a two column document with Format/Paragraph/Lines
and Page Breaks: check "Keep with next"

I'll have to do some reading on creating format styles when I can budget the
time.

Respectfully, Norm

Or you could try my document. Then you'll know for sure if it works. I can't
really see why it wouldn't in work 2004. It's just one feature (keep with
Next) and if it's still there it should work.

John

 

[Norman R. Nager, Ph.D.]

John, thanks so very much for your superb follow-through and persistence.

I figured that if you could go through so much effort, maybe I could figure
out a way to make it work.

I speculated that something might be wrong with my "Normal"

So, I did a select-all, copied into TextSoap, "scrubbed" out all formatting
except the paragraphing and pasted my doctored roster listings between the
first and last listings of your attached document (wiping out all your
listings but those two).

I then deleted your first and last listings and started playing with the
roster. Works like a charm!

The only weird thing is that in page layout view, even though I changed the
font in the new document to be exactly the same as in the old document, the
12 point Times Roman in the new document looks smaller and the page view
looks smaller.

That floors me.

I think it's time I tossed my "Normal" and started from scratch in creating
a new Normal template.

Respectfully, Norm