Real basic CSS in FP question

[tcarp]

You are so right about FP being much better than the linked Word pages I
inherited. I have to think through whether I want to lock them into any
other app like FP. It's a real poor ($) org.

Tom

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Normal tab is not using the browser engine.

--
==============================================
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==============================================
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[Thomas A. Rowe]

I still use FP2000.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
==============================================
If you feel your current issue is a results of installing
a Service Pack or security update, please contact
Microsoft Product Support Services:
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If the problem can be shown to have been caused by a
security update, then there is usually no charge for the call.
==============================================

 

[Murray]

But you're special... 8)

 

[Trevor L.]

You are so right about FP being much better than the linked Word
pages I inherited. I have to think through whether I want to lock
them into any other app like FP. It's a real poor ($) org.

Tom

I find it interesting that there is discussion about an"FP site".

What is important is the HTML (and CSS and Javascript) code that is written
to the web site, *not* what tool was used to write it.

Sure there are some aspects where FP interacts with the FP Server Extensions
on the web server, but if you are aware of those, then just concentrate on
the code generated.

While no expert myself, I rarely use FP design view.

FP's major strength is in maintaining the code on the web server. With a few
exceptions, "Publish Web" will always update everything that you have
changed on your local web.

The exceptions, for those who are interested, is that when I update my
scripts folder, the updated files don't always get marked as "Conflict" or
"Publish". I have yet to figure out why. However, I use UltraEdit for
editing, which always creates a .bak file for every file saved, so I just
selectively publish those files for which there is a .bak file, and then
delete the .bak files before a full Publish. Requires a bit of manual
intervention, but it ain't too hard.

 

[Windsun]

Redoing the site in FP does not make it into an FP site, it makes into a
standard (mostly) HTML site, which is what it should have been in the first
place.

I redid a site like that a couple of years ago, and luckily was able to load
most pages into Word and strip out all but the text, and then simply
re-paste the text and pictures into standard HTML pages. But it was still
kind of messy to do it.

 

[Ronx]

If you edit the scripts directly - open the script in UltraEdit and
save back to the website, then FP does not know the file has been
edited.
FrontPage uses the meta data stored in the _vti_cnf folders to
determine if a file has been changed. If you edit the file outside
FP, the meta data is not updated.

The best way to use an external editor is to configure that editor in
FP (Tools->Options - Configure Editors), and let FrontPage open the
file using that editor. When the file and the external editor are
closed, the meta data is updated. Any .bak files produced will be
left in the FP temp folder and possibly never deleted, but Steve
Easton's FP Cleaner should get these. ( www.95isalive.com/fixes )

 

[tcarp]

Murray, let me bring this thread back to the CSS subject (I seem to have
caused it to spin off a little.)

The practice I'm doing is using one of the Style Sheets that come with FP
2000 and an exercise in a FP manual I bought some time ago. It uses the
3-column template and the Blueprint Style Sheet (I think). Anyway, part of
the exercise is to add a rule to the sheet and then apply it as a style to a
table cell.

The rule is:
td.sidebar
{
font-size: 10pt;
font-style: italic;
background-color: #FFFFCC
}

When I try to apply the style to the cell it isn't listed (even though the
Style Sheet has been saved). Is there a step I'm missing between adding a
rule to a style sheet and using the rule to apply a style to a table cell?

Thanks (again)

Tom

 

[Murray]

font-size: 10pt;

Trix are for kids, and points are for print. Don't use points on the web.

When I try to apply the style to the cell it isn't listed (even though the
Style Sheet has been saved). Is there a step I'm missing between adding a
rule to a style sheet and using the rule to apply a style to a table cell?

Possibly, and the problem may be the way that class rule is written.

Change it to this -

..sidebar {
font-size: 12px;
font-style: italic;
background-color: #FFFFCC
}

Now you should see it. As written previously, the rule applies strictly to
a <td> tag. In your list of styles you should have seen -

..sidebar

and that's what you would apply to the <td>.

Of course you could always do it manually, e.g.,

<td class="sidebar">

Any way you cut it, either rule will apply - td.sidebar, or .sidebar.

 

[Trevor L.]

If you edit the scripts directly - open the script in UltraEdit and
save back to the website, then FP does not know the file has been
edited.
FrontPage uses the meta data stored in the _vti_cnf folders to
determine if a file has been changed. If you edit the file outside
FP, the meta data is not updated.

The best way to use an external editor is to configure that editor in
FP (Tools->Options - Configure Editors), and let FrontPage open the
file using that editor. When the file and the external editor are
closed, the meta data is updated. Any .bak files produced will be
left in the FP temp folder and possibly never deleted, but Steve
Easton's FP Cleaner should get these. ( www.95isalive.com/fixes )

Ron,
I assume this reply was to my question marked by >>

This is OT to the orginal question, BUT

I find that when I edit in UltraEdit outside *FP*, most of the files in my
root folder are recognised by FP as altered. It doesn't recognise myweb.zip,
which is a .zip of all my code. I think there are some other files without
..html extensions not recognised as well

But files in my scripts folder are sometimes recognised and sometimes not.

I have configured UltraEdit as my FP editor, but when I have used it lately,
I can't find my way back to the main FP page which displays the site, and
has the tabs down the bottom
Normal | Noframes | HTML | Frame Pages HTML | Preview

I'm sure it used to be/should be easy, but I have just forgotten. If I can
find out, I may use UltraEdit inside FP more regularly

 

[tcarp]

Hey, it was a tutorial for FP 2000. Obviously the world has gotten smarter.
Pixel well taken.

I did change it to a class but when I go to cell properties (or table
properties) and go to the Style window none of the classes are available.
Thats what I meant when I asked if there was a step I was missing between
creating the rule in the Style Sheet and having it available when a style is
assigned to a table or cell.

BTW: In all your examples you use two periods not one in the examples. Am I
missing a key learning here. Mine all use only 1 period (remember, I'm using
a tutorial).

Tom

 

[Windsun]

Generally when using CSS for webpages font sizes are best expressed in "em"
or percent, not points. px is also acceptable, but pages scale better for
different resolutions using em or %.

See www.w3c.org

 

[Jim Carlock]

See www.w3c.org

Or www.w3.org (or w3.org) if your lazy like me.

Jim Carlock
Post replies to the newsgroup.

 

[Ronx]

Ron,
I assume this reply was to my question marked by >>

This is OT to the orginal question, BUT

I find that when I edit in UltraEdit outside *FP*, most of the files
in my root folder are recognised by FP as altered. It doesn't
recognise myweb.zip, which is a .zip of all my code. I think there
are some other files without .html extensions not recognised as well

But files in my scripts folder are sometimes recognised and
sometimes not.

I have configured UltraEdit as my FP editor, but when I have used it
lately, I can't find my way back to the main FP page which displays
the site, and has the tabs down the bottom
Normal | Noframes | HTML | Frame Pages HTML | Preview

I'm sure it used to be/should be easy, but I have just forgotten. If
I can find out, I may use UltraEdit inside FP more regularly

When you edit files outside of FrontPage, as you say, sometimes FP
recognises the changes, sometimes not. Being pessimistic about such
things I always assume not - it's safer.
External editors can only deal with one page at a time, so for a
frames site you can edit ONE of the pages in UltraEdit, or the entire
frameset and default pages in FrontPage design view - but not both.
If you have the frameset open in FrontPage and edit one of the default
pages in UltraEdit without going through FP, the result may be the
FrontPage version, not the version you want. And if you do go through
FP - you could still overwrite the UltraEdit version with the open FP
version. If you use external editors, it is best to not open the
frameset or page in FP at the same time.

The tabs Normal | Noframes | etc will only appear when you have the
frameset page open in FrontPage.

I can understand using an external editor for graphics, external CSS,
and external JavaScript, but IMO FP2003 is excellent for HTML.

 

[Murray]

BTW: In all your examples you use two periods not one in the examples. Am

I
missing a key learning here. Mine all use only 1 period (remember, I'm
using
a tutorial).

Dirty glasses. A single period is correct. 8)

I did change it to a class but when I go to cell properties (or table
properties) and go to the Style window none of the classes are available.
Thats what I meant when I asked if there was a step I was missing between
creating the rule in the Style Sheet and having it available when a style
is
assigned to a table or cell.

Hmm - I can't reproduce this. Can you devise a set of steps that will show
me exactly what you are doing?

 

[tcarp]

Hmm - I can't reproduce this. Can you devise a set of steps that will show

me exactly what you are doing?

I start with a new web site and new web page. On it I put some text at the
top followed by a 3-column table, and enter some text in each column.

I then create a new style sheet using the Blueprint on that comes with FP
2000 as the basis. I enter a couple rules (remember, these are coming from a
tutorial out of a book I have called "MSFT FrontPage 2000 Bible").

These are examples of some of the added rules:

td.sidebar
{
font-size: 10pt;
font-style: italic;
background-color: #FFFFCC
}
..headline
{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 7.5pt;
color: #FF0000;
margin-bottom: 14pt;
font-weight: bold
}

I save the style sheet and the web page (in fact I close the application
completely just in case something I don't understand didn't get updated).
Although it may not be relevant, keep in mind that I'm using Notepad to
change the style sheet because of the bug in FP2000).

I then apply the class (in this case .headline) to some of the text by using
the style pull down menu and things go fine. But, when I select a cell in
the table, select cell properties, select the style button, and look at the
pull down for class it's empty.

I'll go back through the tutorial in detail this morning. It appears that
just adding the rule directly to the style sheet is not sufficient, at least
for using the style for table cells.

Tom

 

[Trevor L.]

Ron,

What is your recommendation ?

1. Continue using UltraEdit with FP not open?
When I do this, the .bak files appear when I open FP and use Publish Web.
I then know which ones to publish - i.e. those which have a corresponding
..bak file

2. Edit my html files inside FP but using UltraEdit
My problem with this is that when I close UltraEdit from here, FrontPage
closes.
I can't find my way back from here to the view you described:
"The tabs Normal | Noframes | etc will only appear when you have the
frameset page open in FrontPage."
Is there something absolutely fundamental that I am missing or have
forgotten (i.e. how to edit in FP but still be able to return to the
frameset page)?

 

[Stefan B Rusynko]

Did you apply the style sheet to the html page (Format Style Sheet links)

--

_____________________________________________
SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
"Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
http://www.frontpagemvps.com/FrontPageNewsGroups/tabid/53/Default.aspx
_____________________________________________


|> Hmm - I can't reproduce this. Can you devise a set of steps that will show
| > me exactly what you are doing?
|
| I start with a new web site and new web page. On it I put some text at the
| top followed by a 3-column table, and enter some text in each column.
|
| I then create a new style sheet using the Blueprint on that comes with FP
| 2000 as the basis. I enter a couple rules (remember, these are coming from a
| tutorial out of a book I have called "MSFT FrontPage 2000 Bible").
|
| These are examples of some of the added rules:
|
| td.sidebar
| {
| font-size: 10pt;
| font-style: italic;
| background-color: #FFFFCC
| }
| .headline
| {
| font-family: Verdana;
| font-size: 7.5pt;
| color: #FF0000;
| margin-bottom: 14pt;
| font-weight: bold
| }
|
| I save the style sheet and the web page (in fact I close the application
| completely just in case something I don't understand didn't get updated).
| Although it may not be relevant, keep in mind that I'm using Notepad to
| change the style sheet because of the bug in FP2000).
|
| I then apply the class (in this case .headline) to some of the text by using
| the style pull down menu and things go fine. But, when I select a cell in
| the table, select cell properties, select the style button, and look at the
| pull down for class it's empty.
|
| I'll go back through the tutorial in detail this morning. It appears that
| just adding the rule directly to the style sheet is not sufficient, at least
| for using the style for table cells.
|
| Tom
|
| "Murray" wrote:
|
| > > BTW: In all your examples you use two periods not one in the examples. Am
| > > I
| > > missing a key learning here. Mine all use only 1 period (remember, I'm
| > > using
| > > a tutorial).
| >
| > Dirty glasses. A single period is correct. 8)
| >
| > > I did change it to a class but when I go to cell properties (or table
| > > properties) and go to the Style window none of the classes are available.
| > > Thats what I meant when I asked if there was a step I was missing between
| > > creating the rule in the Style Sheet and having it available when a style
| > > is
| > > assigned to a table or cell.
| >
| > Hmm - I can't reproduce this. Can you devise a set of steps that will show
| > me exactly what you are doing?
| >
| > --
| > Murray
| > --------------
| > MVP FrontPage
| >
| >
| >

 

[Ronx]

Inline

--
Ron Symonds - Microsoft MVP (FrontPage)
Reply only to group - emails will be deleted unread.
FrontPage Support: http://www.frontpagemvps.com/

Ron,

What is your recommendation ?

1. Continue using UltraEdit with FP not open?
When I do this, the .bak files appear when I open FP and use Publish
Web.
I then know which ones to publish - i.e. those which have a
corresponding .bak file

My recommendation is to use FrontPage to edit your pages, and
UltraEdit for external .js files, through FrontPage - rightclick on
the .js file, then use Open With and choose UltraEdit.

2. Edit my html files inside FP but using UltraEdit

See above

My problem with this is that when I close UltraEdit from here,
FrontPage closes.

I use TextPad to edit Perl scripts through FrontPage - never had a
problem when opening (or closing) them as described above.
IMO, closing UltraEdit should not close FrontPage. I have never seen
that behaviour with any external editor (PSP, Irfanview, TextPad,
Notepad, Access, Excel... the list I have used goes on)

I can't find my way back from here to the view you described:
"The tabs Normal | Noframes | etc will only appear when you have
the
frameset page open in FrontPage."
Is there something absolutely fundamental that I am missing or have
forgotten (i.e. how to edit in FP but still be able to return to the
frameset page)?

In folder view doubleclick on index.htm(l)
Your frameset page will open with those tags showing, ready to edit
(in Design view) the default pages that load with the frameset.

To edit the code in one of the default pages, right click the frame
and "Open in new window". Previous versions of FP would switch all
displayed pages to code view, but previous versions could not display
split view. The tags on FP2000 are:
Normal | No Frames | HTML | Frames Page HTML | Preview
FP2003 has replaced HTML with split view.

To edit another page, doubleclick that page. It will not open in the
frameset.
To view pages in the frameset, use Preview in Browser.

 

[tcarp]

Yup, the link is there (I even checked the HTML code to confirm.)

Here's the procedure that seems to work but, given it's complexity, it can't
be right.

To be able to get a cell to pick up the class from a linked style sheet, I
have to go into the cell, Format>Style, define the class (.sidebar, which is
already in the linked style sheet). I can then put the cursor in the cell,
right click to get Cell Properties, go to the Style button, and now .sidebar
shows up. When I apply it, the cell picks up the .sidebar rule in the Style
Sheet.

The pain here is that I have to do that to every page.

It's as if putting the rule in the Style Sheet is insufficient to make it
available for assignment to a cell properties. In contrast, the rules are
available in the Style pull-down menu (when applied to text selections).

Tom

Did you apply the style sheet to the html page (Format Style Sheet links)

--

_____________________________________________
SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
"Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
http://www.frontpagemvps.com/FrontPageNewsGroups/tabid/53/Default.aspx
_____________________________________________


|> Hmm - I can't reproduce this. Can you devise a set of steps that will show
| > me exactly what you are doing?
|
| I start with a new web site and new web page. On it I put some text at the
| top followed by a 3-column table, and enter some text in each column.
|
| I then create a new style sheet using the Blueprint on that comes with FP
| 2000 as the basis. I enter a couple rules (remember, these are coming from a
| tutorial out of a book I have called "MSFT FrontPage 2000 Bible").
|
| These are examples of some of the added rules:
|
| td.sidebar
| {
| font-size: 10pt;
| font-style: italic;
| background-color: #FFFFCC
| }
| .headline
| {
| font-family: Verdana;
| font-size: 7.5pt;
| color: #FF0000;
| margin-bottom: 14pt;
| font-weight: bold
| }
|
| I save the style sheet and the web page (in fact I close the application
| completely just in case something I don't understand didn't get updated).
| Although it may not be relevant, keep in mind that I'm using Notepad to
| change the style sheet because of the bug in FP2000).
|
| I then apply the class (in this case .headline) to some of the text by using
| the style pull down menu and things go fine. But, when I select a cell in
| the table, select cell properties, select the style button, and look at the
| pull down for class it's empty.
|
| I'll go back through the tutorial in detail this morning. It appears that
| just adding the rule directly to the style sheet is not sufficient, at least
| for using the style for table cells.
|
| Tom
|
| "Murray" wrote:
|
| > > BTW: In all your examples you use two periods not one in the examples. Am
| > > I
| > > missing a key learning here. Mine all use only 1 period (remember, I'm
| > > using
| > > a tutorial).
| >
| > Dirty glasses. A single period is correct. 8)
| >
| > > I did change it to a class but when I go to cell properties (or table
| > > properties) and go to the Style window none of the classes are available.
| > > Thats what I meant when I asked if there was a step I was missing between
| > > creating the rule in the Style Sheet and having it available when a style
| > > is
| > > assigned to a table or cell.
| >
| > Hmm - I can't reproduce this. Can you devise a set of steps that will show
| > me exactly what you are doing?
| >
| > --
| > Murray
| > --------------
| > MVP FrontPage
| >
| >
| >