MVP?

[JL Paules]

Bravo, Chris!

--
JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

(e-mail address removed),
Your posts to the group have been this weekends entertainment for us.

While you have been busy being non productive by whining and griping wasting
your "precious time", we've been busy re-building a network and updating our
web site using Adobe Go Live. Long ago we realized that Publisher 2000 was
limited in what we wanted for our site. We used Front Page 2000 then XP. As
stated we now use Go Live, but are evaluating Macromedia MX suite. Time
spent to do this, yes, but in my opinion it is well worth it. Your business
site can stagnate, because you cannot take free advice from some very
knowlegdable people, our sites will not because we did.

 

[analog]

If sucess is measured by the stock price, they are certainly far from
their apex. M$ is not the big caharitable giver, it is Bill's
personal foundation (the stockholders might not be too happy if all
their money was being given away). M$ pretty much continues its nasty
business practices; not even AT&T was allowed to keep it up forever.
A better product, running out of luck in antitrust lawsuits, who
knows, but it will happen.

 

[analog]

Have you looked at the name of this newsgroup? I am sure you are
absolutely right, but I paid money for Publisher, and M$
misrepresented what it could do. That is wrong. I came here
originally hoping for guidance on moving into Publisher 2003 to solve
problems. Instead I hear an unending litany of how Publisher is not
for websites. BUT M$ SAID IT WAS.

\On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:46:01 -0700, "Chris Schatte"

 

[Chris Schatte]

(e-mail address removed)
Know perfectly well what the group is for
Before we actually purchase software time is spent in evaluating, visiting groups, asking questions, basic/advanced research to see if it will fulfill our needs

Chris Schatt

 

[tech27]

Have you looked at the name of this newsgroup? I am sure you are
absolutely right, but I paid money for Publisher, and M$
misrepresented what it could do.

No they didn't. But if YOU think they did sue them.

That is wrong.
No, YOU are wrong.

I came here

originally hoping for guidance on moving into Publisher 2003 to solve
problems. Instead I hear an unending litany of how Publisher is not
for websites.

It's not THE BEST for websites, but it depends on what you want to do. FLASH
is the best for Flash Sites, but if you don't want Flash then......

BUT M$ SAID IT WAS.

AND IT IS. You can also create webpages in Word, but it's not THE BEST. You
can also brush your teeth with soap, BUT......

Mostly, you need to learn the program and stop WHINNING! I use Publisher for
webdesign, but I will probably move to GOLIVE once I have the time to learn
it. Publisher, on the other hand, allowed me to throw up a page in about an
hour after I started the program for the very first time. Simple, yes.
Powerfull, not really.

 

[JL Paules]

AND IT IS. You can also create webpages in Word, but it's not THE BEST. You
can also brush your teeth with soap, BUT......

Yuck! Having had to sit with Ivory bar soap scraped against the back of my
front two teeth as a child, I can tell you that there are better choices.
;-)

 

[analog]

I do not understand this apologist attitude for one of the wealthiest
corporations in the world. A corporation that has consistently
delivered products that just don't quite work right. If you got a car
that was a lemon, would you blame yourself for not knowing about it
ahead of time? Of course not, you would expect the manufacturer to
fix it. M$ should have fixed Publisher years ago, but insted has made
it worse, while still claiming it is suitable for website development
for small business.

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

The key is in your statement:
"suitable for website development for small business"
Whether it is suitable for your business is one thing.
Whether it is suitable for another is another thing.
You are the only one that can determine what is suitable for your
business.

Go to your car example.
You go to the dealer and explain you want a vehicle for a family.
He sells you a nice roomy comfortable 7 passenger mini van because it
is "suitable for a family"
A week later you start a suit against the dealer claiming it is not
suitable for a family and the salesrep misrepresented the van.
You claim your 9 person family will not fit therefore it is the
dealers fault.

Perhaps you should have done more research.
There are many web applications suitable for web publishing.
Some will work with some businesses, others with other businesses.
Only you the buyer is capable of making the actual decision after
proper research.

With your feelings toward Microsoft, it amazes me you even buy
Microsoft products with so many other non Microsoft options for web
development.
If on the other hand, you did your research and bought the best for
your business situation, you really have no valid argument.
None of these products are so new that adequate information is hard to
find.

If there was a misrepresentation of the product, take the
documentation to a lawyer and start a class action lawsuit.
If your grievance is legitimate, you will have little trouble finding
a lawyer.

 

[analog]

The metaphor would be more like a week later, the engine falls out of
the car. I am not the only one to use Publisher for a website only to
discover it has problems after using it for awhile. Rather than
fixing the problems, subsequent versions of Publisher just get worse.
One thing that has always been implicit with M$ software is the
ability to upgrade if you are willing to spend the money. But even
the pundits in here recommend sticking with Publisher 2000 if you are
doing a website. To add insult to injury, one cannot easily graduate
from Publisher to FrontPage (though there are reportedly improvements
in FP 2003 with respect to cleaning up Publisher's nasty html). The
frustration is that there is no easy cure to this problem, even if one
has the time to suffer through a move to FrontPage or Dreamweaver, and
that is maddening.

There is a law firm wanting to do a class action on this issue (and
some related M$ software issues). But class action litigation is time
consuming and generally financially rewarding only for the lawyers. I
would not mind seeing M$ suffer a little, but all I really want is a
way out of the mess I am in. And that does not look easy.

 

[tech27]

Yuck! Having had to sit with Ivory bar soap scraped against the back of my
front two teeth as a child, I can tell you that there are better choices.
;-)

Yes. And there are better choices for web design software. But it's your
perogative to brush with Ivory soap.

 

[tech27]

I do not understand this apologist attitude for one of the wealthiest
corporations in the world.

I think it's THE wealthiest corporation in the world.

A corporation that has consistently

delivered products that just don't quite work right.

Now you're getting it!

If you got a car

that was a lemon, would you blame yourself for not knowing about it
ahead of time?

If the information was out there and you didn't research it, then YES.

Of course not, you would expect the manufacturer to

fix it.

See: Lemon Laws.

M$ should have fixed Publisher years ago, but insted has made

it worse, while still claiming it is suitable for website development
for small business.

Maybe they are just too busy making security patches for Windows?

 

[tech27]

The key is in your statement:
"suitable for website development for small business"
Whether it is suitable for your business is one thing.
Whether it is suitable for another is another thing.
You are the only one that can determine what is suitable for your
business.

Go to your car example.
You go to the dealer and explain you want a vehicle for a family.
He sells you a nice roomy comfortable 7 passenger mini van because it
is "suitable for a family"
A week later you start a suit against the dealer claiming it is not
suitable for a family and the salesrep misrepresented the van.
You claim your 9 person family will not fit therefore it is the
dealers fault.

Perhaps you should have done more research.
There are many web applications suitable for web publishing.
Some will work with some businesses, others with other businesses.
Only you the buyer is capable of making the actual decision after
proper research.

With your feelings toward Microsoft, it amazes me you even buy
Microsoft products with so many other non Microsoft options for web
development.
If on the other hand, you did your research and bought the best for
your business situation, you really have no valid argument.
None of these products are so new that adequate information is hard to
find.

If there was a misrepresentation of the product, take the
documentation to a lawyer and start a class action lawsuit.
If your grievance is legitimate, you will have little trouble finding
a lawyer.

Better still, get a Unix/Linus box and start playing with all the free
software you can get.

 

[Ed Bennett]

A small child turns to Ed, and exclaims: "Look! Look! A post from

The metaphor

It's an analogy, not a metaphor.

would be more like a week later, the engine falls out of
the car.

What? Publisher won't open, modify, or save files any more?

I am not the only one to use Publisher for a website only to
discover it has problems after using it for awhile.

No, but there are people out there who have used it successfully without
trouble.

Rather than
fixing the problems, subsequent versions of Publisher just get worse.

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

One thing that has always been implicit with M$ MS.

software is the
ability to upgrade if you are willing to spend the money.

That option is available with almost all commercial software that is still
being produced by a manufacturer who are still in business.

But even
the pundits in here recommend sticking with Publisher 2000 if you are
doing a website.

Your argumentative logic is making jumps I can't keep up with. You can
upgrade, or you can stick with your current version. Those are always the
choices. Before upgrading, it's always advisable to check out what other
people have to say about the product.

To add insult to injury, one cannot easily graduate
from Publisher to FrontPage (though there are reportedly improvements
in FP 2003 with respect to cleaning up Publisher's nasty html).

I have successfully transferred websites from Publisher to FrontPage.

The
frustration is that there is no easy cure to this problem, even if one
has the time to suffer through a move to FrontPage or Dreamweaver, and
that is maddening.

And the cure to the frustration is to use a screwdriver to drive in a screw.
If you start off hammering the screw in, and try to switch to a screwdriver
half-way through, you're going to get frustrated when the screwdriver
doesn't follow the thread anymore.

There is a law firm wanting to do a class action on this issue (and
some related M$

Is that the term the law firm used?

software issues).

Well, that's very nice.
I wish them the best of luck.

But class action litigation is time
consuming and generally financially rewarding only for the lawyers.

Then don't push it?

I
would not mind seeing M$ suffer a little,

But would you mind seeing MS suffer?

but all I really want is a
way out of the mess I am in.

Then stop arguing over semantics and making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[JL Paules]

Actually it wasn't my choice. It was my mom's choice. You see I was about 8
and accidently said s**t within my's hearing range (which was, and probably
still is, a 5 mile radius). She made me go upstairs and get the bar of soap!
Then I had to sit there for what seemed to be forever (maybe 5 minutes?)
with that damned soap stuck to the back of my teeth.

I guarantee you - she never heard me utter another bad word until long after
I moved out of the house!

 

[Steve Easton]

<snip>
For that matter, M$ never paid a
dividend until quite recently, iirc.
</snip.

What does that have to do with the current argument.??

And fyi dividends are not always the greatest thing.
A company that pays dividends accomplishes two *not necessarily positive* things.
1. Reduces the share price by an amount equal to the dividend.
2. Forces a taxable event upon the shareholder instead of allowing the shareholder to determine the
most advantageous time for a taxable event.

As for your comments about Publisher. It was designed to do what it's name implies and that is
desktop publishing.
MS was nice enough to give it web publishing capability so that the occasional or "Mom and Pop" user
could establish a web presence without having to spend the money for a full blown version of
FrontPage.

If you are serious about your website? then it's time to loose the training wheels and buy a program
that is designed for that purpose.


--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed............
........................with a computer

 

[Ed Bennett]

A small child turns to Ed, and exclaims: "Look! Look! A post from Steve

MS was nice enough to give it web publishing capability so that the
occasional or "Mom and Pop" user could establish a web presence
without having to spend the money for a full blown version of
FrontPage.

I think we have managed to convince analog@ about that, his gripe is with
the fact that the Publisher box oversells the feature.

But if you buy a house that is infested with rats, would you blame the real
estate agent for not telling you? From what I hear, this sort of thing is
common among US real estate agents - they withold all negative information
about the house, and play up any possible positive point.
Maybe I'm exaggerating the potential problem with the house a little. But
you would be looked down upon by many for not having sufficiently
investigated the house before you bought.

 

[Brian Kvalheim - [MS MVP]]

In

If sucess is measured by the stock price, they are certainly far from
their apex. M$ is not the big caharitable giver, it is Bill's
personal foundation (the stockholders might not be too happy if all
their money was being given away). M$ pretty much continues its nasty
business practices; not even AT&T was allowed to keep it up forever.
A better product, running out of luck in antitrust lawsuits, who
knows, but it will happen.

You have not addressed my post.
--
Brian Kvalheim
Microsoft Publisher MVP
http://www.publishermvps.com

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and
confers no rights.

 

[JL Paules]

Actually a rat-infestation problem would have to be disclosed. Now if it was
just one or two ocassional mice, that could be viewed as a different story.
It might be considered an asset.....................Environmentally
friendly?

But even if things are disclosed, it could be buried in the fine print.
Right now I've got a slew of paperwork to review for a re-finance on our
condo tomorrow. I've just been told that we need a check for ~$1100 at
settlement. I thought we were clearing about $500 so now I've got to figure
out what happened to the numbers to change so drastically.

--
JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]




(snip)

 

[Steve Easton]

Bet it has something to do with "points" in anticipation of rising interest rates.

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed............
........................with a computer

Actually a rat-infestation problem would have to be disclosed. Now if it was
just one or two ocassional mice, that could be viewed as a different story.
It might be considered an asset.....................Environmentally
friendly?

But even if things are disclosed, it could be buried in the fine print.
Right now I've got a slew of paperwork to review for a re-finance on our
condo tomorrow. I've just been told that we need a check for ~$1100 at
settlement. I thought we were clearing about $500 so now I've got to figure
out what happened to the numbers to change so drastically.

--
JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]




(snip)

But if you buy a house that is infested with rats, would you blame the real
estate agent for not telling you? From what I hear, this sort of thing is
common among US real estate agents - they withold all negative information
about the house, and play up any possible positive point.
Maybe I'm exaggerating the potential problem with the house a little. But
you would be looked down upon by many for not having sufficiently
investigated the house before you bought.

 

[Steve Easton]

This whole thread reminds me of an old management 101 exercise.

With the current tools at hand job A will take 20 hours. Cost $200
Buying a new tool that costs $50 will let you finish job A in 10 hours.

Is the tool worth the investment.

Tis a "no brainer"

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed............
........................with a computer