Setting single line spacing in word 2008

C

CyberTaz

Salutations Mr. Huggan -

I was most certain we could count on you to weigh in on such a topic -
authoritatively & well documented as usual;-)

It's truly amazing that a subject such as this should generate such
extensive discussion, but even more amazing that literally *everything* one
might think of is thoroughly & explicitly defined with the exception of his
one issue. The succinct item you cite from Hart - definitive as it is - is
one that might easily have gone unnoticed by mere mortals, what with it
being buried in the Appendix.

Ironically it also shifts the focus away from the original issue - not so
much a matter of whether spacing between paragraphs is proper as it is a
question of the appropriate means if one does choose to do so.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



Hello Bob,

Since you ask...

That most ancient and authoritative of all typesetting books, Hart's Rules
for Compositors and Readers at the University Press, Oxford, 1893, of which
I have the 39th edition, in the Appendix: Rules for composition and make-up:
General (page 144 in my edition) states simply:

"(c) Leading between paragraphs is not allowed in continuous text."

By "continuous text", it's evident from other instructions that Hart means
paragraphs otherwise uninterrupted by headings, tables, long quotes etc.

Picking up almost any newspaper or magazine will reveal the same thing. New
paragraphs are usually delineated only by starting with a one-pica (12
points) indent. There is no leading at all between the paragraphs. In other
words, the convention taught at Phillip's and Bob's school in the US, and my
schools in Australia and the UK, followed this rule.

I've had this discussion before, and when I've shown such continuous text
the person has usually said something like "How often have I been reading?
And I never noticed it before."

In case US participants in this newsgroup distrust Limies' usage: Looking to
US sources, The Chicago Manual of Style is consistent with Hart's Rules. In
my 14th edition, chapter 18 (Design and Typography), under successive
headings of ŒSpacing¹ and 'Between lines', the following extract shows the
several factors at play when considering how much leading is appropriate:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
18.23 The space between lines of type is called leading, or lead, because
in hand or Monotype composition it was originally created by strips of lead
inserted between lines of type (see also 2.137-38). To make more space
between lines of text is to lead it, or to lead it out. To close up
lines--leave less space between them--is to delete lead. Leading is measured
in points (one point equaling one-twelfth of a pica) and is always specified
by a designer for each type size used in a book. Where increased leading is
necessary--before and after extracts, for example--the number of points is
usually also specified. If extra leading is used to mark the divisions
between sections, the words 'blank line' or 'line space' circled in the
margin or in the space itself will tell the compositor to insert space
equivalent to one full line of type. A space mark (#) is usually sufficient
to indicate extra space between alphabetic sections in indexes.

18.24 To determine an appropriate amount of leading requires
consideration of a number of factors. The first of these, for text matter at
any rate, is readability, and this is largely dependent upon the type
measurements. The larger the type size, the more leading is required to
prevent the eye from being distracted by the lines above and below the one
being read. Also, the wider the line of type, the greater the leading
needed, because in moving from the end of one line to the beginning of the
next the eye takes a long jump, and in closely set material it may easily
jump to the wrong line. Another factor to consider is economy. Use of a
relatively small type size and reduced leading allows more words per page,
making a thinner book and cutting costs of paper, mailing (weight), and so
forth, although the cost of composition remains the same. The opposite of
this is the desire to make a short work into a longer book. More than the
usual number of points between lines will obviously result in fewer lines
per page and thus more pages in the book.

18.25 The designer's ultimate concern, in specifying leading as in every
other aspect of planning a book, is the nature of the material and the
audience for whom it is intended. [A footnote here states "For examples of
specifications appropriate to various kinds of material see sample layouts
at the end of this chapter"]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Looking at those examples, there are no leading instructions at all for
paragraphs in continuous text; the only such instructions relate to
headings, tables and long quotes. New paragraphs are delineated by one-pica
indents. If one blocks off an inch at either side of the page in the
examples, it's impossible to tell where the paragraphs start and stop.

Why do we customarily use leading to delineate paragraphs in word-processed
documents? My guess is that the great majority decided over a period, back
in typewriter days or in early word-processing days, that it was better to
hit the carriage-return (or Return key) twice than hit the tab key. I
remember having seen both in typewriter days <nostalgic sigh> but had no
great need to take notice -- I just used to dictate to my steno secretary
and she brought back something that I just read, corrected and signed.
Computers were used to get rockets to punch holes in the sky.

Hmm, who would have thought that, decades later, in order to conquer an
often vexatious piece of computer software, I and my good mates McGhie,
Jones, Roper et al would investigate its bowels to the nth degree to save
lots of time and money, then in misguided goodwill descend into this detail
to satisfy the likes of some anonymous, ADHD Generation Y bombast as the
so-called "kkd1411"?

But strangely, I feel better now. It *is* good to know what's proper...

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
============


Hi Phillip -

As I understand it, it isn't a matter of "correct" or "incorrect", it's a
matter of convention. The composition you (and I) were taught as kids
pertained to handwritten work. The accepted U.S. English convention has
traditionally been indentation to indicate separation between paragraphs,
while other English variants & other languages tend toward spacing.

Space between paragraphs is equally acceptable & is preferred in many
professional environments for typeset or printed work. The determining
factor relates to readability. All sources I've consulted agree that
separation of some some sort between paragraphs is necessary to provide the
reader with proper distinction between one paragraph & the next as well as
enhancing readability of the document. The most stringent *rule* I've seen
is that using both spacing *and* indentation is improper.

If you know of any authoritative references on the subject I'd appreciate
knowing what they are. I've checked Strunk, Columbia, Bartleby's and every
other source I know of. Perhaps if Daiya Mitchell tunes in on this
discussion she may have some insights.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac
 
C

Clive Huggan

And quite right you are, Mr Jones!

CH
===

Salutations Mr. Huggan -

I was most certain we could count on you to weigh in on such a topic -
authoritatively & well documented as usual;-)

It's truly amazing that a subject such as this should generate such
extensive discussion, but even more amazing that literally *everything* one
might think of is thoroughly & explicitly defined with the exception of his
one issue. The succinct item you cite from Hart - definitive as it is - is
one that might easily have gone unnoticed by mere mortals, what with it
being buried in the Appendix.

Ironically it also shifts the focus away from the original issue - not so
much a matter of whether spacing between paragraphs is proper as it is a
question of the appropriate means if one does choose to do so.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



Hello Bob,

Since you ask...

That most ancient and authoritative of all typesetting books, Hart's Rules
for Compositors and Readers at the University Press, Oxford, 1893, of which
I have the 39th edition, in the Appendix: Rules for composition and make-up:
General (page 144 in my edition) states simply:

"(c) Leading between paragraphs is not allowed in continuous text."

By "continuous text", it's evident from other instructions that Hart means
paragraphs otherwise uninterrupted by headings, tables, long quotes etc.

Picking up almost any newspaper or magazine will reveal the same thing. New
paragraphs are usually delineated only by starting with a one-pica (12
points) indent. There is no leading at all between the paragraphs. In other
words, the convention taught at Phillip's and Bob's school in the US, and my
schools in Australia and the UK, followed this rule.

I've had this discussion before, and when I've shown such continuous text
the person has usually said something like "How often have I been reading?
And I never noticed it before."

In case US participants in this newsgroup distrust Limies' usage: Looking to
US sources, The Chicago Manual of Style is consistent with Hart's Rules. In
my 14th edition, chapter 18 (Design and Typography), under successive
headings of ŒSpacing¹ and 'Between lines', the following extract shows the
several factors at play when considering how much leading is appropriate:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
18.23 The space between lines of type is called leading, or lead, because
in hand or Monotype composition it was originally created by strips of lead
inserted between lines of type (see also 2.137-38). To make more space
between lines of text is to lead it, or to lead it out. To close up
lines--leave less space between them--is to delete lead. Leading is measured
in points (one point equaling one-twelfth of a pica) and is always specified
by a designer for each type size used in a book. Where increased leading is
necessary--before and after extracts, for example--the number of points is
usually also specified. If extra leading is used to mark the divisions
between sections, the words 'blank line' or 'line space' circled in the
margin or in the space itself will tell the compositor to insert space
equivalent to one full line of type. A space mark (#) is usually sufficient
to indicate extra space between alphabetic sections in indexes.

18.24 To determine an appropriate amount of leading requires
consideration of a number of factors. The first of these, for text matter at
any rate, is readability, and this is largely dependent upon the type
measurements. The larger the type size, the more leading is required to
prevent the eye from being distracted by the lines above and below the one
being read. Also, the wider the line of type, the greater the leading
needed, because in moving from the end of one line to the beginning of the
next the eye takes a long jump, and in closely set material it may easily
jump to the wrong line. Another factor to consider is economy. Use of a
relatively small type size and reduced leading allows more words per page,
making a thinner book and cutting costs of paper, mailing (weight), and so
forth, although the cost of composition remains the same. The opposite of
this is the desire to make a short work into a longer book. More than the
usual number of points between lines will obviously result in fewer lines
per page and thus more pages in the book.

18.25 The designer's ultimate concern, in specifying leading as in every
other aspect of planning a book, is the nature of the material and the
audience for whom it is intended. [A footnote here states "For examples of
specifications appropriate to various kinds of material see sample layouts
at the end of this chapter"]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Looking at those examples, there are no leading instructions at all for
paragraphs in continuous text; the only such instructions relate to
headings, tables and long quotes. New paragraphs are delineated by one-pica
indents. If one blocks off an inch at either side of the page in the
examples, it's impossible to tell where the paragraphs start and stop.

Why do we customarily use leading to delineate paragraphs in word-processed
documents? My guess is that the great majority decided over a period, back
in typewriter days or in early word-processing days, that it was better to
hit the carriage-return (or Return key) twice than hit the tab key. I
remember having seen both in typewriter days <nostalgic sigh> but had no
great need to take notice -- I just used to dictate to my steno secretary
and she brought back something that I just read, corrected and signed.
Computers were used to get rockets to punch holes in the sky.

Hmm, who would have thought that, decades later, in order to conquer an
often vexatious piece of computer software, I and my good mates McGhie,
Jones, Roper et al would investigate its bowels to the nth degree to save
lots of time and money, then in misguided goodwill descend into this detail
to satisfy the likes of some anonymous, ADHD Generation Y bombast as the
so-called "kkd1411"?

But strangely, I feel better now. It *is* good to know what's proper...

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
============


Hi Phillip -

As I understand it, it isn't a matter of "correct" or "incorrect", it's a
matter of convention. The composition you (and I) were taught as kids
pertained to handwritten work. The accepted U.S. English convention has
traditionally been indentation to indicate separation between paragraphs,
while other English variants & other languages tend toward spacing.

Space between paragraphs is equally acceptable & is preferred in many
professional environments for typeset or printed work. The determining
factor relates to readability. All sources I've consulted agree that
separation of some some sort between paragraphs is necessary to provide the
reader with proper distinction between one paragraph & the next as well as
enhancing readability of the document. The most stringent *rule* I've seen
is that using both spacing *and* indentation is improper.

If you know of any authoritative references on the subject I'd appreciate
knowing what they are. I've checked Strunk, Columbia, Bartleby's and every
other source I know of. Perhaps if Daiya Mitchell tunes in on this
discussion she may have some insights.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 5/11/08 12:15 PM, in article (e-mail address removed),

MC wrote:
Hi _____-

If you insist on changing it rather than coming to understand it and
using
it effectively see item #3 instructions on this page;

http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Word2008Issues.html#DoubleSpacing

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

Do I detect a note of disapproval?

Look, this thing is an annoyance. It was foisted on users without a
single word of What's New, no one who is used to the old way doing it
likes it -- no matter how much sense it might make on a theoretical
plane -- and without digging into the settings there is no way of OPTING
for or against it. It should be a Preference and it should be explained.

I have another program (Movie Magic Screenwriter 2000) that defaults to
this way, so I am used to it and I DO UNDERSTAND IT, but I do not like
it -- and judging by the traffic in here, not many others like it
either.

If MS would offer a simple choice in prefs everybody (including those
who share your opinion) would be happier than appear to be now.


Its not even correct! when I learned to write Letters in school
*handwritten or typed* there was no space between Paragraphs.

The only place it warranted is Bylaws Working Rules in an Association or
Company or legal documents.

But just for Plain business, or even personal its not. Not once have I
ever inserted an additional space between Paragraphs expect in my
Association's Bylaws, Working Rules, and Code of Ethics. Just documents
between you or I no spaces between paragraphs. Now a 5 Character indent
at start of each Paragraph is normal.

I space here in emails and newsgroups because everything tends to run
together.
 
J

John McGhie

Wooo Hoo... Bring it on!!! :)

Why do we customarily use leading to delineate paragraphs in word-processed
documents? My guess is that the great majority decided over a period, back
in typewriter days or in early word-processing days, that it was better to
hit the carriage-return (or Return key) twice than hit the tab key. I
remember having seen both in typewriter days <nostalgic sigh> but had no
great need to take notice -- I just used to dictate to my steno secretary
and she brought back something that I just read, corrected and signed.
Computers were used to get rockets to punch holes in the sky.

My guess is that it came from the Readability Studies conducted by that
fellow from the University of NSW whose name ALWAYS escapes me: the Plain
English fellow.

His seminal work on the notion of "chunking" text to improve recognition,
navigation, comprehension, and retentively were ultimately packaged and sold
as "Information Mapping"

The idea is that by dividing the text into visually distinct blocks, all
manner of goodness will flow.

If I could remember the man's name, I could look up his articles and cite
them... {Sob}

In technical writing, it has become an article of faith now. You will never
see first-line-indented paragraphs in technical writing these days, because
they are readability horrors.

But Word will do them :) If you set your styles appropriately :)

Cheers

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 
P

Phillip Jones

Hey Clive we are talking about *2008" It doesn't have macros. Remember
no VBA

Clive said:
Ho-ho-ho!

Pity I had to come in so late...

Firstly, Matthew, I well remember your revelation some months ago, and
you'll notice I have always used your name once you thus became a "real"
person (made easier by my elder son also having that noble name). And I
have greatly enjoyed your many posts. As for m'learned colleagues not
remembering, well, some have let slip their ages. Maybe, for them, you
could, er, manually add your name... ;-)

I agree with Matthew's comment about the desirability of being able to
select a preference in a more obvious place. Trouble is, I suppose, once you
start with that one I can think of dozens more. Then, impatient people will
complain they can't find it in among the choices. As they do already...

Speaking of impatience, I must confess that I find bombastic,
let-it-all-hang-out-after-milliseconds-of-thought comments a bit trying.
We've had a lot of them here lately. One is the OP's:

"What a dumb feature. I can't type a simple address on a cover letter.
Single spacing means single spaces. If i want a space between paragraphs I
can hit enter".

Surely it isn't too difficult to hold down the Shift key while hitting the
Return key at the end of a line, to force a new line in an address.

But "What a dumb feature" deserves comment.

You can switch it off if you want a typewriter. That's already been
addressed earlier in this thread.

But -- thank goodness -- Word isn't only capable of being used as a Vespa --
it's also very much, and uniquely, a Rolls Royce application, capable of
immensely more than the typewriter that the OP hankers after. If I want to
open up the paragraph leading [OP: = spaces between paragraphs] I can change
the definition of the style for, say, body text paragraphs (a) in that
document or (b) in all documents. Or I can manually add or remove leading to
one paragraph. Most often this is used to condense text back on to a
particular page when a little has flowed over to the next. Try doing that
with double paragraph marks / carriage returns.

Word enables me to do that in seconds or, with macros, less than a second.
Millions of people around the world use this "dumb feature" many times a
day. I've calculated my time savings through using Word well at almost 20
per cent compared with someone who doesn't deign to learn its features. Such
features, more importantly, immensely improve the quality of communication
that comes from the keyboard.

But I suspect the bleating by those like the OP who can't be bothered to
look beyond their noses will bend MacBU the other way before we know it. So
here's some advice: don't bleat here among fellow users: go to the Help menu
and tell the people at Microsoft what you think...

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================


Hey John - perhaps if we old timers started to ardently proclaim the old
technology as being *right* the young pups would exercise their defiance &
insist on the benefits & advantages of the newer technology. Isn't it ironic
that in this world of "gotta have the newest, latest & greatest - ain't your
father's Oldsmobile" mentality some insist on clinging to a kludge devised
by their [great-] grandfathers as a workaround only because it was the best
they could do at the time?

I wonder why the Blackberry, cell phone & iPhone came to be so popular when
rotary dial, transistor radios & 3-ring binders worked so flawlessly???? ;-)

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



Hi Whatever Your Name Is...

(You've been in here long enough by now to add your name, especially when
ticking us off :) )

On 12/05/08 12:43 AM, in article
(e-mail address removed)-sjc.supernews.net, "MC"

Look, this thing is an annoyance. It was foisted on users
Those of us used to producing text for publication would mutter something
about "no, it was foisted on people who have so far avoided becoming users,
in a pathetic attempt to help them learn to use Word easily."

Really! Documents are a hell of a lot easier to create and much more stable
in service if you include leading on your styles.

Yes, I know how tempting it is to just hit Enter twice when you want some
space. But if you do that, you insert an empty container in the text. A
paragraph is not a carriage return and new line character, it's a container
holding around 1,200 formatting properties. If you insert a "blank
paragraph", Word has to inspect all 1,200 pigeon holes to make sure there is
really no information in there.

Not only does this halve the speed at which it processes text, it leads to a
state of internal confusion that will roughly double the number of crashes
and freezes the user experiences.

Yes, I do agree: It would have been nice if they could have provided that
explanation in the "What's New". But "What's New" is written by Marketing
and approved by Legal.

If Legal had their way, "What's New" would be entirely blank, just in case
someone somewhere could impute the possibility of an error, mistake, or
shortcoming in any previous version of Word that has ever existed.

If Marketing had their way, every statement in "What's New" would begin "In
a major advance over the offerings from our competitors..." and talk only
about the stuff Google can't do.

no one who is used to the old way doing it likes it
Well, yeah, but I am 58 years old. Those of us who grew up on typewriters
are just about to kick the bucket. The real users of the product are a bit
more sophisticated these days :)

If MS would offer a simple choice in prefs everybody (including those
who share your opinion) would be happier than appear to be now.
It does. You may wish to investigate "Format>Style>Modify..." Takes
perhaps five seconds to do it, once only, and all your documents can be
wrong, now and into the future :)

Cheers

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
P

Phillip Jones

John said:
Wooo Hoo... Bring it on!!! :)



My guess is that it came from the Readability Studies conducted by that
fellow from the University of NSW whose name ALWAYS escapes me: the Plain
English fellow.

His seminal work on the notion of "chunking" text to improve recognition,
navigation, comprehension, and retentively were ultimately packaged andsold
as "Information Mapping"

The idea is that by dividing the text into visually distinct blocks, all
manner of goodness will flow.

If I could remember the man's name, I could look up his articles and cite
them... {Sob}


Bill Gates? ;-)
In technical writing, it has become an article of faith now. You will never
see first-line-indented paragraphs in technical writing these days, because
they are readability horrors.

But Word will do them :) If you set your styles appropriately :)

Cheers

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
C

Clive Huggan

On 13/5/08 10:25 PM, in article C44FBECC.14D0E%[email protected], "John

My guess is that it came from the Readability Studies conducted by that
fellow from the University of NSW whose name ALWAYS escapes me: the Plain
English fellow.

Not me, mate! -- Robert D Eagleson, former Associate Professor of Modern
English Language at the University of Sydney. I had a few discussions with
him professionally about 15 years ago -- I expect he would be well into
retirement now. He is a true gentleman and scholar.
His seminal work on the notion of "chunking" text to improve recognition,
navigation, comprehension, and retentively were ultimately packaged and sold
as "Information Mapping"

The idea is that by dividing the text into visually distinct blocks, all
manner of goodness will flow.

If I could remember the man's name, I could look up his articles and cite
them... {Sob}

Now, I'm looking forward to that, John, because you have previously been too
worldly to offer to do that in other matters concerning readability (forgive
my bluntness this morning). For example, your pronouncements on serifed /
non-serifed fonts.

Yours in breathless anticipation,

Clive
=====
 
C

Clive Huggan

I was aware of that, Phillip. My ref to macros wasn't material; only to
illustrate how quickly this process can occur with a macro.

See thread "Missing Setting - don't paste formatting from other
applications". For Word 2008:
http://word.mvps.org/mac/Scripts/PasteTextAS.html

Clive
======

Hey Clive we are talking about *2008" It doesn't have macros. Remember
no VBA

Clive said:
Ho-ho-ho!

Pity I had to come in so late...

Firstly, Matthew, I well remember your revelation some months ago, and
you'll notice I have always used your name once you thus became a "real"
person (made easier by my elder son also having that noble name). And I
have greatly enjoyed your many posts. As for m'learned colleagues not
remembering, well, some have let slip their ages. Maybe, for them, you
could, er, manually add your name... ;-)

I agree with Matthew's comment about the desirability of being able to
select a preference in a more obvious place. Trouble is, I suppose, once you
start with that one I can think of dozens more. Then, impatient people will
complain they can't find it in among the choices. As they do already...

Speaking of impatience, I must confess that I find bombastic,
let-it-all-hang-out-after-milliseconds-of-thought comments a bit trying.
We've had a lot of them here lately. One is the OP's:

"What a dumb feature. I can't type a simple address on a cover letter.
Single spacing means single spaces. If i want a space between paragraphs I
can hit enter".

Surely it isn't too difficult to hold down the Shift key while hitting the
Return key at the end of a line, to force a new line in an address.

But "What a dumb feature" deserves comment.

You can switch it off if you want a typewriter. That's already been
addressed earlier in this thread.

But -- thank goodness -- Word isn't only capable of being used as a Vespa --
it's also very much, and uniquely, a Rolls Royce application, capable of
immensely more than the typewriter that the OP hankers after. If I want to
open up the paragraph leading [OP: = spaces between paragraphs] I can change
the definition of the style for, say, body text paragraphs (a) in that
document or (b) in all documents. Or I can manually add or remove leading to
one paragraph. Most often this is used to condense text back on to a
particular page when a little has flowed over to the next. Try doing that
with double paragraph marks / carriage returns.

Word enables me to do that in seconds or, with macros, less than a second.
Millions of people around the world use this "dumb feature" many times a
day. I've calculated my time savings through using Word well at almost 20
per cent compared with someone who doesn't deign to learn its features. Such
features, more importantly, immensely improve the quality of communication
that comes from the keyboard.

But I suspect the bleating by those like the OP who can't be bothered to
look beyond their noses will bend MacBU the other way before we know it. So
here's some advice: don't bleat here among fellow users: go to the Help menu
and tell the people at Microsoft what you think...

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================


Hey John - perhaps if we old timers started to ardently proclaim the old
technology as being *right* the young pups would exercise their defiance &
insist on the benefits & advantages of the newer technology. Isn't it ironic
that in this world of "gotta have the newest, latest & greatest - ain't your
father's Oldsmobile" mentality some insist on clinging to a kludge devised
by their [great-] grandfathers as a workaround only because it was the best
they could do at the time?

I wonder why the Blackberry, cell phone & iPhone came to be so popular when
rotary dial, transistor radios & 3-ring binders worked so flawlessly???? ;-)

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 5/11/08 7:31 PM, in article C44DBEED.14C2E%[email protected], "John

Hi Whatever Your Name Is...

(You've been in here long enough by now to add your name, especially when
ticking us off :) )

On 12/05/08 12:43 AM, in article
(e-mail address removed)-sjc.supernews.net, "MC"

Look, this thing is an annoyance. It was foisted on users
Those of us used to producing text for publication would mutter something
about "no, it was foisted on people who have so far avoided becoming users,
in a pathetic attempt to help them learn to use Word easily."

Really! Documents are a hell of a lot easier to create and much more
stable
in service if you include leading on your styles.

Yes, I know how tempting it is to just hit Enter twice when you want some
space. But if you do that, you insert an empty container in the text. A
paragraph is not a carriage return and new line character, it's a container
holding around 1,200 formatting properties. If you insert a "blank
paragraph", Word has to inspect all 1,200 pigeon holes to make sure there
is
really no information in there.

Not only does this halve the speed at which it processes text, it leads to
a
state of internal confusion that will roughly double the number of crashes
and freezes the user experiences.

Yes, I do agree: It would have been nice if they could have provided that
explanation in the "What's New". But "What's New" is written by Marketing
and approved by Legal.

If Legal had their way, "What's New" would be entirely blank, just in case
someone somewhere could impute the possibility of an error, mistake, or
shortcoming in any previous version of Word that has ever existed.

If Marketing had their way, every statement in "What's New" would begin "In
a major advance over the offerings from our competitors..." and talk only
about the stuff Google can't do.

no one who is used to the old way doing it likes it
Well, yeah, but I am 58 years old. Those of us who grew up on typewriters
are just about to kick the bucket. The real users of the product are a bit
more sophisticated these days :)

If MS would offer a simple choice in prefs everybody (including those
who share your opinion) would be happier than appear to be now.
It does. You may wish to investigate "Format>Style>Modify..." Takes
perhaps five seconds to do it, once only, and all your documents can be
wrong, now and into the future :)

Cheers
 
J

John McGhie

No: Professor Robert Eagleson. I remembered right after I ran out of
battery :)


It wouldn't be Robert E. Horn, would it?

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 
N

Norman R. Nager, Ph.D.

How about Rudolf Flesch, author of a readability index, the classic "Art of
Plain Talk," and a number of other valuable books and articles?

Respectfully, Norm
 
C

Clive Huggan

Well done, John!

Are you ready yet to respond to the rest of my post to that effect some 12
hours previously? ;-))

Cheers,

Clive
======
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Norm:

I have to admit I am not that familiar with Flesh's work. But no, it wasn't
him.

Eagleson and his team did some fascinating studies on the effects of various
typographical devices on readability, comprehensibility and retentivity.

One of their very clear findings was to do with "Chunking" information types
or topics so that they were physically associated for the reader.

Text set with a first-line indent and no extra leading (no space before or
after the paragraph) scores poorly in this respect. 7-day retentivity is
something like half the score of correctly chunked text, if memory serves.

Which at this age, it often doesn't...

Cheers

How about Rudolf Flesch, author of a readability index, the classic "Art of
Plain Talk," and a number of other valuable books and articles?

Respectfully, Norm

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 
J

John McGhie

Keep holding your breath... Maybe when I retire...

I know that the last time I went looking for them, I spend an hour or two
and didn't find them.

Cheers


Well done, John!

Are you ready yet to respond to the rest of my post to that effect some 12
hours previously? ;-))

Cheers,

Clive
======

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 

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