section breaks causing multiple pdfs

N

nsmcc

Drat! I totally forgot to mention that I was messing around with the
first section break that was giving me trouble (there were three in the
first portion of the document that did not), checking all the
formatting I could, and looking for an extra page break, etc.
Now the document breaks *AT DIFFERENT SPOTS* than before.
The original trouble spot, between page 11 and 12, no longer breaks,
but all of a sudden the document breaks at page 6. Which section break
I did not even mess with, as far as I know.
Fascinating.
 
E

Elliott Roper

nsmcc said:
Drat! I totally forgot to mention that I was messing around with the
first section break that was giving me trouble (there were three in the
first portion of the document that did not), checking all the
formatting I could, and looking for an extra page break, etc.
Now the document breaks *AT DIFFERENT SPOTS* than before.
The original trouble spot, between page 11 and 12, no longer breaks,
but all of a sudden the document breaks at page 6. Which section break
I did not even mess with, as far as I know.
Fascinating.

Yeah, we did hang a bit of fun off the back of your query didn't we?

You seem to have got to the point where you can see that section breaks
are quite useful, but rather fragile.

You might find that strictly observing styles and avoiding touching any
margin settings for any reason might let your document last longer
before the PDFs print in fragments. But then again, you might not.

I have got to the next stage where the PDF stitcher I use is so
painless that I cease to worry. I use PDF a lot when exchanging docs by
mail with colleagues. It is the only way they get to see what it was
like before Word repaginates it for their computer. That way I can have
a phone conversation about the "second paragraph on page 233" without
too much hilarity.

The other use I have for the stitcher is when producing two-up double
sided booklets on my single-sider laser printer. (A feeble attempt to
save the planet, pine forests, time and money) Word makes a royal mess
of those when section breaks intrude. My workflow is to produce the doc
in Word, print to postscript with OS X (I'm getting in another dig at
Word's idiotic behavior of printing low-res previews of eps diagrams to
PDF and leaving the vecor art on the cutting room floor), convert the
Postscript to PDF in Preview for each of the fragments. Stitch the PDFs
togather with PDFLab, hand the resulting file to Cheapimposter, which
manages the imposition tasks of working out which pages are on the back
of which other ones, allowing for gutters, scaling the pages and stuff.
It gives me two PDFs, one even pages, one odds reversed, which I print
with a little shove-the-output-back-in-the-in-tray dance in between.

My point in telling you this is twofold. First to say it is actually
quite easy to do all this. The results are OK, so you don't need to
feel foolish as you do it. Well, at least you know you have foolish
company.

The second, is in case those who look after Word are visiting.

Here comes a rant.

Why Oh Why do you force all this on users? Surely PDF production with
section breaks and eps illustrations and at least 2-up imposition is
among the *primary* tasks of a word processor in the internet age.
Surely an option to lock the pagination on e-mailed Word documents is
seen as worthwhile?

Yet we have gone through two or three versions of Word where this is
getting worse, not better. Instead we get more and more silly childish
clip art, and an increasing fragility with respect to document margins
and printing services. The moment anyone sees Word clip-art in a
document, is the moment they think "Bozo!". Leave it out and
concentrate on word processing. Insert picture from file without
messing it up is all the graphics anyone needs, but Word can't even do
that without introducing massive cross-platform fragility.

Blaming it on Apple's print services or Quicktime is simply not an
option. Not when you are the only one out of step.

I really hate having to optically reduce my fonts when going 2-up, yet
there is no other way I can do it. For proper finished work I end up
pouring the text into InDesign. Every time I do that, I ask myself why
I bother with Word at all. I should be able to do 2-up straight from
Word but there is no way to do 2-up without optical reduction.

So how about it? A little less time on ribbons for thwarting the Apple
Human Interface Guidelines, a lot less time on clip art, and a bit of
effort in getting the bugs out of PDF and margins and getting section
breaks working as well as they did in Word 5.1a?

Happy now Clive? Normal service has been resumed.
 
E

Elliott Roper

John McGhie [MVP - Word said:
Actually, no, it isn't...

Look up the StyleRef field in the Word Help.

Use a particular style for the paragraph you want to appear in the header.
The StyleRef field will copy the text of the latest paragraph of that style
into the current header: you can thus use only one section break for a whole
book.

Regrettably, depending on how lucky you get, Acrobat may see that as a
"change" and throw a new job anyway.

That's what it's doing, by the way: it's interpreting a call for "new paper"
as a call for a "new job". It doesn't commit that "particular" crime on the
PC...

A section break is not a single character in Word. It's not *even* a
character. It's a Property Container; a "bucket" of settings and
measurements (potentially, several hundred of them). One of the
specifications is whether to start a new page, another determines whether to
use different paper stock, and a third determines whether to begin a new
print job. Acrobat misinterprets that last one on the Mac.

And so does Preview.app. Isn't it great being the only one in step?
 
P

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T.

John said:
Yeah, OK, I will concede that *everyone* complains about SOME aspect of
Acrobat :)


But its inability to properly handle section breaks is evident only in Mac
Word :)
-------------------------snip-------------------------
If That's so where's the problem? Is t they way print Drivers are set up
for Mac. Or is it a code difference in Word Mac?

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
P

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T.

nsmcc said:
OP here. Thank you all for your time. I'm glad to have provided you a
forum for good-natured, intellectual ribbing. I've been hitting the
bottle myself this week, mourning over my poor broken document.
On the topic at hand: in the past I have used page breaks with no
issue. Thus adding extra blank paragraphs would not be necessary.
This was my first foray into section breaks, because I wanted to have
different headers and this appears to be the only way to do this in
Word.
Ah well. I guess I'll be downloading some free stitch-ware.
Thank you to all who ventured into the Adobe user group to look around
there for more info--I really appreciate it, even though the net result
seems to be inconclusive.
Best regards,
Nora
If you have Acrobat Standard or Pro,
Open first part of your document.
go to Documents menu and choose add pages
choose second part of document and chhose to add to end. Make sure your
at end of last page in the original.

Then go to end of last page you added and repeat process, as many times
as needed.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
P

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T.

Elliott said:
John McGhie [MVP - Word said:
Actually, no, it isn't...

Look up the StyleRef field in the Word Help.

Use a particular style for the paragraph you want to appear in the header.
The StyleRef field will copy the text of the latest paragraph of that style
into the current header: you can thus use only one section break for a whole
book.

Regrettably, depending on how lucky you get, Acrobat may see that as a
"change" and throw a new job anyway.

That's what it's doing, by the way: it's interpreting a call for "new paper"
as a call for a "new job". It doesn't commit that "particular" crime on the
PC...

A section break is not a single character in Word. It's not *even* a
character. It's a Property Container; a "bucket" of settings and
measurements (potentially, several hundred of them). One of the
specifications is whether to start a new page, another determines whether to
use different paper stock, and a third determines whether to begin a new
print job. Acrobat misinterprets that last one on the Mac.

And so does Preview.app. Isn't it great being the only one in step?
Sounds like if your the only one instep, Your actually out of step
with the rest of the world ;-)

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
E

Elliott Roper

John McGhie [MVP - Word said:
It's probably not Word:Mac. The PC should be running exactly the same code
for this operation, and it doesn't have the problem.

The information is being presented to the print routine: under some
circumstances it fails to interpret it correctly. It would be interesting
to know whether this problem ever shows up during output to "paper". It
would be difficult to tell if it did: either way, the printer would produce
a new sheet of paper.

You can demonstrate that output to paper fails by printing evens and
odds separately. It makes a royal mess of two pass double sided
printing. (see below)
You can also watch the progress window page counts go through a
sequence for each of the section sequences that would have split PDFs.
The multiple documents problem doesn't happen all the time: when it does
happen, it is most likely to occur when something persuades the print
routine that a change in page layout has occurred.

I agree. Just now, to test the assertion above I had to go to some
lengths to get it to fail. Simply changing margins on a section, which
is usually guaranteed to split the print was not enough. In the end, I
had to set one section to landscape to intitiate a pdf break. Then when
I set that section back to portrait, it still broke. I then printed it
evens reverse. I got pages 8 6 4 2 13 11 in that order. The PDF split 9
pages then 5, and I was doing odd page section starts.

To answer your other question to Phillip, OmniGraffle Pro has no
trouble printing a document with multiple sections (aka canvases),
intermixing portrait and landscape to a single PDF.

If anyone wants a copy of the failing test document, just tell me where
to mail it.
 
P

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T.

Most of the ahh.... Word replacements (just testing them) WordPerfect
for Mac (this is a long standing problem between Office, and Acrobat I
still have Acrobat e.5.0.5 on OS9 and Office 2001). Appleworks I
believe does (Though MSWorks was loosely based on Appleworks).

Remember there aren't many WP for the Mac. All the competition has been
scared off by the 900 pound gorilla. Only some open source apps are
attempting to get into the Market.

NeoOffice, Nisus Writer/Express, AbiWord, etc.
In the interests of correctly analysing this problem, Phillip, would you
please post a list of all the applications you know of that have section
breaks in their documents?


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
P

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T.

John said:
Thanks Elliott:



Thanks heaps for going to the trouble of proving it -- I didn't know.


Without knowing zip about OmniGraffle, I suspect it's canvases are a simpler
object than a Word section break. There's potentially two or three hundred
elements in a Word section break (I've never had the patience to count
them). A Section Break contains most of the settings one can make in a
document.

Cheers
If I create a document with section Breaks it has to do more with
chapters say in my Bylaws and working Rules rather than doing some
esoteric. I don't need to swap from Portrait to landscape (though I
could see times where it might be effective. I had this problem years
ago and so I just used Returns or line feed to create the new sections.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
E

Elliott Roper

CE.T. said:
If I create a document with section Breaks it has to do more with
chapters say in my Bylaws and working Rules rather than doing some
esoteric. I don't need to swap from Portrait to landscape (though I
could see times where it might be effective. I had this problem years
ago and so I just used Returns or line feed to create the new sections.

Just to be clear about it. I was saying that on this occasion I found
it hard to create breaks between sections that would cause the document
to print to PDF in fragments. My test doc was creating new sections
starting at odd pages at chapter boundaries, and it worked very well
without splitting the printed PDFs, even though I was doing lots of
things that were supposed to break it, like changing margins, fooling
with the headers and footers and so on. It was good until I swapped
from portrait to landscape orientation using the page set-up inside the
format document panel. It then stayed bad after I put the landscape
section back to portrait.

For a moment it looked like the recent update had fixed the problem.

If your Word is completely up-to-date, it would be useful to know if
the splitting is still as bad as you remember. Maybe they have fixed a
little bit of it.
 
N

nsmcc

Just to back Elliott up, I watched my progress window while printing my
document onto paper and yes, in fact, three separate progress windows
popped up one after the other. So the problem is not just with the
print-to-PDF option.

I'm off to download that stitcher now. Much as I'd love to get a new
version of Word just to investigate, today I need the cheaper
approach...
 
E

Elliott Roper

nsmcc said:
Just to back Elliott up, I watched my progress window while printing my
document onto paper and yes, in fact, three separate progress windows
popped up one after the other. So the problem is not just with the
print-to-PDF option.

I'm off to download that stitcher now. Much as I'd love to get a new
version of Word just to investigate, today I need the cheaper
approach...

Thanks for staying with this Nora. It's amazing what a McGhie with a
full head of steam can accomplish.

If you need any help with the stitcheroonie, just ask here.
 
C

CyberTaz

On 6/27/06 2:09 PM, in article
(e-mail address removed), "nsmcc"

I'm off to download that stitcher now. Much as I'd love to get a new
version of Word just to investigate, today I need the cheaper
approach...
In your original post you indicated you were using 2004 which is the newest
version available... That being the case, the update is available free of
cost at Mactopia.com - I believe that is what was being referenced.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
 
J

John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]

Hi Phillip:

WordPerfect has no section breaks, I know the product well.

AppleWorks: no Section Breaks.

I don't know about the other three: I have no experience with them. I would
suggest that they may have if they are running in Word .doc format. If all
they are doing is reading and writing .doc format, they probably don't.

A "Section Break" is a very specific and complex data structure. The fact
that an application will enable you to change paper size or orientation does
not mean the internal document structure contains "section breaks".

If an application exposes an "Object Model" and supports "Inheritance"
between sections, then it's likely it has section breaks or something very
similar. But it's a rare and expensive way to build an application: you
would need a good commercial reason to build an app that way: Microsoft had
a few, but these would not necessarily apply to the other vendors.

Cheers

Most of the ahh.... Word replacements (just testing them) WordPerfect
for Mac (this is a long standing problem between Office, and Acrobat I
still have Acrobat e.5.0.5 on OS9 and Office 2001). Appleworks I
believe does (Though MSWorks was loosely based on Appleworks).

Remember there aren't many WP for the Mac. All the competition has been
scared off by the 900 pound gorilla. Only some open source apps are
attempting to get into the Market.

NeoOffice, Nisus Writer/Express, AbiWord, etc.

--

Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie <[email protected]>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410
 
P

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T.

yes the last three are actually running in Word Doc format not just
reading and converting. curious though about the Appleworks/MS Works.
Weren't they the foundation for Office? best I can remember from my Use
with my SE/30 Appleworks was originally a program that The Steve's
bought (yes I said Bought) for use on Apple II computers. Then MS copied
it adding additional Tweaks (one being a Internet application). Then
MS located and Purchased Word, Excel, and PowerPoint tweaked code and
then package in Office or, offered them separately (as word, Excel, and
PowerPoint) I haven't used them in a while, best I can remember they had
section and page Breaks though. Since your the expert I defer to your
knowledge though. ;-)
Hi Phillip:

WordPerfect has no section breaks, I know the product well.

AppleWorks: no Section Breaks.

I don't know about the other three: I have no experience with them. I would
suggest that they may have if they are running in Word .doc format. If all
they are doing is reading and writing .doc format, they probably don't.

A "Section Break" is a very specific and complex data structure. The fact
that an application will enable you to change paper size or orientation does
not mean the internal document structure contains "section breaks".

If an application exposes an "Object Model" and supports "Inheritance"
between sections, then it's likely it has section breaks or something very
similar. But it's a rare and expensive way to build an application: you
would need a good commercial reason to build an app that way: Microsoft had
a few, but these would not necessarily apply to the other vendors.

Cheers


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
C

Chris Ridd

yes the last three are actually running in Word Doc format not just
reading and converting. curious though about the Appleworks/MS Works.
Weren't they the foundation for Office? best I can remember from my Use
with my SE/30 Appleworks was originally a program that The Steve's
bought (yes I
said Bought) for use on Apple II computers. Then MS copied it adding
additional Tweaks (one being a Internet application). Then MS located
and

I think you're a bit confused :)

There's a good history of AppleWorks here
<http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bob/clarisworks.php> which mentions one
of their original competitors was MS Works - so they could not have
copied AppleWorks.

You might find some more historical info by searching the Wikipedia.

Cheers,

Chris
 
P

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T.

The page given refers to Appleworks Clarisworks.

Originally Appleworks was created for Apple II computers, Primarily it
originally was sold through educational outlets As most Apple II's were
for the most part placed in school systems. At some point It was offered
for sale by Apple and apple software engineers worked on it Along with
The Apple II system.

I worked for a school system during the time of Apple II period. At
that time only Epson and IBM were selling computers in any quantity
other than Apple. Epson had there version of DOS, and so Did IBM.
Neither was called MS-DOS the first go round (Equity ! computer did not
use MS DOS only the Equity Lines and later used MS-DOS 3.0 and up. Most
Computer used DOS command line and the Software of Choice was
WordPerfect and Lotus123. Word and Excel simply wasn't around. Only when
Windows 3.0.3 did Word, Excel come out, and Ms-Works. About the same
time MS-Works came out for Mac WE were already using SE/30's when it
came out. There was Appleworks for Mac which came out first but was like
the Apple II version in that it had no internet connection utility.
MS-Works did. The fascinating thing about appleworks and Ms works was
except for the internet facility they were exact clones of each other.
feature for feature menu placement for menu placement and so on. I know
because I at one time had both. Since Appleworks Mac came out so long
ago I have long since discard the program because the 400K disk can be
read by any modern Mac OS. OS6.5 was the last version that could. Apple
came out with Clarisworks Actually the Claris Company which was a
spin-off company from Apple added internet capability to compete with
MS-Works. They then came out with MacWrite and MacWrite Pro. They
discontinued MacWrite Pro when Word go a foothold MacWrite pro was
originally a better program than Word. My first initiation into Word was
word 6.0x and Excel 5.0.x. And even though Had gawd awful PC Interface
to this day I believe is the best Word and Excel, ever designed. I could
do things in Word 6.0.1 that I have never figured out how to do in
Office2001 and 2004.

One for example is I could write a Document do a particular Paragraph in
a certain style. then click on the Paragraph mark Icon which allows you
to see spaces as dot, and paragraph marks. But would also allow you to
see little black boxes at the beginning of a paragraph. I could
double-click on a box that had a particular style I wanted to
intersperse through the document; then go to the next box click on it
and presto chango that paragraph took on on that copied style. I've yet
to duplicate that feature.

Actually during that day. I used WordPerfect. One feature it had that I
begged MS to add was

In WordPerfect if you wanted to create an envelope just go to envelope
printing type in formation once. An internal Database was created
complete with customized font style, even envelope size and of course
zip code and other codes. once created and used it was saved to this
internal database. You could even print multiple envelopes of different
people. And at the time the printer was easier to set up. Never could
get MS to add this and still long for it.

Chris said:
I think you're a bit confused :)

There's a good history of AppleWorks here
<http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bob/clarisworks.php> which mentions one of
their original competitors was MS Works - so they could not have copied
AppleWorks.

You might find some more historical info by searching the Wikipedia.

Cheers,

Chris


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 

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