Solver in Excel 2008?

[Bofus]

Probably too late for many, but your old version of Excel can co-exist with the new version. During 2008 installation, do not select "delete previous versions of Office..." near the end of the installation process.

Regards,

 

[JE McGimpsey]

Probably too late for many, but your old version of Excel can co-exist with
the new version. During 2008 installation, do not select "delete previous
versions of Office..." near the end of the installation process.
<br><br>Regards,

It shouldn't be too late for anyone - you can always reinstall XL04.

 

[Guest]

Solver is important to my research work and I have come to rely on it. Surely Microsoft has to offer an alternative solution. New products generally get more features not fewer

 

[JE McGimpsey]

Solver is important to my research work and I have come to rely on it. Surely
Microsoft has to offer an alternative solution. New products generally get
more features not fewer

Make sure you send feedback via Help/Send Feedback... to let MacBU know
how important it is to you.

Solver is a casualty of not being able to include VBA in Office 2008.
MacBU certainly knows that its removal is painful for some users.
Whether, and if so when, a fix can be made depends on both the technical
difficulty and competing priorities.

In the mean time, if other aspects of Office 2008 make it worthwhile to
use (and there *are* lots of new features), you can still run XL04 with
Office 2008.

 

[DB MacDonald. MD]

The lack of Solver and VBA support are simply unacceptable. I use both extensively in research applications. There are many, many things that cannot be done without these features.

 

[JE McGimpsey]

The lack of Solver and VBA support are simply unacceptable. I use both
extensively in research applications. There are many, many things that cannot
be done without these features.

Then make sure you use Help/Send Feedback to tell MS exactly how you use
Solver and VBA.

FWIW, "simply unacceptable" isn't really particularly helpful. It's not
like MacBU just decided to remove VBA support (and with it, Solver) on a
whim. Their decision was a matter of time and available resources. They
didn't have the resources to bring it along in the timeframe of this
release.

Whether, and if so, when, a fix becomes available depends on market
demand, technical difficulty, and resource allocation. Of the three, we
can only really affect one, so make sure your voice is heard.

 

[Matthew Realff]

The loss of solver will kill the use of Office at the undergraduate level. As an instructor I am required to make sure that my examples and homework problems can be done by students who own Mac's or PC's. I use solver extensively for small optimization problems - but I will no longer be able to do that.

Creating significant functional discrepancies in the same software between the two hardware platforms means that the software cannot be adopted on EITHER platform in educational environments where it is difficult to prescribe that students buy one platform or the other.

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Realff -

We understand - and most agree with - what you're saying, but this newsgroup
can do nothing about it... IOW, you're preaching to the choir

Based on the number of negative posts I've seen on similar issues there's no
doubt MS is acutely aware of the impact, but what - if anything - may happen
to resolve it depends on what type of direct feedback they get from their
client base.

If you want to express your concern where it may do some good, go to Excel's
Help menu & use the Send Feedback feature.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Carl Witthoft]

The loss of solver will kill the use of Office at the undergraduate level. As
an instructor I am required to make sure that my examples and homework
problems can be done by students who own Mac's or PC's. I use solver
extensively for small optimization problems - but I will no longer be able to
do that.<br>
<br>
Creating significant functional discrepancies in the same software between
the two hardware platforms means that the software cannot be adopted on
EITHER platform in educational environments where it is difficult to
prescribe that students buy one platform or the other.

I'll re-post an alternative solver tool, which does have both a Mac and
Win version: Equato.

http://www.kaleberg.com/software/equato/index.html

The documentation is a bit sketchy and the UI is a bit clunky, but
heck, it's freeware. (Incidentally, it's written by one of the original
creators of TK!Solver, a tool I loved back in the early Mac days).

If you like Equato, let me know and I can pass along some hints and
techniques I found (including the graphing window) that aren't on his
source web page.

Carl

Or, you could grab some MatLab code to execute Newton-Raphson solver
algorithm. Either rewrite it in the language of your choice, or run it
on the freeware clones like FreeMat or Octave (or I believe SciLab as
well).

 

[noibs]

I'm a prof who teaches some introductory linear programming to undergraduates. I simply cannot believe that Solver is not included in Excel 2008.

Calling Excel 2008 "Excel" is just wrong. It should be "Excel Lite."

Now where did I put my install disk for Excel 2004? It never occurred it me even once that Solver would be dropped.

 

[jpdphd]

In another post. It was revealed that at the Mac conference MS MacBU
team got an extreme earful about Solver Its definitely on the *to do*
list. It was noted it might not be solvable. Although If the code base
is the same between Office2007 PC and Office2008 are identical just
changes for the look and feel and key Mappings. I can't see what broke.
Except on the differences in OSX's and Windows' Math system?




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<http://www.vpea.org>

No Solver in Excel 08 means I won't be buying it (yes, I sent a
message to MacBU explaining my reasons).
But...
I cannot find anything on the Mactopia website explaining just what is
NEW (aside from a lack of Solver and VBA) in Excel 08. And, from what
I've read in all of these discussions is that the only new feature
users would want is colored worksheet tabs. So, just out of curiosity,
can anyone tell me,
"What's new???"

 

[JE McGimpsey]

No Solver in Excel 08 means I won't be buying it (yes, I sent a
message to MacBU explaining my reasons).
But...
I cannot find anything on the Mactopia website explaining just what is
NEW (aside from a lack of Solver and VBA) in Excel 08. And, from what
I've read in all of these discussions is that the only new feature
users would want is colored worksheet tabs. So, just out of curiosity,
can anyone tell me,
"What's new???"

Hmmm... a quick search on MacTopia (search phrase "what's new") brought
up this Mactopia page

http://tinyurl.com/2oev7t

 

[jpdphd]

Hmmm... a quick search on MacTopia (search phrase "what's new") brought
up this Mactopia page

   http://tinyurl.com/2oev7t

Ahhh, thanks. My search was "new features".
I'm not very impressed. People who know how to use Excel will probably
not benefit so much from templates (aka ledger sheets), tweaked
function help (aka formula builder & autocomplete - gee whiz, you
don't have to memorize formulas in Excel 04), and charts that place
more emphasis on being pretty (aka improved charting) than conveying
information (sorry, that's my pet peeve - especially, using 3D to
display 2D info).
Maybe I'm just cantankerous or maybe its sour grapes but I have no
regrets about sticking with Excel 04.

 

[Phillip Jones]

Another variation on your title would be Ex - Lax ;-)

But now for serious answer.

Open up Excel 2008 go to Help menu and click on Feedback give your
credentials (to sway them better and give reasons for needing Solver.
Maybe they will put it back some time in the future. Maybe even figuring
out away for it to work without VBA.

Worth a shot anyway.

I'm a prof who teaches some introductory linear programming to
undergraduates. I simply cannot believe that Solver is not included in
Excel 2008.

Calling Excel 2008 "Excel" is just wrong. It should be "Excel Lite."

Now where did I put my install disk for Excel 2004? It never occurred it
me even once that Solver would be dropped.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[JE McGimpsey]

Maybe I'm just cantankerous or maybe its sour grapes but I have no
regrets about sticking with Excel 04.

I won't say that formula builder and ledger sheets aren't useful for
light users, but for a power user, they're not going to be compelling.

XL is definitely the app that gives the least reason to upgrade.

As I understand it, it's also the app that was hardest to convert to the
new file format, which kind of makes sense, given the change in number
of rows and columns, and how that likely affected just about everything
in the calculation engine.

 

[JB]

You know, I'd love to believe the "MacBU resource constraints" argument as the reason that VBA/Solver functionality was dropped from Excel. However, this isn't some small indie software shop trying to keep their head above water. This is Microsoft - a company with vast resources that generally thinks in the long term. I can't imagine the lack of VBA and Solver in Excel 2008 was due to budgetary constraints or lack of headcount in the MacBU. If Microsoft thought that VBA and Solver were important in their long term strategic plans, they would have both been in Office 2008.

There are two reasons why Solver and VBA didn't show up in Mac Office 2008:
1. Attempted bifurcation of the Mac Office user base.
2. Starting the long death of VBA.

First, the bifurcation of the Mac Office user base. Mac Office 2008 satisfies the casual users that can almost get by with iWork, but not quite (let's face it: Numbers has a looonnng way to go). The message for more advanced Office users (like those of us who use VBA and Solver) is clear: If you want the "full" version of Office on your Mac, buy VMWare, XP/Vista, and the Windows version of Office. It's not ideal, but it can be made to work. That keeps a Windows OS on your system and allows Microsoft to concentrate the premium functionality of Office into a single Windows version. Whether the underlying hardware platform is a Mac or not is immaterial. For Microsoft, the margins are actually better when a Mac user buys a boxed version of XP/Vista and Office instead of getting it bundled with a new Dell.

The other issue is VBA itself. Solver may make a comeback in a future version of Excel 2008 depending on how loud the screams get, but VBA will never see the light of day on the Mac again. Microsoft would love to kill VBA on Windows as well, since it is a dead-end code base in terms of their .NET strategy, so it didn't make any sense to put any effort into a new version of VBA for Mac Office. Microsoft has pledged that VBA will remain in the next version of Windows Office (after some reports to the contrary [1]), but they also stopped licensing Windows VBA to third parties last July and have recommended that new Windows Office applications and add-ins (like the Solver) be written using Visual Studio Tools for Applications or Visual Studio Tools for Office, both .NET environments that have no VBA anywhere and will never be offered on the Mac. Nothing substantial has been improved in VBA for years, so it's clear that it is on it's way out on Windows too. Much like Microsoft's old C++ GUI MFC library, it's just a matter of how long it takes to kill it off.

Microsoft is treading on thin ice here. There is another subtle point here on backwards compatibility that goes back to the introduction of .NET. VBA was an outgrowth of Visual Basic. When .NET was evolving, Microsoft realized that the original Visual Basic language could not be turned into a .NET language as-is. So they enhanced the language and chose to break backward compatibility with old VB code. Before switching to the Mac when OS X came out, I was a long time Windows developer, and this was the first time I ever saw Microsoft ruin backward compatibility on purpose (See [2] for an interesting essay about this from the former Microsoft developer who wrote the original VBA spec). Visual Basic.NET is a completely different beast, and older non-.NET VB code won't run in .NET. When all of the VB coders realized that their VB code needed a line-by-line port to work in VB.NET, a lot of them stopped, and for the first time, lifted their head out of the sand, and looked around for other solutions. The thought was, "If I need to rewrite this anyways, maybe I should use Java/Python/Ruby/PHP/Flash/etc.". And that's what a lot of them did.

What's this have to do with Mac Office? Well, there's a similar force at work here. From version 1.0 until Excel 2008, I never considered using anything except Excel. It was the gold standard - both for compatibility and for features. But both compatibility and features have taken a big hit with Excel 2008, and now I'm looking at the vast number of spreadsheets I have with VBA code that won't run in Mac Excel 2008 today and probably won't run in Windows Excel 2010 (or whenever VBA disappears completely), and I'm making that same assessment - If my features are gone and I'm breaking backwards compatibility, why stick with Excel? There's no way I'm using Applescript to automate spreadsheets - it's a far worse language than VBA ever was. So I'm pausing to look around for other options. And you know what? It's kind of refreshing. I don't expect to find a drop-in Excel replacement, but the market forces will fill the void in time.

I'm not really frustrated by any of this. I can't say that I agree with the choices Microsoft made for Mac Office 2008, but I assume they made them after thorough realization of the various issues that would arise. And I'm not anti-Microsoft. I very much like the MacBU and have a lot of respect for what they accomplish, but in the end, I don't think this was their call.

[1] &lt;http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/01/14/office_mac_08_vba/&gt;
[2] &lt;http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html&gt;

 

[Joe]

The "new features" of Excel are pretty ridiculous. And the can't compensate the loss of VB and the solver.
I will not buy Office 2008 until these deficiencies are eliminated.

 

[Bob Greenblatt]

You know, I'd love to believe the "MacBU resource constraints" argument as the
reason that VBA/Solver functionality was dropped from Excel. However, this
isn't some small indie software shop trying to keep their head above water.
This is Microsoft - a company with vast resources that generally thinks in the
long term. I can't imagine the lack of VBA and Solver in Excel 2008 was due to
budgetary constraints or lack of headcount in the MacBU. If Microsoft thought
that VBA and Solver were important in their long term strategic plans, they
would have both been in Office 2008.

Well, you can believe what you want. But, MacBU is just like a ³small indie
software shop...² And, like them have limited resources, and budge.
Headcount by itself, is not necessarily the solution. Great Mac programmers
(for something as complex as Excel) can¹t be easily grown, or found.

There are two reasons why Solver and VBA didn't show up in Mac Office 2008:
1. Attempted bifurcation of the Mac Office user base.
2. Starting the long death of VBA.

I think #1 is just conspiracy theory. Think what you want, but I¹ll bet a
whole lot that this is NOT a long term Microsoft strategy, or even a
desirable side effect. I agree with #2, for the reasons you state below.
But, I¹ll bet again that it had absolutely no effect on the decision to
eliminate VBA fro Excel 2008

First, the bifurcation of the Mac Office user base. Mac Office 2008 satisfies
the casual users that can almost get by with iWork, but not quite (let's face
it: Numbers has a looonnng way to go). The message for more advanced Office
users (like those of us who use VBA and Solver) is clear: If you want the
"full" version of Office on your Mac, buy VMWare, XP/Vista, and the Windows
version of Office. It's not ideal, but it can be made to work. That keeps a
Windows OS on your system and allows Microsoft to concentrate the premium
functionality of Office into a single Windows version. Whether the underlying
hardware platform is a Mac or not is immaterial. For Microsoft, the margins
are actually better when a Mac user buys a boxed version of XP/Vista and
Office instead of getting it bundled with a new Dell.

Hogwash. These are possible solutions as a way out of the current problem.
There was just some very simple (but not easy) business decisions to define
what could be made available within the allocated time frame with the
resources available.

The other issue is VBA itself. Solver may make a comeback in a future version
of Excel 2008 depending on how loud the screams get, but VBA will never see
the light of day on the Mac again. Microsoft would love to kill VBA on Windows
as well, since it is a dead-end code base in terms of their .NET strategy, so
it didn't make any sense to put any effort into a new version of VBA for Mac
Office. Microsoft has pledged that VBA will remain in the next version of
Windows Office (after some reports to the contrary [1]), but they also stopped
licensing Windows VBA to third parties last July and have recommended that new
Windows Office applications and add-ins (like the Solver) be written using
Visual Studio Tools for Applications or Visual Studio Tools for Office, both
.NET environments that have no VBA anywhere and will never be offered on the
Mac. Nothing substantial has been improved in VBA for years, so it's clear
that it is on it's way out on Windows too. Much like Microsoft's old C++ GUI
MFC library, it's just a matter of how long it takes to kill it off.

Microsoft is treading on thin ice here. There is another subtle point here on
backwards compatibility that goes back to the introduction of .NET. VBA was an
outgrowth of Visual Basic. When .NET was evolving, Microsoft realized that the
original Visual Basic language could not be turned into a .NET language as-is.
So they enhanced the language and chose to break backward compatibility with
old VB code. Before switching to the Mac when OS X came out, I was a long time
Windows developer, and this was the first time I ever saw Microsoft ruin
backward compatibility on purpose (See [2] for an interesting essay about this
from the former Microsoft developer who wrote the original VBA spec). Visual
Basic.NET is a completely different beast, and older non-.NET VB code won't
run in .NET. When all of the VB coders realized that their VB code needed a
line-by-line port to work in VB.NET, a lot of them stopped, and for the first
time, lifted their head out of the sand, and looked around for other
solutions. The thought was, "If I need to rewrite this anyways, maybe I should
use Java/Python/Ruby/PHP/Flash/etc.". And that's what a lot of them did.

What's this have to do with Mac Office? Well, there's a similar force at work
here. From version 1.0 until Excel 2008, I never considered using anything
except Excel. It was the gold standard - both for compatibility and for
features. But both compatibility and features have taken a big hit with Excel
2008, and now I'm looking at the vast number of spreadsheets I have with VBA
code that won't run in Mac Excel 2008 today and probably won't run in Windows
Excel 2010 (or whenever VBA disappears completely), and I'm making that same
assessment - If my features are gone and I'm breaking backwards compatibility,
why stick with Excel? There's no way I'm using Applescript to automate
spreadsheets - it's a far worse language than VBA ever was. So I'm pausing to
look around for other options. And you know what? It's kind of refreshing. I
don't expect to find a drop-in Excel replacement, but the market forces will
fill the void in time.

I'm not really frustrated by any of this. I can't say that I agree with the
choices Microsoft made for Mac Office 2008, but I assume they made them after
thorough realization of the various issues that would arise. And I'm not
anti-Microsoft. I very much like the MacBU and have a lot of respect for what
they accomplish, but in the end, I don't think this was their call. I¹ll be it was.

[1] <http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/01/14/office_mac_08_vba/>
[2] <http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html>

 

[Erwin Tenhumberg]

You might want to watch the development of the Mac OS X version of OpenOffice.org as OpenOffice.org 3.0 will include a solver. You can follow the development of the Mac version of OpenOffice.org by frequently taking a look at the following blog:

&nbsp;&lt;http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/&gt;

I'm using an early build of the OpenOffice.org Mac version on my MacBook Pro and even though it's still some kind of alpha version, OpenOffice.org has been very stable. I use it for my day-to-day productive work.

Erwin Tenhumberg
Sun Microsystems

 

[Rud Faden]

The fact that solver is missing makes this the first downgrade from microsoft