Setting single line spacing in word 2008

L

Luis Ortega

I can't seem to get Word 2008 to set a simple single space between lines.
The default seems to be double spacing, even though the line spacing is
set to single space.
The normal setting in the formatting options creates double spaces
between lines, and the only way to set a single line space is to choose
no spacing from the options, but then it tends to revert back to normal
and creates a double space between lines.
When I start a new document, the format is set to normal which produces
a double space between lines.
Is there some way to make it behave and always create a single space
between lines as the default?
It has become a real pain the the ass. I never had this issue with other
versions of Word on Macs or PCs.
 
S

seanfitz225

In the styles section of the formatting palette, click on the arrow on
the right of "Normal," and then choose modify style. On the lower left
corner, choose paragraph, and in spacing, set "after" to be 0. close
the paragraph dialog box, and click on add to template, now "ok" it.
This should do the trick.
 
K

kkd1411

I agree. What a dumb feature. I can't type a simple address on a cover letter. Single spacing means single spaces. If i want a space between paragraphs I can hit enter. GRRR. So frustrating. Thank you so much seanfitz225 for helping us solve this problem.

Is there anyway to make it permanent so I I don't have to do that each time i open a new doc?
 
M

MC

CyberTaz said:
Hi _____-

If you insist on changing it rather than coming to understand it and using
it effectively see item #3 instructions on this page;

http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Word2008Issues.html#DoubleSpacing

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

Do I detect a note of disapproval?

Look, this thing is an annoyance. It was foisted on users without a
single word of What's New, no one who is used to the old way doing it
likes it -- no matter how much sense it might make on a theoretical
plane -- and without digging into the settings there is no way of OPTING
for or against it. It should be a Preference and it should be explained.

I have another program (Movie Magic Screenwriter 2000) that defaults to
this way, so I am used to it and I DO UNDERSTAND IT, but I do not like
it -- and judging by the traffic in here, not many others like it
either.

If MS would offer a simple choice in prefs everybody (including those
who share your opinion) would be happier than appear to be now.
 
P

Phillip Jones

MC said:
Do I detect a note of disapproval?

Look, this thing is an annoyance. It was foisted on users without a
single word of What's New, no one who is used to the old way doing it
likes it -- no matter how much sense it might make on a theoretical
plane -- and without digging into the settings there is no way of OPTING
for or against it. It should be a Preference and it should be explained.

I have another program (Movie Magic Screenwriter 2000) that defaults to
this way, so I am used to it and I DO UNDERSTAND IT, but I do not like
it -- and judging by the traffic in here, not many others like it
either.

If MS would offer a simple choice in prefs everybody (including those
who share your opinion) would be happier than appear to be now.


Its not even correct! when I learned to write Letters in school
*handwritten or typed* there was no space between Paragraphs.

The only place it warranted is Bylaws Working Rules in an Association or
Company or legal documents.

But just for Plain business, or even personal its not. Not once have I
ever inserted an additional space between Paragraphs expect in my
Association's Bylaws, Working Rules, and Code of Ethics. Just documents
between you or I no spaces between paragraphs. Now a 5 Character indent
at start of each Paragraph is normal.

I space here in emails and newsgroups because everything tends to run
together.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
C

CyberTaz

Hi MC -

Do I detect a note of disapproval?

No disapproval at all... If there were I'd not have provided the link &
would have attempted to convince the OP otherwise:) If they're interested
in learning more I'm hoping they will ask.
Look, this thing is an annoyance. It was foisted on users without a
single word of What's New,

You're absolutely correct, but what you don't know is that I was one of the
first to hammer MS on that very point when they launched 2007, pleaded with
MacBU to not to do the same with 2008 & got in their face when they did.
no one who is used to the old way doing it
likes it -- no matter how much sense it might make on a theoretical
plane

"No one"? Isn't that a bit exaggerated? Perhaps 'None of the ~20 users x ~20
various forums...' might be a closer approximation.
-- and without digging into the settings there is no way of OPTING
for or against it.

Modifying a Style is hardly the same as "digging into the settings" -
especially for anyone who needs a pro caliber word processor in the first
place. I hardly think it to be presumptuous to suggest that someone learn
the suggested means of employing *any* tool they intend to use.
It should be a Preference and it should be explained.

Again, no argument - in fact, I agree, and that's a part of what we're
trying to do here.
I have another program (Movie Magic Screenwriter 2000) that defaults to
this way, so I am used to it and I DO UNDERSTAND IT, but I do not like
it -- and judging by the traffic in here, not many others like it
either.

But at least you've made an informed decision on the matter... Do you not
think it fair that others be afforded the opportunity to do the same?
If MS would offer a simple choice in prefs everybody (including those
who share your opinion) would be happier than appear to be now.

Once again, I agree in principle, but Space Before/After Paragraphs is *not*
a Preference, it's a formatting attribute:) Why is it any easier to go to
Word> Preferences> Whatever & change the status of a checkbox or option
button than it is to got to Format> Style> Paragraph & change the 10 pts
After to 0 - or do it through the Formatting Palette? I'd also
[respectfully] ask that you consider issues from a perspective other than
your own...

If the change had *not* been made those who do prefer to create docs based
on typesetting specs rather than hammering them out based on the limitations
imposed by antiquated mechanical technology and are finding it increasingly
more difficult to revise & control docs littered with empty paragraphs would
be the ones still having to make the adjustments.

There's no doubt that the issue has perplexed quite a few people, but what
about the hundreds of thousands of other users who haven't complained?

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
 
C

CyberTaz

Hi Phillip -

As I understand it, it isn't a matter of "correct" or "incorrect", it's a
matter of convention. The composition you (and I) were taught as kids
pertained to handwritten work. The accepted U.S. English convention has
traditionally been indentation to indicate separation between paragraphs,
while other English variants & other languages tend toward spacing.

Space between paragraphs is equally acceptable & is preferred in many
professional environments for typeset or printed work. The determining
factor relates to readability. All sources I've consulted agree that
separation of some some sort between paragraphs is necessary to provide the
reader with proper distinction between one paragraph & the next as well as
enhancing readability of the document. The most stringent *rule* I've seen
is that using both spacing *and* indentation is improper.

If you know of any authoritative references on the subject I'd appreciate
knowing what they are. I've checked Strunk, Columbia, Bartleby's and every
other source I know of. Perhaps if Daiya Mitchell tunes in on this
discussion she may have some insights.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Whatever Your Name Is...

(You've been in here long enough by now to add your name, especially when
ticking us off :) )

Look, this thing is an annoyance. It was foisted on users

Those of us used to producing text for publication would mutter something
about "no, it was foisted on people who have so far avoided becoming users,
in a pathetic attempt to help them learn to use Word easily."

Really! Documents are a hell of a lot easier to create and much more stable
in service if you include leading on your styles.

Yes, I know how tempting it is to just hit Enter twice when you want some
space. But if you do that, you insert an empty container in the text. A
paragraph is not a carriage return and new line character, it's a container
holding around 1,200 formatting properties. If you insert a "blank
paragraph", Word has to inspect all 1,200 pigeon holes to make sure there is
really no information in there.

Not only does this halve the speed at which it processes text, it leads to a
state of internal confusion that will roughly double the number of crashes
and freezes the user experiences.

Yes, I do agree: It would have been nice if they could have provided that
explanation in the "What's New". But "What's New" is written by Marketing
and approved by Legal.

If Legal had their way, "What's New" would be entirely blank, just in case
someone somewhere could impute the possibility of an error, mistake, or
shortcoming in any previous version of Word that has ever existed.

If Marketing had their way, every statement in "What's New" would begin "In
a major advance over the offerings from our competitors..." and talk only
about the stuff Google can't do.
no one who is used to the old way doing it likes it

Well, yeah, but I am 58 years old. Those of us who grew up on typewriters
are just about to kick the bucket. The real users of the product are a bit
more sophisticated these days :)
If MS would offer a simple choice in prefs everybody (including those
who share your opinion) would be happier than appear to be now.

It does. You may wish to investigate "Format>Style>Modify..." Takes
perhaps five seconds to do it, once only, and all your documents can be
wrong, now and into the future :)

Cheers

--
Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Sydney, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 
M

MC

John McGhie said:
Hi Whatever Your Name Is...

I've I'already revealed that deep, dark secret once in this NG!

Matthew Cope

I post in a number of groups and my news reading software is set under
my MC sig -- and I'm not about to change for one group. Sorry.
(You've been in here long enough by now to add your name, especially when
ticking us off :) )

Ticking "us" off? Whoever "you" are!!!
Those of us used to producing text for publication would mutter something
about "no, it was foisted on people who have so far avoided becoming users,
in a pathetic attempt to help them learn to use Word easily."

Really! Documents are a hell of a lot easier to create and much more stable
in service if you include leading on your styles.

Yes, I know how tempting it is to just hit Enter twice when you want some
space.

As with so many matters computational it's also a matter of what you're
used to. I write for a living and have never taken a typing lesson in my
life -- much to my regret, because it's far too late to undo my bad
habits and adopt good ones.
But if you do that, you insert an empty container in the text. A
paragraph is not a carriage return and new line character, it's a container
holding around 1,200 formatting properties. If you insert a "blank
paragraph", Word has to inspect all 1,200 pigeon holes to make sure there is
really no information in there.

Not only does this halve the speed at which it processes text, it leads to a
state of internal confusion that will roughly double the number of crashes
and freezes the user experiences.

Now there is a very good reason to adopt a new good habit.

However, most of the documents I work with are batting back and forth
between 3-5 people, most of whom are working in French, in Windows and
with different versions of Word -- and because all their documents are
created in French, and all revisions come back to me in French... welll
it gets complicated at times.

Plus, as it is, I have to default to the .doc file format -- for their
benefit (I know, I know, they should run some patch or other, but they
haven't and they sign the pay cheques), and they all do the double
carriage return -- so who knows what the effect would be of me being the
only one in the chain doing it this way?
Yes, I do agree: It would have been nice if they could have provided that
explanation in the "What's New". But "What's New" is written by Marketing
and approved by Legal.

Now that's scary!
If Legal had their way, "What's New" would be entirely blank, just in case
someone somewhere could impute the possibility of an error, mistake, or
shortcoming in any previous version of Word that has ever existed.

If Marketing had their way, every statement in "What's New" would begin "In
a major advance over the offerings from our competitors..." and talk only
about the stuff Google can't do.


Well, yeah, but I am 58 years old. Those of us who grew up on typewriters
are just about to kick the bucket. The real users of the product are a bit
more sophisticated these days :)

Yeah, well I'm 61 -- and I think software should bend to the user, not
the other way around.
It does. You may wish to investigate "Format>Style>Modify..." Takes
perhaps five seconds to do it, once only, and all your documents can be
wrong, now and into the future :)

Which I did. As soon as I found out how.

But you know? Not everyone is a power user like you, and for *many*
users this sort of thing is an arcane and intimidating mystery.
 
C

CyberTaz

Hey John - perhaps if we old timers started to ardently proclaim the old
technology as being *right* the young pups would exercise their defiance &
insist on the benefits & advantages of the newer technology. Isn't it ironic
that in this world of "gotta have the newest, latest & greatest - ain't your
father's Oldsmobile" mentality some insist on clinging to a kludge devised
by their [great-] grandfathers as a workaround only because it was the best
they could do at the time?

I wonder why the Blackberry, cell phone & iPhone came to be so popular when
rotary dial, transistor radios & 3-ring binders worked so flawlessly???? ;-)

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
 
P

Phillip Jones

CyberTaz said:
Hi MC -



No disapproval at all... If there were I'd not have provided the link &
would have attempted to convince the OP otherwise:) If they're interested
in learning more I'm hoping they will ask.


You're absolutely correct, but what you don't know is that I was one of the
first to hammer MS on that very point when they launched 2007, pleaded with
MacBU to not to do the same with 2008 & got in their face when they did.

Glad someone did.
"No one"? Isn't that a bit exaggerated? Perhaps 'None of the ~20 users x ~20
various forums...' might be a closer approximation.


There are vast numbers of people that don't like it . But unlike you or
me they take what ever is fed to them, stew in their juices and don't
complain , because they know they don't have a Voice. I know I don't
have a Voice. and your ranting to the actual people face to face
probably elicited some one flip you the bird and saying we are doing
anyway whether you like it or not.
Modifying a Style is hardly the same as "digging into the settings" -
especially for anyone who needs a pro caliber word processor in the first
place. I hardly think it to be presumptuous to suggest that someone learn
the suggested means of employing *any* tool they intend to use.

It should be a preference. And 95.99999% of people are not publishing
books. creating war and peace. Just because something has been done the
same way Hundreds of years, does it mean it needs to be changed.
Whomever declared the new rules needs to be hit in the head with 4 by 4.
Again, no argument - in fact, I agree, and that's a part of what we're
trying to do here.

In the program mentioned I can see where you would need it. actors and
actresses learning their lines don't need to Read others line so there
is a need for differentiation.
But at least you've made an informed decision on the matter... Do you not
think it fair that others be afforded the opportunity to do the same?
If MS would offer a simple choice in prefs everybody (including those
who share your opinion) would be happier than appear to be now.

Once again, I agree in principle, but Space Before/After Paragraphs is *not*
a Preference, it's a formatting attribute:) Why is it any easier to go to
Word> Preferences> Whatever & change the status of a checkbox or option
button than it is to got to Format> Style> Paragraph & change the 10 pts
After to 0 - or do it through the Formatting Palette? I'd also
[respectfully] ask that you consider issues from a perspective other than
your own...

If the change had *not* been made those who do prefer to create docs based
on typesetting specs rather than hammering them out based on the limitations
imposed by antiquated mechanical technology and are finding it increasingly
more difficult to revise & control docs littered with empty paragraphs would
be the ones still having to make the adjustments.

That's the very reason for a Preference. If you doing for typesetting of
a Book magazine or Paper. or legal documents; then have it turned on. If
your doing day to day business or non business letter writing have it
turned off.
There's no doubt that the issue has perplexed quite a few people, but what
about the hundreds of thousands of other users who haven't complained?

They don't do it because they have given up doing so . Its a waste of
time. Companies do what they please and to please the BOD and don't give
a rats behind about what customers want.
Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
P

Phillip Jones

John said:
Hi Whatever Your Name Is...

(You've been in here long enough by now to add your name, especially when
ticking us off :) )



Those of us used to producing text for publication would mutter something
about "no, it was foisted on people who have so far avoided becoming users,
in a pathetic attempt to help them learn to use Word easily."

Really! Documents are a hell of a lot easier to create and much more stable
in service if you include leading on your styles.

Yes, I know how tempting it is to just hit Enter twice when you want some
space. But if you do that, you insert an empty container in the text. A
paragraph is not a carriage return and new line character, it's a container
holding around 1,200 formatting properties. If you insert a "blank
paragraph", Word has to inspect all 1,200 pigeon holes to make sure there is
really no information in there.

Not only does this halve the speed at which it processes text, it leads to a
state of internal confusion that will roughly double the number of crashes
and freezes the user experiences.

Yes, I do agree: It would have been nice if they could have provided that
explanation in the "What's New". But "What's New" is written by Marketing
and approved by Legal.

If Legal had their way, "What's New" would be entirely blank, just in case
someone somewhere could impute the possibility of an error, mistake, or
shortcoming in any previous version of Word that has ever existed.

If Marketing had their way, every statement in "What's New" would begin "In
a major advance over the offerings from our competitors..." and talk only
about the stuff Google can't do.


Well, yeah, but I am 58 years old. Those of us who grew up on typewriters
are just about to kick the bucket. The real users of the product are a bit
more sophisticated these days :)

I'm 59 so speak for yourself. ;-) If I was to kick the bucket tomorrow,
would be fine with me!

But I was taught only five character indents in anything but legal
documents, and Books, Magazines, and newspapers. There should be a way
to turn it off without having to go into styles. period!
It does. You may wish to investigate "Format>Style>Modify..." Takes
perhaps five seconds to do it, once only, and all your documents can be
wrong, now and into the future :)

Cheers

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
P

Phillip Jones

MC said:
I've I'already revealed that deep, dark secret once in this NG!

Matthew Cope

I post in a number of groups and my news reading software is set under
my MC sig -- and I'm not about to change for one group. Sorry.

Ticking "us" off? Whoever "you" are!!!

As with so many matters computational it's also a matter of what you're
used to. I write for a living and have never taken a typing lesson in my
life -- much to my regret, because it's far too late to undo my bad
habits and adopt good ones.


Now there is a very good reason to adopt a new good habit.

However, most of the documents I work with are batting back and forth
between 3-5 people, most of whom are working in French, in Windows and
with different versions of Word -- and because all their documents are
created in French, and all revisions come back to me in French... welll
it gets complicated at times.

Plus, as it is, I have to default to the .doc file format -- for their
benefit (I know, I know, they should run some patch or other, but they
haven't and they sign the pay cheques), and they all do the double
carriage return -- so who knows what the effect would be of me being the
only one in the chain doing it this way?


Now that's scary!

Yeah, well I'm 61 -- and I think software should bend to the user, not
the other way around.

Which I did. As soon as I found out how.

But you know? Not everyone is a power user like you, and for *many*
users this sort of thing is an arcane and intimidating mystery.

Amennn! Brother!!!
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
P

Phillip Jones

Hey Taz I still have a Working Transistor AM Radio I bought when I was a
teenager (I'm 59 now). In fact I still have a working AM-FM Tube receive
I purchased in the early 60's to install in a Cabinet. It still works Great.

I don't have a Blackberry Can't afford to buy one and can't afford the
hundred Bucks a month just for the service. In a way I wish I had a
rotary dial Phone so my mother that's almost deaf could hear people on
the telephone. I've been through 5 or 6 of the touch tone phones (the
touch dial wear out and the headset become scratchy.

I still have some stuff filed away in Ring Binders.

I refuse to buy a Apple iPhone . Because they are tied to the sorriest
Cell phone service in our area. You can stand 50 feet from each other
and you'll get a dropped call. The second they consider untying service
to strict AT&T, is the second I will buy one.

I use Apple Computers. I burn CD's and DVD's (not for a Living). I have
two or three Digital Cameras. I have two 35MM SLR Camera.

IF your so heped up about modern Technology why don't you see if you can
get banned the the use of Plain Text in Emails and newsgroups?

I can read text far better that been formatted as HTML. Yet we have old
fogies in the system That agreed upon plain text and bottom post as the
norm back in the day of 150 baud modem and Bulletin boards. and many
news groups stick to something that's 40 years old like glue.
So you have room to talk.
Hey John - perhaps if we old timers started to ardently proclaim the old
technology as being *right* the young pups would exercise their defiance &
insist on the benefits & advantages of the newer technology. Isn't it ironic
that in this world of "gotta have the newest, latest & greatest - ain't your
father's Oldsmobile" mentality some insist on clinging to a kludge devised
by their [great-] grandfathers as a workaround only because it was the best
they could do at the time?

I wonder why the Blackberry, cell phone & iPhone came to be so popular when
rotary dial, transistor radios & 3-ring binders worked so flawlessly???? ;-)

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



Hi Whatever Your Name Is...

(You've been in here long enough by now to add your name, especially when
ticking us off :) )


Those of us used to producing text for publication would mutter something
about "no, it was foisted on people who have so far avoided becoming users,
in a pathetic attempt to help them learn to use Word easily."

Really! Documents are a hell of a lot easier to create and much more stable
in service if you include leading on your styles.

Yes, I know how tempting it is to just hit Enter twice when you want some
space. But if you do that, you insert an empty container in the text. A
paragraph is not a carriage return and new line character, it's a container
holding around 1,200 formatting properties. If you insert a "blank
paragraph", Word has to inspect all 1,200 pigeon holes to make sure there is
really no information in there.

Not only does this halve the speed at which it processes text, it leads to a
state of internal confusion that will roughly double the number of crashes
and freezes the user experiences.

Yes, I do agree: It would have been nice if they could have provided that
explanation in the "What's New". But "What's New" is written by Marketing
and approved by Legal.

If Legal had their way, "What's New" would be entirely blank, just in case
someone somewhere could impute the possibility of an error, mistake, or
shortcoming in any previous version of Word that has ever existed.

If Marketing had their way, every statement in "What's New" would begin "In
a major advance over the offerings from our competitors..." and talk only
about the stuff Google can't do.

Well, yeah, but I am 58 years old. Those of us who grew up on typewriters
are just about to kick the bucket. The real users of the product are a bit
more sophisticated these days :)

It does. You may wish to investigate "Format>Style>Modify..." Takes
perhaps five seconds to do it, once only, and all your documents can be
wrong, now and into the future :)

Cheers

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
C

Clive Huggan

Ho-ho-ho!

Pity I had to come in so late...

Firstly, Matthew, I well remember your revelation some months ago, and
you'll notice I have always used your name once you thus became a "real"
person (made easier by my elder son also having that noble name). And I
have greatly enjoyed your many posts. As for m'learned colleagues not
remembering, well, some have let slip their ages. Maybe, for them, you
could, er, manually add your name... ;-)

I agree with Matthew's comment about the desirability of being able to
select a preference in a more obvious place. Trouble is, I suppose, once you
start with that one I can think of dozens more. Then, impatient people will
complain they can't find it in among the choices. As they do already...

Speaking of impatience, I must confess that I find bombastic,
let-it-all-hang-out-after-milliseconds-of-thought comments a bit trying.
We've had a lot of them here lately. One is the OP's:

"What a dumb feature. I can't type a simple address on a cover letter.
Single spacing means single spaces. If i want a space between paragraphs I
can hit enter".

Surely it isn't too difficult to hold down the Shift key while hitting the
Return key at the end of a line, to force a new line in an address.

But "What a dumb feature" deserves comment.

You can switch it off if you want a typewriter. That's already been
addressed earlier in this thread.

But -- thank goodness -- Word isn't only capable of being used as a Vespa --
it's also very much, and uniquely, a Rolls Royce application, capable of
immensely more than the typewriter that the OP hankers after. If I want to
open up the paragraph leading [OP: = spaces between paragraphs] I can change
the definition of the style for, say, body text paragraphs (a) in that
document or (b) in all documents. Or I can manually add or remove leading to
one paragraph. Most often this is used to condense text back on to a
particular page when a little has flowed over to the next. Try doing that
with double paragraph marks / carriage returns.

Word enables me to do that in seconds or, with macros, less than a second.
Millions of people around the world use this "dumb feature" many times a
day. I've calculated my time savings through using Word well at almost 20
per cent compared with someone who doesn't deign to learn its features. Such
features, more importantly, immensely improve the quality of communication
that comes from the keyboard.

But I suspect the bleating by those like the OP who can't be bothered to
look beyond their noses will bend MacBU the other way before we know it. So
here's some advice: don't bleat here among fellow users: go to the Help menu
and tell the people at Microsoft what you think...

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================


Hey John - perhaps if we old timers started to ardently proclaim the old
technology as being *right* the young pups would exercise their defiance &
insist on the benefits & advantages of the newer technology. Isn't it ironic
that in this world of "gotta have the newest, latest & greatest - ain't your
father's Oldsmobile" mentality some insist on clinging to a kludge devised
by their [great-] grandfathers as a workaround only because it was the best
they could do at the time?

I wonder why the Blackberry, cell phone & iPhone came to be so popular when
rotary dial, transistor radios & 3-ring binders worked so flawlessly???? ;-)

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



Hi Whatever Your Name Is...

(You've been in here long enough by now to add your name, especially when
ticking us off :) )



Those of us used to producing text for publication would mutter something
about "no, it was foisted on people who have so far avoided becoming users,
in a pathetic attempt to help them learn to use Word easily."

Really! Documents are a hell of a lot easier to create and much more stable
in service if you include leading on your styles.

Yes, I know how tempting it is to just hit Enter twice when you want some
space. But if you do that, you insert an empty container in the text. A
paragraph is not a carriage return and new line character, it's a container
holding around 1,200 formatting properties. If you insert a "blank
paragraph", Word has to inspect all 1,200 pigeon holes to make sure there is
really no information in there.

Not only does this halve the speed at which it processes text, it leads to a
state of internal confusion that will roughly double the number of crashes
and freezes the user experiences.

Yes, I do agree: It would have been nice if they could have provided that
explanation in the "What's New". But "What's New" is written by Marketing
and approved by Legal.

If Legal had their way, "What's New" would be entirely blank, just in case
someone somewhere could impute the possibility of an error, mistake, or
shortcoming in any previous version of Word that has ever existed.

If Marketing had their way, every statement in "What's New" would begin "In
a major advance over the offerings from our competitors..." and talk only
about the stuff Google can't do.


Well, yeah, but I am 58 years old. Those of us who grew up on typewriters
are just about to kick the bucket. The real users of the product are a bit
more sophisticated these days :)


It does. You may wish to investigate "Format>Style>Modify..." Takes
perhaps five seconds to do it, once only, and all your documents can be
wrong, now and into the future :)

Cheers
 
C

Clive Huggan

Hello Bob,

Since you ask...

That most ancient and authoritative of all typesetting books, Hart's Rules
for Compositors and Readers at the University Press, Oxford, 1893, of which
I have the 39th edition, in the Appendix: Rules for composition and make-up:
General (page 144 in my edition) states simply:

"(c) Leading between paragraphs is not allowed in continuous text."

By "continuous text", it's evident from other instructions that Hart means
paragraphs otherwise uninterrupted by headings, tables, long quotes etc.

Picking up almost any newspaper or magazine will reveal the same thing. New
paragraphs are usually delineated only by starting with a one-pica (12
points) indent. There is no leading at all between the paragraphs. In other
words, the convention taught at Phillip's and Bob's school in the US, and my
schools in Australia and the UK, followed this rule.

I've had this discussion before, and when I've shown such continuous text
the person has usually said something like "How often have I been reading?
And I never noticed it before."

In case US participants in this newsgroup distrust Limies' usage: Looking to
US sources, The Chicago Manual of Style is consistent with Hart's Rules. In
my 14th edition, chapter 18 (Design and Typography), under successive
headings of ŒSpacing¹ and 'Between lines', the following extract shows the
several factors at play when considering how much leading is appropriate:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
18.23 The space between lines of type is called leading, or lead, because
in hand or Monotype composition it was originally created by strips of lead
inserted between lines of type (see also 2.137-38). To make more space
between lines of text is to lead it, or to lead it out. To close up
lines--leave less space between them--is to delete lead. Leading is measured
in points (one point equaling one-twelfth of a pica) and is always specified
by a designer for each type size used in a book. Where increased leading is
necessary--before and after extracts, for example--the number of points is
usually also specified. If extra leading is used to mark the divisions
between sections, the words 'blank line' or 'line space' circled in the
margin or in the space itself will tell the compositor to insert space
equivalent to one full line of type. A space mark (#) is usually sufficient
to indicate extra space between alphabetic sections in indexes.

18.24 To determine an appropriate amount of leading requires
consideration of a number of factors. The first of these, for text matter at
any rate, is readability, and this is largely dependent upon the type
measurements. The larger the type size, the more leading is required to
prevent the eye from being distracted by the lines above and below the one
being read. Also, the wider the line of type, the greater the leading
needed, because in moving from the end of one line to the beginning of the
next the eye takes a long jump, and in closely set material it may easily
jump to the wrong line. Another factor to consider is economy. Use of a
relatively small type size and reduced leading allows more words per page,
making a thinner book and cutting costs of paper, mailing (weight), and so
forth, although the cost of composition remains the same. The opposite of
this is the desire to make a short work into a longer book. More than the
usual number of points between lines will obviously result in fewer lines
per page and thus more pages in the book.

18.25 The designer's ultimate concern, in specifying leading as in every
other aspect of planning a book, is the nature of the material and the
audience for whom it is intended. [A footnote here states "For examples of
specifications appropriate to various kinds of material see sample layouts
at the end of this chapter"]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Looking at those examples, there are no leading instructions at all for
paragraphs in continuous text; the only such instructions relate to
headings, tables and long quotes. New paragraphs are delineated by one-pica
indents. If one blocks off an inch at either side of the page in the
examples, it's impossible to tell where the paragraphs start and stop.

Why do we customarily use leading to delineate paragraphs in word-processed
documents? My guess is that the great majority decided over a period, back
in typewriter days or in early word-processing days, that it was better to
hit the carriage-return (or Return key) twice than hit the tab key. I
remember having seen both in typewriter days <nostalgic sigh> but had no
great need to take notice -- I just used to dictate to my steno secretary
and she brought back something that I just read, corrected and signed.
Computers were used to get rockets to punch holes in the sky.

Hmm, who would have thought that, decades later, in order to conquer an
often vexatious piece of computer software, I and my good mates McGhie,
Jones, Roper et al would investigate its bowels to the nth degree to save
lots of time and money, then in misguided goodwill descend into this detail
to satisfy the likes of some anonymous, ADHD Generation Y bombast as the
so-called "kkd1411"?

But strangely, I feel better now. It *is* good to know what's proper...

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
============
 
E

Elliott Roper

Hmm, who would have thought that, decades later, in order to conquer an
often vexatious piece of computer software, I and my good mates McGhie,
Jones, Roper et al would investigate its bowels to the nth degree to save
lots of time and money, then in misguided goodwill descend into this detail
to satisfy the likes of some anonymous, ADHD Generation Y bombast as the
so-called "kkd1411"?

(I saw this on a high definition video editing list I inhabit.
"He has AVCHD syndrome Ñ very short attention span, but what incredible
attention to detail while it lasts!")
But strangely, I feel better now. It *is* good to know what's proper...

Hmm, since I get mentioned by name, I felt inclined to argue.
So I clawed at books on the shelves above all the screens on my desk
only to find that you are in the majority. I have too many textbooks.
Almost all of the major imprints, including many of those I consider
elegantly set, like Addison Wesley, Prentice Hall and Wiley have
sneaked indent and no extra leading past me for years. The main
exceptions were O'Reilly, Adobe Press and Apple's own manuals. They use
the convention of no indent but inter-paragraph leading.
Of my collection of poncy books on design and typography, about half do
it with leading and no indent. As you might expect, each is trying to
play with their "look".

Almost all of the texts use leading between paragraphs if something
funny is going on, like a note, running head, equation or section
number. With textbooks, that is most of the time. Sometimes I had to
look at dozens of pages to find adjacent paragraphs of plain text.
Additionally, the combination of indent following a short line at the
end of the preceding paragraph tricks the eye into believing there is
real leading in place.

I like both conventions. Indents are ugly, but I now have to admit they
really work. Good enough to trick me into seeing leading where there
isn't, and I'm picky. Reserving leading for more significant breaks is
a good convention, I reluctantly admit.

I suspect that in the old days, when the world was new and all, it was
a royal pain to manually strip leading between every paragraph when the
type was being set on a linecaster or Monotype machine. So the old
curmudgeons writing the style manuals had bowed to economic pressure
and made a virtue of indents.

Now of course, that restriction has gone away, yet the vast majority of
traditionally well set text, in novels, newspapers and user manuals
still follows that convention for successive paragraphs.

I note that Microsoft Press is one of the minority that uses leading
and no indent. Perhaps that's why Word 2008 slid space after as the
default and got up so many peoples noses? Too much KoolAid in the diet?
 
C

Clive Huggan

Hmm, since I get mentioned by name, I felt inclined to argue.

Hmm, why am I not surprised? Why did I name-drop? ;-)

I totally agree -- not least about the possible origin, having to manually
strip leading between every paragraph when the type was being set on a
linecaster or Monotype machine.

And yes, Elliott, you do have too many textbooks. And you devote unhealthy
attention to glyphs. Stop it, or you'll go blind...

Cheers,

Clive
=====
 

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