Style for Hanging Indent in numbered paragraph

N

Norm

Beginner question I fear. ;)

How does one set up a style for numbered paragraphs so that after the
first line there is a hanging indent aligned under the same point (first
character) of the first line but that indent adjusts if the paragraph
number rises to double (or even triple) digits? Hope that is clear.

Also, in Word 5.1a, one could reorder numbered paragraphs with a Word
Tool if one changed the numbers on several paragraphs. Possible in Word
2008?

Thanks for any tips.
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Norm:

I was really hoping you wouldn't ask this one :)

No, it is NOT a "Beginner Question" :) It is the most complex question
there is about Word :) If you have gotten this far, you are entering
"Documentation Professional" territory. Welcome to the deep end :)

OK: Let's get started. Sadly, NONE of this stuff is in the Word Help.
This is the only place you can read it.

First, let's describe how this mechanism works. You need to know this, so
pay attention, there will be a test tomorrow :)

In Microsoft Word, "bullets" and "numbering" are the same thing (exactly the
same thing!). Word simply remembers not to try to increment bullets.

That "thing" is a "List". There is another type of numbering, "Field-based
numbering", but it is rare, so let's keep this simple and ignore it for now.

A List has a "name" which we call a "List Style". A List Style is simply
the label we use so we can tell which list we are using. Word sticks the
label on a container that contains all the formatting for the list. So the
answer to your question is going to be "create a List Style", but first we
need to explain how it all works, so that you can do that.

To you and I, it appears that there are three kinds of list: Bullets,
Numbers, and Outline. In fact, they are simply different views of the same
thing: a "List". The Outline lists display nine levels and are most often
used for heading numbering. The others have only one level and are usually
employed for paragraph bullets or numbering.

The fundamental unit of a List is the "paragraph". All list numbering is
tied to paragraphs: it cannot exist any other way.

Word's List mechanism works very similar to the HTML numbering mechanism, so
if you know HTML, you already know what I am about to tell you.

To begin, Word places tags in the text to mark the beginning and end of the
List. These tags can enclose the entire document, or they can enclose just
a few paragraphs (even a single paragraph).

The first tag tells us what kind of list it is: either "Un-ordered"
(bullets) or "Ordered" (numbered). In Word, that tag also contains a label
that tells us "which" list this is (because there can be several hundred
lists in a document). It does this by naming the list. In the user
interface, we see this as the "List" name. (Just remember that: I will come
back to it in a minute.)

Within those tags, each paragraph that is a member of a list contains a
"List Item" tag that says that this paragraph is a member of a list, and
that tag contains the name of the List that the paragraph is a member of.

Let me just underline that: a paragraph may have an "LI" tag on it, which
makes it a member of a list, or it may not. So in any given set of
paragraphs, some may be members, and some paragraphs may not.

An Outline list can have non-list paragraphs in the middle, the others can
not. To see which paragraphs are a member of a particular list, click once
on the bullet or number at the front of one of the paragraphs. A gray
highlight will appear on the bullet or number of all the other paragraphs
that are a member of the same list. Remember this: when you come to fix the
"random numbering" problems, the first thing you do is click on a number to
see which paragraphs are a member of each list.

One of the most voracious "traps for young players" is that a document may
have two numbered lists: "Norm's List" and "John's List". The two lists
may look exactly the same. If you look in a car park, you may see two green
Fords. Both exactly the same model, each equally bad: but one of them is
mine and you can't have it! The other is yours and my key won't fit!

When the numbering is wrong on just 'some' of the paragraphs, that's because
they are members of different lists. The cure is to use the Format Painter
to copy the formatting from one of the paragraphs that is correct, and click
the paragraphs that are wrong: the List tags will be copied to the wrong
paragraphs and the numbering will instantly come right!

OK, now we have covered the structure of a list so you know how these things
work, we can now set about answering your question. PLEASE don't expect
yourself to get all of this in one sitting: this is the most complex part of
Word there is: it took me months to understand all of this stuff... It does
NOT help that Microsoft tried to hide all this complexity from users, so we
spend months stumbling around in the dark, navigating by feel. It's like
trying to work out what is in a cellar with the lights turned out: you crack
your shins a lot...

So: To set up ANY kind of numbering, Word must first have a List Style. If
you don't create it, Word will create it for you. Which is a real pain,
because Word hides the List Styles that it creates from you, so if you allow
this to happen, you will get very sore shins because the lights will never
come on! Always create List Styles yourself, so you know what they're
called!

Before you can create a List Style, you must have a paragraph style for each
level in the list. For paragraph numbering, often there is only one level.
But for legal numbering, there may be up to nine levels:
S1.A.I.(1.a.i).[1.A]

The paragraph styles you use in a list must NOT be used for anything else in
this document. So you CAN NOT use Normal or Body Text in List Styles: if
you do, all hell breaks loose: you get numbers breaking out like measles all
over "everything".

Word has a set of built-in styles created exactly for this purpose, named
List Number through List Number 9. They are all hidden until they are used
in a document, and List Number 5 through 9 do not even exist until you use
them. This is the same concept as a "Scotch and Soda": we know there is
such a thing because we have seen them on TV, but you do not HAVE one until
I pour you one. With the List-series of styles, we know they can be in a
document, but until we use them, they won't be there.

Create a blank "trash" document we can play with, and follow me through from
here, so you can see what I am talking about. The following explanation
depends on the document not containing any existing lists, so please create
a blank one.

Go into Format>Style, and find the List Number style. Remember I said it
will be hidden until it is used? In the Formatting Palette or in the Format
Style dialog, look for the "List:" drop-down and change it to "All Styles",
otherwise you won't be able to see the List Number series of styles.

Set the font and paragraph spacing properties to your tastes. Don't bother
setting the tabs and left indents, they will be inherited from the List
Style when we create it.

To answer your question, you need only one style: List Number. But while
you are in there, I would set up List Number 2, List Number 3, and List
Number 4, because you may use them later.

OK your way out.

Go back to Format>Style and choose "New Style". In the dialog that appears,
change the Type to "List" and make the Name something you will remember.
Let's call it "Norm Numbering". In the bottom left of the dialog, check the
box that says "Add to Template". We're going to do a lot of work on this
thing, so let's make sure we save it.

The Formatting Palette is just a disaster for doing this kind of thing, it
doesn't show you enough and makes these very common style operations
impossibly difficult, so I always close it and use Format>Style to work on
Styles. Keeping the Formatting Palette closed has the added benefit of
making Word behave better.

If you are using Format>Style... You can find a style by simply hitting the
first letter of its name: the list will scroll to that point and you can see
what you want.

So: We are in the Modify Style dialog, the name has been set to "Norm
Numbering", the Type is List. Set "Start At" to "1". Unless you really do
want to start numbering at some other number: and trust me, you DON'T!.
Make this a rule" "Start At" is always set to "1", never change it.
Because when you change it, ALL of the lists using this List Style will
start at whatever you set, which can be extremely disconcerting in a
document containing hundreds of lists.

Set "Apply formatting to:" to "1st Level".

If we were making a multi-level list, for example for Headings or for Legal
Numbering, we would do all of the following for each level that we want to
use: up to 9 which is the maximum permitted.

Now, the dialog you are seeing is a "generic" dialog. They were too lazy to
make a dialog just for this purpose, so it's very confusing: half the stuff
on it is disabled, and the bits that aren't are out of context, which makes
the whole job unnecessarily difficult. Just ignore all the rubbish and look
for the drop-down at the bottom left in which the word "Format" appears.

Drop that down and you will see that only three options are enabled: Font,
Numbering, and Shortcut Key.

Leave "Font" alone: we are going to inherit the font from the List Number
paragraph style that we set up earlier. It is possible to have the number
in a different font from the paragraph text, but it looks strange and makes
everything a lot more complex: how bad do you want this to get? Word is a
bit like a candy store: it is up to us responsible grownups to resist
temptation (most of the time, anyway...)

Choose "Numbering". Remember that I told you that Bullets and Numbering are
the same thing? This is why I told you that: if you were making a Bulleted
List, you would still choose Numbering here.

Now you will see a familiar dialog that you may have seen before: "Outline
Numbering".

This is one-third of the dialog that people see if they are ever silly
enough to hit the Bullets and Numbering choice on the Format menu. Here,
the other two thirds are not shown because a List Style can only ever be an
Outline type. In Format>Bullets and Numbering, all three kinds are
available, which enables people who have never been able to find any decent
information in the Help (because it's not there!) to achieve a
brightly-coloured formatting fruit-salad in their document, because they
can't understand what's going on. Shortly thereafter, their document goes
"bang" they lose all their work, and they blame Microsoft.

I think that's justified. Microsoft would claim the reason the document got
broken was because the user created conflicting definitions in the
numbering. Which is true. But that is because the user could not find
information to show them how to avoid that. It's a bit like taking all the
instruments out of an airplane cockpit: it may be "fun" to fly in good
weather while your luck holds, but as soon as you fly into a cloud the
excitement level rises to pure terror, and a crash is the inevitable result.

OK, back to the Outline Numbering dialog: ( are you paying attention? I
told you there would be a test later...)

The dialog shows you a series of pictures of the standard built-in numbering
formats. To save work, you pick the one that is closest to the style you
are going to create. You can, in fact, create "any" numbering structure
your heart desires from any of the samples, but there is less to do if you
choose a sample close to what you want.

First, observe the "Reset" button in the bottom left corner. This is your
only indication that the selection you are looking at is non-standard.
Click in each of the squares. If the Reset button enables, that square has
been customised from the built-in default. For the purposes of this
exercise, click Reset any time you see it enabled, so we both stay on the
same page in this example.

Now, you will see the words "Heading 1", "Heading 2" and "Heading 3" appear
in the samples in the bottom row? These are the pre-configured Lists that
make Heading Numbering work. These lists are permanently welded to the
Heading 1 through Heading 9 range of built-in styles. You can customise
them, but you cannot break the link to those specific styles. These samples
are important: they give a user who has no idea how this stuff works a
fighting chance of getting Heading Numbering and their Table of Contents to
"just work".

In this exercise, you wanted a list of numbered paragraphs, so we do NOT
choose any of the bottom row: it would simply make our job harder. Nor do
we choose the one on the top right, which shows bullets. You don't want a
bulleted list, so stay out of there: you "could" change that sample to give
you numbering, but if you did, you would be making things very complicated:
let's leave fancy tricks to next time, right?

That leaves you a choice of two samples: one with ) parentheses as
separators, the other with periods. Choose whichever one you like, and
click Customise.

Now you see the "Customise Outline Numbering" dialog. You remember you were
asking about how to create a hanging indent list? This is where you do it.

At the left of the dialog, you see a tall narrow column labelled "Level".
The List Style has nine levels: you use this field to choose each level you
want to work on. If we were going to create four levels, you would choose
level 1 and make all your definitions, then choose Level 2 and make the
definitions for the second level, then choose Level 3, etc...

In this case, we are going to define only one of the levels. The dialog
will open set to "1" and we leave it that way. (The dialog will be set to a
different level if your cursor in the document text is in a paragraph which
is at a different level in the list, but currently you are in a blank
document which does not have any list paragraphs, so this time it will open
set to "1").

At the top of the dialog there is a "Number Format" box. In it, you will
see a grey number and the separator character (either a right parenthesis )
or a period). The number is a placeholder that shows you where the
generated number will occur in the format, and it is grey to show you that
it's generated, not text.

I will take this opportunity to show you one of the big secrets of this
dialog: you can't find this documented ANYWHERE :) Remember I said you can
have nine levels? Well, which one are we looking at?

Just for demonstration, change the Level field to "5". You see that we can
now see FIVE number "1"s appearing? Which one is which? When you get to
advanced numbering, you will need to know. It is not at all intuitive...

In the Number Format field, move your cursor left and carefully select
precisely ONE of the grey numbers, NOT including any other character.
Observe the Previous Level box below: see how it changes to show you which
List Style level is generating that specific number? If the Previous Level
box goes blank, the number you have selected is from the CURRENT level (5,
in this case). If you have selected any other number, that box will tell
you which level is generating it.

Try to remember this: when you come to create fancy mixed numbering formats,
you will need to know this. Now please set the Level box back to "1" so we
know what we're doing.

Notice the Preview window to the right? That is showing you what a
paragraph using this level of your list will look like. It's not completely
accurate, but it's close enough to see what you are doing.

Below the Number Format box, we have another labelled "Number Style". This
controls the style of number that will be generated at the current level.

Drop this down and you will see you have a variety of choices, including
"None". There are times when you want some levels to have numbering and the
rest of the levels to have none. Headings is a classic example, where you
might number Headings 1, 2, and 3 but not Heading 4 or 5. You might then
start again at Heading 6 and set levels 6, 7 and 8 to have numbering and 9
not. This gives you all the heading numbering you need for a Technical
manual: you put the word "Chapter" in front of the Level 1, you put the word
"Appendix" ahead of the Level 6, and you have all of the headings in the
whole book beautifully and reliably numbered in a single list.

We're not doing fancy tricks here, so put the Number Style box back to "1,
2, 3..." and let's move on.

To the right of the Number Style box is another labelled "Start At". Every
time this list appears, it will start at the number you set here. So if you
set it to something other than "1" I will break your fingers: you are going
to have enough to do for now without increasing the level of complexity.
Those at the front of the class who were paying attention will remember
that we have seen this field before, two dialog boxes back, in the generic
dialog. It is the same property: it should not have appeared in that other
dialog box because it's difficult to see what it is doing there: here it is
obvious: it is setting the starting number for the selected level of this
list.

The field below is labelled "Previous Level Number". Because we are
currently selected to look at Level 1, that field is greyed out: you cannot
have a level previous to "1".

To the right of that field is another drop-down labelled "Font". Again, we
have seen it before, and again, if you touch it I will break your fingers
:) This enables you to set the font for this level of this numbering style
to something different from the font of the paragraph. You may use that
later when you come to set up complex heading numbering with fancy chapter
numbers. But if you play with it now, you risk having your document
formatting spinning out of control because you cannot keep all the
complexities separate in your mind.

Moving down the dialog, we have the Number Position drop-down. Currently it
will be set to "left". This controls the position of the generated number
in the number block. Let me explain:

Let's assume you are numbering a huge list that will go to three digits:

888. My paragraph text.

Word maintains a count of the number of paragraphs in each list in a
document, so it knows instantly when the count gets to three digits. When
that happens, it reserves a horizontal block of space big enough to contain
three digits [...].

The number position drop-down is controlling where in that box the number
will sit. Left means [1..], right means [..1] and centre means [.1.].

In your case, set it to "Left". The only time you change this is if you are
creating lists that will always appear on a single page and you want to have
the numbers aligned in order of magnitude. For this list, you won't get 100
paragraphs on a page, so it's better to align left so you do not produce a
ragged left margin.

The next box is "Aligned at". That controls the position of the left edge
of the number block (not the number, but the space where it will appear).
Unless you have a reason to do something else, you set this to the same
value as the left indent of your base paragraph style.

Let's assume that you have your Body Text paragraph set to 2.5 cm indent,
and your list number style is based on that. Your List Number style will
also be set to 2.5 cm left indent.

So set "Aligned at" to 2.5 cm, so your List Number "numbers" align with the
left margin of your Body Text style. Some people set a little more indent
(say 0.25 cm extra) on the numbering, which produces a visually pleasing
effect provided you remember to keep it consistent. For now: let's keep it
simple :)

The position we have just set marks the left position of the number. Now,
we need to move the text to the right to make room for three digits (this is
the real answer to the question you asked!)

In the Text Position block, you have two fields: "Indent at" and "Add tab
stop at". Indent at sets the left margin of the text on the lines below the
number. For three digits at 12 points you need 3 x 12 = 36 points of space
for the number. If the text gets any closer than 20 points to the right
edge of the number, it begins to visually merge with the number which makes
it hard to read. So your spacing should be set to 56 points minimum. 56
points is close enough to 0.8 of an inch (72 points to an inch). The
default is 0.63 cm (half an inch). You need to set "Indent at" to about 0.8
inches (2 cm) greater than your "Aligned at" value.

Here's a tip: Set the "Add tab at" value to the SAME value you set the
"Indent at" margin to. That makes for a nice square left margin. Hey,
guess what: we FINALLY got to the answer to your question :) That was it
:)

Now you have room for the three digit number and the tab. If you were
watching the preview, you would have seen the black lines move to show you a
nice square left margin, which is how you know you got it right.

You have completed defining your List Style, Now, we need to associate your
Paragraph Style with that. At the bottom left of the dialog is a small blue
disclosure triangle that they forgot to put a label on. Click it, and it
will reveal the rest of the "works" for you.

The "Link level to style" box associates each level of the List Style with
its Paragraph Style. Since we have only one level in this List Style, we
need do only one: set that box to "List Number".

The box below is labelled "Follow number with". That should have
automatically set itself to "Tab character" when we defined a tab position
in "Add tab at". If it hasn't, set it that way now.

The Legal Style checkbox does nothing unless we have multiple levels, but
leave it unchecked. Everything else is greyed out until we have more than
one level.

You can OK your way all the way out now :)

To APPLY this style, you can EITHER apply the Paragraph Style, or you can
apply the List Style: it doesn't matter. Whichever one you apply will
automatically apply the other. Normally, people would apply the Paragraph
Style, which will bring the List Style in.

The reason we have to explicitly define the Paragraph Style into the List
Style is to allow the flexibility of NOT doing so. The Legal Fraternity
demanded this: because in a legal document the numbering structure and the
formatting are often independent. But for the rest of us, it creates a trap
that leads to broken documents.

A user "can" apply a List Style to some paragraphs formatted with Normal
style, and again to some formatted with Body Text style. If they do, the
paragraph properties of the paragraph style will be overridden by the list
style. All good: UNTIL they come to copy the text. Then, all hell breaks
loose, because the formatting at the destination may not include the three
styles involved. In which case, high entertainment is guaranteed, and a
broken document follows shortly after.

For stable, reliable, maintainable numbering in the modern versions of Word,
I recommend:

* Always create a list style for each kind of bullet or numbering.

* Always associate a paragraph style with each of the levels of the List
Style you are going to use.

* Always apply bullets or numbering by applying the associated Paragraph
Style.

* NEVER use Format>Bullets and Numbering.

* NEVER change the numbering properties of just a few paragraphs. Doing so
breaks the list, and doing it twice will probably break the document.
Always make changes to the whole list.

There you go! Don't forget: Exam tomorrow to see if you were paying
attention :)

Hope this helps


Beginner question I fear. ;)

How does one set up a style for numbered paragraphs so that after the
first line there is a hanging indent aligned under the same point (first
character) of the first line but that indent adjusts if the paragraph
number rises to double (or even triple) digits? Hope that is clear.

Also, in Word 5.1a, one could reorder numbered paragraphs with a Word
Tool if one changed the numbers on several paragraphs. Possible in Word
2008?

Thanks for any tips.

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]
 
N

Norm

Hi John:

John McGhie said:
I was really hoping you wouldn't ask this one :)

Given the length of your response, I both thank you and wish I hadn't
asked. :)

I'll look at this as a learning opportunity. I'll respond when I
surface. ;)

Thanks.
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Norm:

{Giggle} I am writing a book on Word: you just copped the first draft of
the chapter on "How to define List Numbering" :)

Cheers


Hi John:



Given the length of your response, I both thank you and wish I hadn't
asked. :)

I'll look at this as a learning opportunity. I'll respond when I
surface. ;)

Thanks.

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]
 
N

Norm

Hi John:


John McGhie said:
{Giggle} I am writing a book on Word: you just copped the first draft of
the chapter on "How to define List Numbering" :)

And here I thought that was just for me. ;) ;)

I suspect the preface of said book will say something about how this
book is for those who really....really...... desire to enter
"Documentation Professional" territory.

Even if I did, I would fail the entrance exam. :-(

I'm waiting for one of those frequent sleepless nights to tackle this
tomb you were so "kind" to send/post. :) Full moon here, it may be
time!

And cheers.
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Norm:

Well... I did write it especially for you, I just kept a copy to put in the
book :)

Actually that won't quite get you to "Documentation Professional" level :)
However: Once you have a little practice at what I sent you, you will be
well ahead of at least half the people I interview for jobs as Technical
Writers :)

What I sent is "Skilled User" level (level 3 of 5). But it certainly points
you in the correct direction :)

To get to Level 4 (Power User) you would need to be able to define nine
levels with mixed bullets and numbering, create the list style, manage the
templates, and record a simple macro to do the defining for you.

To go on to Level 5 (Expert User or Documentation Professional) you would
need to be able to define seven kinds of List Style in a Template, make them
all Theme-compatible, write a macro to set them up, write macros to find and
fix instances that were wrong, and create templates that would help everyone
else to make it all work.

And I can tell you for nothing that nearly all the people who apply to me
for jobs as Technical Writers would flunk the exam :) They do! It's one
of my favourite interview questions :)

When I need to find a Technical Writer, I can spend hours wading through
resumes and ringing around to find out by how much the claims within them
have been "embellished"; or I can simply spin the laptop around in front of
them on the desk and say "Show me how you would set up numbering to number
three levels of heading, and Three levels of Appendix, and give me two
un-numbered heading levels, and an un-numbered Appendix level."

Numbering is such a core skill in Technical Writing that if they ARE a
Technical Writer, they will do it in less than ten minutes while I watch.
If they can't, they're not... :)

Take it slow, and just keep at it: trust me, *I* did not pick it up on the
first attempt either ‹ but it IS worth it, because it will completely put an
end to the "funny numbering blues" :)

Now if I could only learn to spell...

Cheers


Hi John:




And here I thought that was just for me. ;) ;)

I suspect the preface of said book will say something about how this
book is for those who really....really...... desire to enter
"Documentation Professional" territory.

Even if I did, I would fail the entrance exam. :-(

I'm waiting for one of those frequent sleepless nights to tackle this
tomb you were so "kind" to send/post. :) Full moon here, it may be
time!

And cheers.

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]
 
N

Norm

Hi John:

John McGhie said:
Well... I did write it especially for you, I just kept a copy to put in the
book :)

I knew it. You wouldn't disappoint and hurt my feelings. ;)
Numbering is such a core skill in Technical Writing that if they ARE a
Technical Writer, they will do it in less than ten minutes while I watch.
If they can't, they're not... :)

Fortunately..... for both of us.... I'm not applying. ;) I know the
result. ;)
Take it slow, and just keep at it: trust me, *I* did not pick it up on the
first attempt either ‹ but it IS worth it, because it will completely put an
end to the "funny numbering blues" :)

I appreciate. Even if I don't "need" to attain even level 1, I'll enjoy
the learning process. Thanks much.
Now if I could only learn to spell...

Not a problem..... When my wife shouts for help with her Mac, I shout
for help with my spelling.......... I shout for help more often. :)

Cheers.
 
J

John McGhie

Can I have your wife's phone number? :)


Not a problem..... When my wife shouts for help with her Mac, I shout
for help with my spelling.......... I shout for help more often. :)

Cheers.

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]
 
N

Norm

Hi John:


John McGhie said:
Can I have your wife's phone number? :)

She regretfully declines due to a full schedule answering her husband's
spelling questions...... and also listening to his answers to her Mac
questions. But for that......

Cheers
 
N

Norm

Hi John:

Well..... Sunday AM in U. S. of A. so perhaps a good time to commence
this challenge from John. ;) We'll see.....

And, please, no rush to respond quickly...... or ever. ;)


John McGhie said:
I was really hoping you wouldn't ask this one :)
;)



First, let's describe how this mechanism works. You need to know this, so
pay attention, there will be a test tomorrow :)

Now the pressure is really on..... I think I feel a cold, or a meeting,
coming on for tomorrow.

To you and I, it appears that there are three kinds of list: Bullets,
Numbers, and Outline.

What do you mean by "appears"?
In fact, they are simply different views of the same
thing: a "List". The Outline lists display nine levels and are most often
used for heading numbering. The others have only one level and are usually
employed for paragraph bullets or numbering.

I tried, but failed ;), in going through All Styles to find 9, 1, and
1. Should I be able to see them with the names: outline, bullets, and
numbers?

To begin, Word places tags in the text to mark the beginning and end of the
List. These tags can enclose the entire document, or they can enclose just
a few paragraphs (even a single paragraph).
Let me just underline that: a paragraph may have an "LI" tag on it, which
makes it a member of a list, or it may not. So in any given set of
paragraphs, some may be members, and some paragraphs may not.

So the ones that are not 'return' to some other Style?
An Outline list can have non-list paragraphs in the middle, the others can
not. To see which paragraphs are a member of a particular list, click once
on the bullet or number at the front of one of the paragraphs. A gray
highlight will appear on the bullet or number of all the other paragraphs
that are a member of the same list. Remember this: when you come to fix the
"random numbering" problems, the first thing you do is click on a number to
see which paragraphs are a member of each list.

I created a one paragraph bullet list and a one paragraph numbered list
from the Format Menu/Bullets and Numbering. I notice in the Style window
it now says for both "List Paragraph". As it should be from what you
said above but the two are not differentiated? Think I missed something
already.

OK, now we have covered the structure of a list so you know how these things
work, we can now set about answering your question.

And I already had some questions. I'm learning...... but I fear slowly.
:-(

PLEASE don't expect
yourself to get all of this in one sitting: this is the most complex part of
Word there is: it took me months to understand all of this stuff... It does
NOT help that Microsoft tried to hide all this complexity from users, so we
spend months stumbling around in the dark, navigating by feel. It's like
trying to work out what is in a cellar with the lights turned out: you crack
your shins a lot...

Does MS do this consciously, hiding this stuff, or is it an unconscious
trait in those that have the Microsoft gene? ;)


I better take a brain, such as it is, break......

OK..... back. I'm listening!
To set up ANY kind of numbering, Word must first have a List Style. If
you don't create it, Word will create it for you. Which is a real pain,
because Word hides the List Styles that it creates from you, so if you allow
this to happen, you will get very sore shins because the lights will never
come on! Always create List Styles yourself, so you know what they're
called!

Hmmm..... so if I have a document and decide to number several
paragraphs to make emphasize some points, will Word create a list style
even though I've not changed the style?
Before you can create a List Style, you must have a paragraph style for each
level in the list. For paragraph numbering, often there is only one level.
But for legal numbering, there may be up to nine levels:
S1.A.I.(1.a.i).[1.A]

Lost.... you must create a "new" style for every level in that document?
The paragraph styles you use in a list must NOT be used for anything else in
this document. So you CAN NOT use Normal or Body Text in List Styles: if
you do, all hell breaks loose: you get numbers breaking out like measles all
over "everything".

So, if I'm blithely typing away, and decide to add some points that are
not of any change in style but for adding numbers (no indenting,
italics, etc.), then I MUST create a new style not base on Normal or my
normal bt. Is that correct?
Word has a set of built-in styles created exactly for this purpose, named
List Number through List Number 9. They are all hidden until they are used
in a document, and List Number 5 through 9 do not even exist until you use
them. This is the same concept as a "Scotch and Soda": we know there is
such a thing because we have seen them on TV, but you do not HAVE one until
I pour you one. With the List-series of styles, we know they can be in a
document, but until we use them, they won't be there.

I think this answers my above. But I'll leave in the above just in case
you think I've missed the/a point. Thanks.

Create a blank "trash" document we can play with, and follow me through from
here, so you can see what I am talking about. The following explanation
depends on the document not containing any existing lists, so please create
a blank one.

Theres should be some samples for those of us who don't do this. I'll
cobble one together but me thinks one is floating around laughing at me.

BTW, after I formatted with Bullets and Numbering, I tried to delete the
entire list. However, Word gives an alert at the last one and won't let
me. Why? Thanks, I think there is a Word concept hiding in that question.

Go into Format>Style, and find the List Number style. Remember I said it
will be hidden until it is used? In the Formatting Palette or in the Format
Style dialog, look for the "List:" drop-down and change it to "All Styles",
otherwise you won't be able to see the List Number series of styles.

Should I be able to skip to the "L" s in the Formatting Pallette like
one can in the Format Style dialog?
Set the font and paragraph spacing properties to your tastes. Don't bother
setting the tabs and left indents, they will be inherited from the List
Style when we create it.

Are you saying to create a New Style or Modify? I'm going to create a
new which is probably wrong. :-(
To answer your question, you need only one style: List Number. But while
you are in there, I would set up List Number 2, List Number 3, and List
Number 4, because you may use them later.

Given my question above I'll wait until this rookie is confident he made
the correct turn.
OK your way out.

Go back to Format>Style and choose "New Style". In the dialog that appears,
change the Type to "List" and make the Name something you will remember.
Let's call it "Norm Numbering".

So: We are in the Modify Style dialog, the name has been set to "Norm
Numbering", the Type is List.

Nope.... I'm in New Style

Now, the dialog you are seeing is a "generic" dialog.

I have still not selected "OK". Okay?
Now you will see a familiar dialog that you may have seen before: "Outline
Numbering".

This is one-third of the dialog that people see if they are ever silly
enough to hit the Bullets and Numbering choice on the Format menu.

And above you found out I could not wait, so I selected it while reading
your first page or so.... ;)

OK, back to the Outline Numbering dialog: ( are you paying attention? I
told you there would be a test later...)

I am.... STILL ...... and it is now Sunday AFTERNOON in the USA. ;) ;)

That leaves you a choice of two samples: one with ) parentheses as
separators, the other with periods. Choose whichever one you like, and
click Customise.

Now you see the "Customise Outline Numbering" dialog. You remember you were
asking about how to create a hanging indent list? This is where you do it.

I vaguely remember my original question. ;) So thanks for the reminder.
Us oldies need those joggers.
At the left of the dialog, you see a tall narrow column labelled "Level".
The List Style has nine levels: you use this field to choose each level you
want to work on. If we were going to create four levels, you would choose
level 1 and make all your definitions, then choose Level 2 and make the
definitions for the second level, then choose Level 3, etc...

I'm 'never' sure in MS dialogs when to click Apply or OK and when to
keep making changes. Any tips? Maybe it is the trial an error approach
that works best.


Try to remember this: when you come to create fancy mixed numbering formats,
you will need to know this. Now please set the Level box back to "1" so we
know what we're doing.

so we know what.... "we're doing." Thanks for the confidence boost.


We're not doing fancy tricks here, so put the Number Style box back to "1,
2, 3..." and let's move on.

To the right of the Number Style box is another labelled "Start At". Every
time this list appears, it will start at the number you set here. So if you
set it to something other than "1" I will break your fingers: you are going
to have enough to do for now without increasing the level of complexity.

and without going to the doc to have the broken finger set!!!!!

To the right of that field is another drop-down labelled "Font". Again, we
have seen it before, and again, if you touch it I will break your fingers
:)

Hope no more than 10 of these warnings! ;)

The next box is "Aligned at". That controls the position of the left edge
of the number block (not the number, but the space where it will appear).
Unless you have a reason to do something else, you set this to the same
value as the left indent of your base paragraph style.

Let's assume that you have your Body Text paragraph set to 2.5 cm indent,
and your list number style is based on that. Your List Number style will
also be set to 2.5 cm left indent.

I think it is set at zero. So I'll leave it. BTW, is "zero" if that is
what I do inherently bad?
So set "Aligned at" to 2.5 cm, so your List Number "numbers" align with the
left margin of your Body Text style. Some people set a little more indent
(say 0.25 cm extra) on the numbering, which produces a visually pleasing
effect provided you remember to keep it consistent. For now: let's keep it
simple :)

I think I'll set at .2 in just so I know it is working.
The position we have just set marks the left position of the number. Now,
we need to move the text to the right to make room for three digits (this is
the real answer to the question you asked!)

Ahhhh..... we are there.... and I just got back from a walk in a little
snow and ice. Refreshed I'm ready.

In the Text Position block, you have two fields: "Indent at" and "Add tab
stop at". Indent at sets the left margin of the text on the lines below the
number. For three digits at 12 points you need 3 x 12 = 36 points of space
for the number. If the text gets any closer than 20 points to the right
edge of the number, it begins to visually merge with the number which makes
it hard to read. So your spacing should be set to 56 points minimum. 56
points is close enough to 0.8 of an inch (72 points to an inch). The
default is 0.63 cm (half an inch).

The indent on the dialog is set at .25" FWIW
You need to set "Indent at" to about 0.8
inches (2 cm) greater than your "Aligned at" value.

I'll set it at 1.0"
Here's a tip: Set the "Add tab at" value to the SAME value you set the
"Indent at" margin to. That makes for a nice square left margin. Hey,
guess what: we FINALLY got to the answer to your question :) That was it
:)

I don't get what Tab set at controls in terms of hanging indents. Need
to visualize use and result. Remember John, I'm at Word level 101 at
best and trying to move to 501. ;)

Now you have room for the three digit number and the tab. If you were
watching the preview, you would have seen the black lines move to show you a
nice square left margin, which is how you know you got it right.

Ah, I see that. But when would I use the tab?

And the next paragraph will be ________ the next number I assume.

So if I want to have a paragraph under number 1 but separate from the
lead paragraph numbered 1 and thus not numbered, I would do _______.

Thanks much. Sorry for these beginner questions.

BTW, when I add a style is it added to the All Style list and the
current doc?
You have completed defining your List Style, Now, we need to associate your
Paragraph Style with that. At the bottom left of the dialog is a small blue
disclosure triangle that they forgot to put a label on. Click it, and it
will reveal the rest of the "works" for you.

What do you mean in this context by "Paragraph Style"?
The "Link level to style" box associates each level of the List Style with
its Paragraph Style. Since we have only one level in this List Style, we
need do only one: set that box to "List Number".

What does this do? And why does "list number" now appear in the Preview
as well as the number?
The box below is labelled "Follow number with". That should have
automatically set itself to "Tab character" when we defined a tab position
in "Add tab at". If it hasn't, set it that way now.

The Legal Style checkbox does nothing unless we have multiple levels, but
leave it unchecked. Everything else is greyed out until we have more than
one level.

You can OK your way all the way out now :)

Got it.
To APPLY this style, you can EITHER apply the Paragraph Style, or you can
apply the List Style: it doesn't matter. Whichever one you apply will
automatically apply the other. Normally, people would apply the Paragraph
Style, which will bring the List Style in.

It now is back on New Style. I'll select OK. And then on Style I'll
select Apply.

But I'm confused if I changed the List or List Number style or "just"
added a new style norm numbering?
The reason we have to explicitly define the Paragraph Style into the List
Style is to allow the flexibility of NOT doing so. The Legal Fraternity
demanded this: because in a legal document the numbering structure and the
formatting are often independent. But for the rest of us, it creates a trap
that leads to broken documents.

A user "can" apply a List Style to some paragraphs formatted with Normal
style, and again to some formatted with Body Text style. If they do, the
paragraph properties of the paragraph style will be overridden by the list
style. All good: UNTIL they come to copy the text. Then, all hell breaks
loose, because the formatting at the destination may not include the three
styles involved. In which case, high entertainment is guaranteed, and a
broken document follows shortly after.

For stable, reliable, maintainable numbering in the modern versions of Word,
I recommend:

* Always create a list style for each kind of bullet or numbering.

That's my norm numbering?
* Always associate a paragraph style with each of the levels of the List
Style you are going to use.

Hmmm.... any problems with this when copying?
* Always apply bullets or numbering by applying the associated Paragraph
Style.

* NEVER use Format>Bullets and Numbering.

Got it.
* NEVER change the numbering properties of just a few paragraphs. Doing so
breaks the list, and doing it twice will probably break the document.
Always make changes to the whole list.

Hmmm... again....hmmm. An example please prof?
There you go! Don't forget: Exam tomorrow to see if you were paying
attention :)

Brain fried! Need to go back out in the cold for another walk.
Hope this helps

It does immensely. Thanks much,

Norm

BTW, my "Also.... " in the post. Is it possible to reorder in Word 2008
as in 5.1a? Thanks again.
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Norm:

Now the pressure is really on..... I think I feel a cold, or a meeting,
coming on for tomorrow.

I shall expect a note. Signed by your wife!
What do you mean by "appears"?

Just that: it 'appears": three different dialogs, same old same old
inside...
I tried, but failed ;), in going through All Styles to find 9, 1, and
1. Should I be able to see them with the names: outline, bullets, and
numbers?

No, you won't see the names unless you get into the Format>Bullets and
Numbering dialog. I am taking you in through Format>Style... So you should
never have to do with the multi-headed Medusa...
So the ones that are not 'return' to some other Style?

Imagine a line of people waiting for a bus. Some may be members of the
Republican Party. Some may be members of the Democratic Party. Some will
not be members of either.

Unless they are wearing a badge, there is no way to tell visually whether a
person is a member of any of those groups.

But they are all members of "People who catch the Number 348 bus". We know
this, because they are all waiting to get on it!

Now imagine a set of paragraphs in a document:

Some paragraphs may have a "Heading" style. Some may have the "Body Text
Style". Others may have a "Normal" style.

But they are all members of the collection "Paragraphs".

Now: Let's consider the First, fifth, and 12th paragraphs in that list of
paragraphs. These are the ones that have the Heading style applied. So we
can say that these paragraphs are members of the "Paragraphs" collection;
and they are ALSO members of the "Headings" collection.

Now: the "Heading" collection may be associated with a List Style. Or it
may not. Usually, it is not; but if you want to use Heading Numbering in
the document, we need to add a list style to the Headings collection.

Let's assume we HAVE added a "HeadingsList" style to the document, and
associated paragraph styles Heading 1 through to Heading 9 with that
HeadingList style.

Now, those three paragraphs WILL be members of the HeadingsList list. They
will remain members of the Paragraphs collection and the Headings
collection, but they have now also been added to the HeadingsList
collection.

Does this mean they now have numbering? No: it does not. It means that
they are now "able to have" numbering. Or bullets. Or nothing. What
happens next depends on the properties we defined into the HeadingsList list
style.

To go back to the people waiting for the bus: they remain members of the
group "People", and they remain members of either the Republican Party or
the Democrat Party, and they remain members of "the group that catches the
348 bus". But whether they actually get onto the bus when it comes depends
on whether or not we have sold them a ticket.

We are getting into "Object Oriented" concepts. Here. This is actually the
way the whole world works, but us old farts are not used to a word-processor
working this way.

Object oriented software works on "things". These "things" have properties.
Some of those properties are themselves "things". And those things, in
turn, have properties.

Let's use the analogy of the bus again. The bus is an "object". It has
some known behaviours (it stinks, it's noisy, and it's always late) and it
has some properties. Two of those properties are windows, and seats.

Each window has a property of "transparency". That Transparency has two
attributes: clean, and dirty.

Each seat has an attribute of "occupancy". The attribute seat.occupancy has
two states (it's a bi-state or "binary" attribute). It can be only one of
"Occupied" and "Vacant".

Now here's where the game becomes interesting, because here is where we
introduce the concept of "Inherited properties" and " Dependent properties".

Consider that the bus has just arrived: the bus has a parent property of
"occupancy". Now for the bus, that property is a tri-state variable:
"Full", "Partially Full" or "Empty".

If the bus arrives "empty", then the property occupancy is inherited by each
seat, and it MUST be "Vacant" or an error occurs (you can't have "people"
sitting in an empty bus).

As soon as the first person walks in and sits down, the occupancy for that
seat toggles to the other available state: Occupied. This breaks the
inheritance between that seat and the bus: the seat no longer inherits the
property "Vacant" because there is a person sitting in it. At the same
instant, the Bus property of occupancy changes to "Partially full".

You can chase these things for hours: it's a poor man's Sudoku :)

To sum up: A word document is composed of paragraphs. Those paragraphs
have properties. Those properties are initially inherited from the Normal
template. The properties determine the behaviour of the paragraph (its
appearance, in this case). To change the behaviour of the paragraph, we
change the properties by setting the attributes of those properties.

Where we came in was we were trying to determine whether this paragraph has
numbers or not. So first we must ask: "Is it a member of a list"? If it
is a member of a list, then we must ask "Does the list have numbers"?. If
either answer is "No", then this paragraph can not have numbers.

If the paragraph is a member of "HeadingsList", then we know that it "could"
have numbers. But if we have not defined any numbers into "HeadingsList"
(you guessed it ‹ by setting its attributes) then this paragraph does not
have any numbers.

But if the answer to both questions is true: the paragraph is a member of
HeadingsList, and HeadingsList has numbers, then yes, this paragraph has
numbers.

This is a simplistic example: I've left out several layers of complexity to
make the explanation simple.
I created a one paragraph bullet list and a one paragraph numbered list
from the Format Menu/Bullets and Numbering. I notice in the Style window
it now says for both "List Paragraph". As it should be from what you
said above but the two are not differentiated? Think I missed something
already.

Yeah. Both paragraphs have been automatically given the paragraph style
"List Paragraph" by Word. They have also each been made members of a list.
Sadly, in an attempt to hide the complexity, Word will not show you WHICH
list they are members of.

Word automatically switched the paragraph style away from Normal, so that if
you DO add bullets or numbering to the list, your whole document does not
get measles.

The paragraphs are each members of one of two hidden lists. Each has a
hidden list style (different for both). This was NOT a great piece of user
interface design.
And I already had some questions. I'm learning...... but I fear slowly.
:-(

No, you are actually learning very fast: the fog will begin to clear in just
a day or so. But right now, you are deep in the midst of the greatest
complexity there is in Word.
Does MS do this consciously, hiding this stuff, or is it an unconscious
trait in those that have the Microsoft gene? ;)

They do it consciously. George Bush and Tony Blair were both very
consciously WRONG. People tried to tell them. We have tried to tell
Microsoft. Students of pedagogy have tried for years to tell Microsoft.

The issue is very simple: "Seeing is believing". People cannot learn
things unless they see the results of their actions. Computer companies
start with a severe handicap: they lie for a living, so users never believe
a thing that they say. Unless they see it happen.

So if you want people to learn Word, you have to let them see what is
happening. But Microsoft's Marketing department and Legal department are
absolutely determined to prevent people seeing what is happening. Funny
that: they're the ones that tell the fibs, so they do not want to leave the
place littered with messy evidence that would contradict them.
Hmmm..... so if I have a document and decide to number several
paragraphs to make emphasize some points, will Word create a list style
even though I've not changed the style?

Yes it will. Yes, it does. You've got it :)
Before you can create a List Style, you must have a paragraph style for each
level in the list. For paragraph numbering, often there is only one level.
But for legal numbering, there may be up to nine levels:
S1.A.I.(1.a.i).[1.A]

Lost.... you must create a "new" style for every level in that document?

No, I said "for every level in that list". There can be an unlimited number
of lists in a document. But for each level in the list, there must be a
paragraph style that contains the level number.

This is easiest to see in heading numbering:

1 Heading 1 ‹ level 1
1.1 Heading 2 ‹ level 2
1.1.1 Heading 3 ‹ level 3

Etc.
So, if I'm blithely typing away, and decide to add some points that are
not of any change in style but for adding numbers (no indenting,
italics, etc.), then I MUST create a new style not base on Normal or my
normal bt. Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct. If you simply "apply numbers" instead of applying a
style that contains numbers, then under the covers, Word will create a new
paragraph style, switch to it, and attach that paragraph style to a list.

Which all works swimmingly until things go wrong. When they do, you can't
fix the list because you can't see the components.

If, on the other hand, you had correctly defined List Number as a member of
a numbered list, then when you applied the style "List Number" you would get
your numbers, and you would know that you just made those paragraphs members
of the NumberedList list, and that all other paragraphs in the document that
had "List Number" as their paragraph style were using exactly the same
NumberedList list for their number formatting.

Which is why I recommend that you set up List Styles correctly. It takes
five minutes longer (OK then, 15 minutes longer...) but you have to do it
only once in your lifetime. If you don't do it, you will waste half an hour
fixing the numbering in each document you get, for the rest of your lifetime
:)

Theres should be some samples for those of us who don't do this. I'll
cobble one together but me thinks one is floating around laughing at me.

Yes, there are examples in every blank Word document. I just don't want you
to use them because they are set up "wrongly".
BTW, after I formatted with Bullets and Numbering, I tried to delete the
entire list. However, Word gives an alert at the last one and won't let
me. Why? Thanks, I think there is a Word concept hiding in that question.

Yes. You attempted to delete the last member of a collection. If you were
able to do that, the collection would collapse and that would corrupt the
document. Once you "create" a collection, it must always contain at least
one member, or the document is corrupt.

It is OK to have a document with no Lists collection, but as soon as it has
a Lists collection, it must have at least one List. Same principle prevents
you deleting the Normal style, because if you did, the Styles collection
would collapse.
Should I be able to skip to the "L" s in the Formatting Pallette like
one can in the Format Style dialog?

Yes, you should, but no, you can't. It's a design bug. Use the
Format>Style entry and piss the Formatting Palette off: it's not ready for
prime time yet (and never will be, since the PC side of the fence dropped
it...)
Are you saying to create a New Style or Modify? I'm going to create a
new which is probably wrong. :-(

As a rule of thumb "Don't create when you can customise". In this specific
instance, it does not matter whether you create or modify: however, it's
always better to modify. If you want this style to be called "List Number"
you HAVE to modify, because it's a built-in style so Word will not permit
you to delete, rename, or over-write it.

This is YOUR document, not a sacred text. Hit it with a meat-axe. Remember
"Bend Word to YOUR will." Don't be timid with it: you have to let it know
who's boss.
Given my question above I'll wait until this rookie is confident he made
the correct turn.

Neither of us will live that long: get on with it!!
Nope.... I'm in New Style

Look again: I think the title of the dialog changes when you go to the next
step, because after the instant when you "create" it, you are now
"modifying" it. Maybe I typed the wrong thing...
I vaguely remember my original question. ;) So thanks for the reminder.
Us oldies need those joggers.

What was the question?...
I'm 'never' sure in MS dialogs when to click Apply or OK and when to
keep making changes. Any tips? Maybe it is the trial an error approach
that works best.

Me either: When in doubt, click OK. You can always come back if that
closes the dialog. "Apply" is a bit braver: because you cannot easily see
what you are applying this "to". I would stay away from "Apply" while you
are defining things.
Hope no more than 10 of these warnings! ;)

I find you can re-use fingers after about six weeks :)
I think it is set at zero. So I'll leave it. BTW, is "zero" if that is
what I do inherently bad?

No: This value is "the distance from the left margin of the page". If you
want this level of the list to be on the left margin of the page, "0" is
exactly correct.
I think I'll set at .2 in just so I know it is working.

This is a visual thing: if YOU like it, it is right, don't let anyone tell
you differently :)
Ahhhh..... we are there.... and I just got back from a walk in a little
snow and ice. Refreshed I'm ready.

If I wanted you to escape down the road to the Pub I would have distracted
your wife for you!! Since you went for a beverage without a clearance, I'm
now going to tell her...
I don't get what Tab set at controls in terms of hanging indents. Need
to visualize use and result. Remember John, I'm at Word level 101 at
best and trying to move to 501. ;)

The tab controls the position of the text on the FIRST line. This is how
Word does hanging indents.

"Aligned at" sets the position of the bullet or number, as an offset from
the page margin (can be 0).

"Indent at" sets the left margin of all 'subsequent' lines of the paragraph,
as an offset from the page margin.

"Add tab stop at" then sets a tab on the FIRST line where the text will
begin after the number.
Ah, I see that. But when would I use the tab?

You won't, Word will. It will automatically tab the text in when it adds
the number.
And the next paragraph will be ________ the next number I assume.

Ignore that question for now: the answer is "Yes" except when it's "No" :)
So if I want to have a paragraph under number 1 but separate from the
lead paragraph numbered 1 and thus not numbered, I would do _______.

You would apply a different style, or you would "Skip Numbering". For now,
apply a different style.
BTW, when I add a style is it added to the All Style list and the
current doc?

The All Style List IS the current doc, so "Yes". The styles can also be
written to the template, but that's next lesson.
What do you mean in this context by "Paragraph Style"?

In ANY context, a "Paragraph Style" is "a style of type Paragraph". It is
an object, that contains Paragraph-level formatting.
What does this do? And why does "list number" now appear in the Preview
as well as the number?

It does what I said: It associates each level of the list style with a
paragraph style. In this case, we have only one level, so we need only one
style.

Remember: the List Style draws the number. It does not know how to format
the other properties of the paragraph. You need a paragraph style as well
to set the spacing and indents and fonts and whatever. And you need to tie
the paragraph style to the list style, because their settings must
compliment each other. This is where you do that.

Back to the bus: The passenger has the "ability" to sit in a seat, on any
bus, but their desire to "get home" will not be met unless they sit in a
seat on the 348 bus. So we need a ticket that enables that passenger to sit
in a seat on that bus, otherwise we do not know where the passenger will end
up.

Without an association between the List Style and the Paragraph style, we
cannot tell where the numbers will show up, or how paragraphs with numbers
will be formatted. We need to join the two. Because the settings (for
example the tab) in the list style must match the tabs in the paragraph
style or you get ragged left margins.

You WILL get ragged left margins: when you do, that's because your tab
settings in the paragraph style do not compliment your tab setting in the
list style :)
But I'm confused if I changed the List or List Number style or "just"
added a new style norm numbering?

1) You created a new style of type "List" named "norm numbering".
2) Then you changed the definitions of "norm numbering" to set the
appearance of the numbering that it produces.
3) Then you linked the built-in style of type Paragraph named "List Number"
into the List style "norm numbering".
4) Then you customised the paragraph style List Numbering to compliment the
settings in "norm numbering".
5) Finally, you applied List Number to some paragraphs,
6) which added those paragraphs as members of the list "norm numbering"
7) and applied the formatting of both the List and Paragraph styles to
them.
That's my norm numbering?
Correct.


Hmmm.... any problems with this when copying?

No. The problems come when you "don't" do this.
Hmmm... again....hmmm. An example please prof?

There are 256 paragraphs in your document. 56 of them are members of the
"List Number" list. You select one of those 56 and make a change to its
numbering. Potentially this will corrupt all 256 paragraphs in the
document.

If instead you change the "norm numbering" list style, all 56 other members
of the same list will all get the change instantly.
Brain fried! Need to go back out in the cold for another walk.

Just how close IS that pub??
BTW, my "Also.... " in the post. Is it possible to reorder in Word 2008
as in 5.1a? Thanks again.

No. Word 2008 has much better sort options than that, but they have nothing
to do with this kind of numbering.

"Sort" is on the Table menu. Start another thread on that: it is very good,
but it's not intuitive and it's not documented in the help so we need to
show you.

Cheers

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]
 
N

Norm

Hi John:

FWIW, I'm enjoying the challenge, the education and the process of
learning Word 2008 (Styles in this case) through John, this newsgroup
and the MVPers....

I appreciate!


John McGhie said:
Hi Norm:

On 7/12/09 7:12 AM, in article
(e-mail address removed), "Norm"


I shall expect a note. Signed by your wife!

Her response..... "no way, you are way over high school age" but she did
say to say hi to John. ;)
Just that: it 'appears": three different dialogs, same old same old
inside...

Hmmm..... off on search..... it "appears" when I select Bullets and
Numbering? or ?


So it will be a member of some "group" to use your analogy that follows.
Correct?

So, what if I created a body text based on Normal but not
associated/dependent on it. And that style is the style of those
paragraphs not with the "LI" tag. Would that be a frequent situation?


Now: the "Heading" collection may be associated with a List Style. Or it
may not. Usually, it is not; but if you want to use Heading Numbering in
the document, we need to add a list style to the Headings collection.

Let's assume we HAVE added a "HeadingsList" style to the document, and
associated paragraph styles Heading 1 through to Heading 9 with that
HeadingList style.

Lost me there. Just not enough mileage on my limited grey matter with
styles. I'll catch up though. I've got a good and patient, so far ;),
prof.

I think I need to take the above and create same. Make sense as a
problem set?

But I'm still not sure if I ever modify a MS style or if I'm always
creating a new one. Need more study time with your last emails and Bend.
We are getting into "Object Oriented" concepts. Here. This is actually the
way the whole world works, but us old farts are not used to a word-processor
working this way.

This is getting interesting but I'm not sure when the lone light bulb
will go on re: Object Oriented. It will take a while I fear.

This is a simplistic example: I've left out several layers of complexity to
make the explanation simple.

I won't even ask for a hint as to the next level complexity. I'll stay
here for more than a bit.
The paragraphs are each members of one of two hidden lists. Each has a
hidden list style (different for both). This was NOT a great piece of user
interface design.

Will design like that ever change with input I assume you and others
have given MS?

Yes it will. Yes, it does. You've got it :)

And that is not good. You've lost control. Correct?

No, I said "for every level in that list". There can be an unlimited number
of lists in a document. But for each level in the list, there must be a
paragraph style that contains the level number.

I need to read and re-read and test and read. Then this will sink in.
Having a block. But onward...

Which is why I recommend that you set up List Styles correctly. It takes
five minutes longer (OK then, 15 minutes longer...) but you have to do it
only once in your lifetime. If you don't do it, you will waste half an hour
fixing the numbering in each document you get, for the rest of your lifetime
:)

Ahhh.... now I understand the rationale for your recommendation in the
prior email (your chapter ;) ). So I will have a Norm List Style for
each level and it is not dependent on normal or bt?

document. Once you "create" a collection, it must always contain at least
one member, or the document is corrupt.

Not sure what you mean by create a collection. If I have a user-defined
style available in that document that doesn't mean I need to use it in
the document.
Yes, you should, but no, you can't. It's a design bug. Use the
Format>Style entry and piss the Formatting Palette off: it's not ready for
prime time yet (and never will be, since the PC side of the fence dropped
it...)

Will do. Looks like a mess even to this novice.
As a rule of thumb "Don't create when you can customise". In this specific
instance, it does not matter whether you create or modify: however, it's
always better to modify. If you want this style to be called "List Number"
you HAVE to modify, because it's a built-in style so Word will not permit
you to delete, rename, or over-write it.

But shouldn't I leave their List Number as is? And create one of my own
as I did in this trial.
This is YOUR document, not a sacred text. Hit it with a meat-axe. Remember
"Bend Word to YOUR will." Don't be timid with it: you have to let it know
who's boss.


Neither of us will live that long: get on with it!!

Agree. I will do but I'm going to wait for your opine on the question
directly above first.

And this gives me a chance to ask a related BTW:
After following your directions on the "original" response, I then had a
Style called Norm's Numbering (NN). I "think" I did everything OK but I
did Create not Modify per our interchange above.

I applied NN to a paragraph.
Created several numbered paragraphs. :)
Then I used by chance 2 returns and I was back to Normal Style. I
finished that paragraph and then created another paragraph while still
in Normal (I know I need to use a bt style :-( ).
I then tried to apply NN to this last paragraph.
It would not accept that. It went to "List Paragraph" and a icon with a
lightening bolt next to it.

Would appreciate your assessment? Thanks.

Look again: I think the title of the dialog changes when you go to the next
step, because after the instant when you "create" it, you are now
"modifying" it. Maybe I typed the wrong thing...

I'll look again next time. Thanks.
What was the question?...

How does one set up hanging indents so that the lines will line up
regardless of the number of digits in the numbering of that paragraph? I
think that is close. I will now go look.....same question but not worded
very well the first time... or maybe this time. ;)

If I wanted you to escape down the road to the Pub I would have distracted
your wife for you!! Since you went for a beverage without a clearance, I'm
now going to tell her...

You're too kind. ;)
But she was on the walk. No refreshments. Left our bottle of Australian
wine for after "class."
I was building points so I could go back to John's Word class without
too many demerits. ;)

"Add tab stop at" then sets a tab on the FIRST line where the text will
begin after the number.

Got it. And I realize the first time when you suggested to look at the
Preview. Then I went through in my mind the process.

BTW, if one wants to drag a numbered paragraph, Word does not let one
select the whole line. Why not?

Ignore that question for now: the answer is "Yes" except when it's "No" :)

Hmmm... I was hoping for an answer. Darn. ;)

I've been using NN style that "we" created in this class but I haven't
figured out the correct way to add a space after each paragraph nor
figured out how to add several non-numbered (maybe that is a non-List
paragraph) paragraphs before the next numbered one. I'll read on and
keep trying.

You would apply a different style, or you would "Skip Numbering". For now,
apply a different style.

OK. :)
The All Style List IS the current doc, so "Yes". The styles can also be
written to the template, but that's next lesson.

So the new Style NN is in All Styles but only in this doc. If I were to
open, and I did, another new doc it isn't there. I had to go to the
Organizer to get it into another doc. OK?

But after I did that it is now appearing in all my new docs so it must
be in my Normal Template. Hmmm.... I need to go back to Bend or Word's
Help to review All Styles, User-defined.... etc.
In ANY context, a "Paragraph Style" is "a style of type Paragraph". It is
an object, that contains Paragraph-level formatting.

And if one did not associate my NN at this point in defining it with
Paragraph Style what would happen?
It does what I said: It associates each level of the list style with a
paragraph style. In this case, we have only one level, so we need only one
style.

Remember: the List Style draws the number. It does not know how to format
the other properties of the paragraph. You need a paragraph style as well
to set the spacing and indents and fonts and whatever. And you need to tie
the paragraph style to the list style, because their settings must
compliment each other. This is where you do that.

OK..... I "think this is getting through the challenged skull". That's
very helpful.

Back to the bus: The passenger has the "ability" to sit in a seat, on any
bus, but their desire to "get home" will not be met unless they sit in a
seat on the 348 bus. So we need a ticket that enables that passenger to sit
in a seat on that bus, otherwise we do not know where the passenger will end
up.

Without an association between the List Style and the Paragraph style, we
cannot tell where the numbers will show up, or how paragraphs with numbers
will be formatted. We need to join the two. Because the settings (for
example the tab) in the list style must match the tabs in the paragraph
style or you get ragged left margins.

OK ..... starting to break through...... Thank you for your patience.
Profs need lots..... and lots... especially with some of us. ;)
You WILL get ragged left margins: when you do, that's because your tab
settings in the paragraph style do not compliment your tab setting in the
list style :)


1) You created a new style of type "List" named "norm numbering".
2) Then you changed the definitions of "norm numbering" to set the
appearance of the numbering that it produces.
3) Then you linked the built-in style of type Paragraph named "List Number"
into the List style "norm numbering".
4) Then you customised the paragraph style List Numbering to compliment the
settings in "norm numbering".
5) Finally, you applied List Number to some paragraphs,
6) which added those paragraphs as members of the list "norm numbering"
7) and applied the formatting of both the List and Paragraph styles to
them.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Bingo. :)


There are 256 paragraphs in your document. 56 of them are members of the
"List Number" list. You select one of those 56 and make a change to its
numbering. Potentially this will corrupt all 256 paragraphs in the
document.

When you say "make a change to its numbering", that means ____________.
If instead you change the "norm numbering" list style, all 56 other members
of the same list will all get the change instantly.

Got that!!!!!!!!!
Just how close IS that pub??

It was mid-day, the walk was better. But the pub is close.
No. Word 2008 has much better sort options than that, but they have nothing
to do with this kind of numbering.

"Sort" is on the Table menu. Start another thread on that: it is very good,
but it's not intuitive and it's not documented in the help so we need to
show you.

Will do.... but after some digesting.

Thanks very, very much. I now need to stay after class for some remedial
work. Set up numbering again following your same instructions.

Really.... really.... appreciate all the help.

Cheers.

Norm
 
N

Norm

Hi John:

I took your "chapter" and did some remedial work.... Thank you very
much. Now Word, styles, hanging indents and lists are finally making
some sense to this old rookie. :)

But not totally out of the woods.

Below are questions that arose after my immediately preceding post that
you may not have seen... lucky you.... and after I went through yours of
12-1 again and followed the example you outlined of creating a List
Style.

If you have time, inline below. Thanks very much either way.


The paragraph styles you use in a list must NOT be used for anything
else in this document. So you CAN NOT use Normal or Body Text in List
Styles: if you do, all hell breaks loose: you get numbers breaking out
like measles all over "everything".

Any Word alert/dialog to prevent this from happening?

Can a paragraph style (in this case a List Number __ ) be used for
different levels in a List Style or in different List Styles in the same
doc? From your point above, I gather No to my second one>


(Note: An ahhhh ha moment.... just got the list number styles. That is
what the List Number 1-9 is for those are 9 types of lists. Norm... Duh
)

Go into Format>Style, and find the List Number style. Remember I said
it will be hidden until it is used? In the Formatting Palette or in
the Format Style dialog, look for the "List:" drop-down and change it
to "All Styles", otherwise you won't be able to see the List Number
series of styles.
Set the font and paragraph spacing properties to your tastes. Don't
bother setting the tabs and left indents, they will be inherited from
the List Style when we create it.


And if I want a return/space after each paragraph in the list is this
where I'd create that?

And I do so by creating a paragraph first and then creating a style from
that? Or from this dialog?

I don't see where I'd set the tabs and indents?

And no need to add this to template because the results will be
incorporated in the new List Style we are creating below. Did I get that
one right? (whoops, no! I just read again your ending and you say most
users use the paragraph style not the List Style).

Choose "Numbering". Remember that I told you that Bullets and Numbering
are
the same thing? This is why I told you that: if you were making a
Bulleted
List, you would still choose Numbering here.
Now you will see a familiar dialog that you may have seen before:
"Outline Numbering".

What happens when I click "Reset" on Outline Numbered on Bullets and
Numbering while creating a List Style? Will it disrupt a previously
defined List Style?


The "Link level to style" box associates each level of the List Style
with its Paragraph Style. Since we have only one level in this List
Style, we need do only one: set that box to "List Number".

Can one use the same paragraph style for each level? (version of
question above)

To APPLY this style, you can EITHER apply the Paragraph Style, or you can
apply the List Style: it doesn't matter. Whichever one you apply will
automatically apply the other. Normally, people would apply the
Paragraph
Style, which will bring the List Style in.

I guess this answers my above question. Each paragraph style must have
only one List Style associated with it. Correct?

But I'd think that one would select the List Style since you have
developed a name for it and thus the name may infer the type of
formatting in that List Style. But this may mean I don't understand one
of the concepts.



Why in the Preview on Customize, does it insert the name of the
paragraph style used. Just to indicate the link? I thought at first it
was to indicate some change in first line formatting.


I don't understand the mechanics of adding the Tab stop that creates the
indent on the first line of the List Style. Is there a different way (or
in my case, a way ;) ) of thinking about that?

The styles I created from following (hopefully correctly) your
instructions results in a Style which under Description on the Style
dialog says "No List + indent....... " What does "No List" mean there?

Thanks very much,

Norm
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Norm:

FWIW, I'm enjoying the challenge, the education and the process of
learning Word 2008 (Styles in this case) through John, this newsgroup
and the MVPers....

Well, from my point of view, I am enjoying the chance to "be" an MVP again.
Trust me, helping customers struggling with broken software is NOT what MVPs
are supposed to be doing. That's Microsoft's job :)

We are supposed to be helping people to USE the software. Which kinda
implies that it is actually working right at the time...

So your questions, which are directly about using the advanced features, are
actually what we came here to do. I trust you are making notes ‹ because
next time a user comes in here asking, everyone will be looking at YOU for
the answer :)
Hmmm..... off on search..... it "appears" when I select Bullets and
Numbering? or ?

It appears if you use Format>Bullets and Numbering: which is the raw view.
As soon as you get into the List Styles neighbourhood, you can see only the
Outline Numbered tab, because a List Style is always multi-level.

The single-level lists "Bullets" and "Numbering" are a legacy construct that
goes back to Word 6 (Word 5.1 on the Mac) which could not do multilevel
lists.
So it will be a member of some "group" to use your analogy that follows.
Correct?

Every object in Word is a member of at least one "Collection". Depending on
the kind of object, it may also be members of several other collections.
Look up "Venn Diagrams" in Google and you will see lots of pretty pictures
illustrating the concept.

A paragraph is always a member of "Paragraphs". It may also be a member of
a "List" and of "Tracked Changes" and of "Footnotes" etc.

A List, by definition, has one or more paragraphs as members. You can have
a "List of 1", which is conceptually silly but logically quite correct. You
can NOT have a "List of 0": as soon as you remove the last item, Word would
corrupt the document, so it won't let you remove the last item. Eventually
they will fix that so if you remove the last item, Word will remove the
list, but so far they haven't bothered. You don't NEED to remove lists from
a document: Word will remove them automatically if they are not used and the
document contains more than 200.

However, you can NOT have a paragraph that is a member of more than one
list.

You would never want to: having a paragraph that is both bulleted and
numbered is a logical and conceptual absurdity. But if you ever tried, Word
would not let you. There is only one space for the list name in a
paragraph, and that space will hold only one name. If you have not made the
paragraph a member of a list, that space contains the placeholder "no list".
So, what if I created a body text based on Normal but not
associated/dependent on it.

If it is "based on" Normal style, then it is very much associated with and
dependent upon Normal style. That's what "Based On" means: all of the
formatting properties of that style (and thus, of the paragraphs to which it
is applied...) are inherited from the Normal style. That would not change
until you change each of the properties: when you change a property of an
object (paragraph, style...) you break its inheritance link to its parent
object.
And that style is the style of those
paragraphs not with the "LI" tag. Would that be a frequent situation?

Yes. In a correctly-formatted document, paragraphs with a Body Text style
will not be members of a list. Paragraphs that are members of a list would
not have body text style.
Lost me there.

You might have numbering on the headings in a document, or you might not.
If you do have numbering, then the Heading style paragraphs are members of a
list. If you don't, they are not.
But I'm still not sure if I ever modify a MS style or if I'm always
creating a new one. Need more study time with your last emails and Bend.

You ALWAYS modify a Microsoft style. That's what they are there for.

The only time you would not modify one is if you can't find one close to
what you want (and that almost never happens).

The Microsoft styles have no value at all, other than as place-holders to
save you effort. At least half of them are completely empty. The style
name itself refers to an empty container. The contents of that container
are entirely inherited from the Normal style, which in turn is empty, in a
modern version of Word.

A style is just "the name of a container to hold formatting". That
container can be (and often is) empty. To USE Body Text, you should first
customise it to have the font, line height, indents and paragraph properties
you want.

Users expect Word to have "Default" or "Standard" or "Baseline" settings for
formatting. It actually doesn't have those, which has caused great
confusion throughout the ages. Users constantly ask "How do I get my
document back to the defaults?"

Prior to Word 2007, the answer has always been "You can't, there aren't
any." You have to delete the Normal template, then the next document you
create will have the hard-coded settings.

In Word 2007 and later, a new item appeared on the File menu: "New Blank
Document". It creates a totally default document with all properties set to
the hard-coded defaults. This is different from previous versions, when
"New Document" would make a copy of the settings in Normal Template.
Will design like that ever change with input I assume you and others
have given MS?

It changes every version of Word. There's none so deaf as those who will
not hear. Since 1997, we have complained pungently and in detail about this
mechanism.

The poor man who used to be in charge of this mechanism even knew how to
spell my name, he heard it so frequently. Each time, he designed something
that would fix it. Each time, Marketing Department screwed it up by
insisting that he make it "easy" and "flexible".

So each time Stuart created constraints to prevent users breaking the
numbering, Marketing Department ripped them out, because that would not have
been "easy" since it meant that users would have to learn to do this
properly. Numbering continued to break as users continued to create code
structures that simply can not work.

Each time Stuart created logic that prevented users doing the wrong thing,
Marketing ripped them out, because they define "flexible" as "Users can do
anything they want to."

Until Vista sat there on shop shelves blowing raspberries at Steve Ballmer,
Microsoft has been unable to learn that "allowing users to stumble around
blindly in a cellar with the lights turned out" is not the same as "doing
what they want". What users WANT is numbering that works, not cracked shins
because they can't see what they're doing.

Each time Stuart came up with a fix that showed users what was happening,
Marketing ripped it out because it was "too complicated". So now, users
cannot learn to use numbering, because they cannot see what they are doing.
Marketing forced Stuart to take all the controls off the dashboard. Flying
is exciting, but crashes are inevitable.

The people who bought you Vista have now gone back to designing government
forms and phone company terms and conditions. Stuart now runs a whole
department that will get this right quite soon :)

Currently, the numbering engine works very well. Marketing couldn't see it,
so they were not able to wreck it. It is still possible to fly it into the
side of a mountain, because many of the navigation instruments are still
missing. But the engine itself will keep going, which was not always the
case in the past.
And that is not good. You've lost control. Correct?
Correct!

Ahhh.... now I understand the rationale for your recommendation in the
prior email (your chapter ;) ). So I will have a Norm List Style for
each level and it is not dependent on normal or bt?

That's right. A List Style is a different kind of thing from a paragraph
style. It cannot inherit anything from a paragraph style. The reverse:
some definitions that you make in a list style will be copied back into the
paragraph style.
Not sure what you mean by create a collection. If I have a user-defined
style available in that document that doesn't mean I need to use it in
the document.

That's correct. If you have created a style in a document, it will be a
member of the Styles collection. That says nothing about whether or not it
has been USED in the document to format any text.

You could (and sometimes we do, when we are programming Word) create a child
collection of the Styles collection called "Used Styles" which would contain
only the names of the styles that are currently applied to text.
But shouldn't I leave their List Number as is? And create one of my own
as I did in this trial.

No. Unless you have customised it, you have no idea "how it is". In any
document, List Number is the way the previous user of that document left it.
It could be (and often is...) "random". The only thing you can be sure of
is that it exists, because it is a required part of the document.

It is a "container". Unless you put something in there, you have no way of
knowing what is in there.
Agree. I will do but I'm going to wait for your opine on the question
directly above first.

My opinion is just that: an opinion. The one that counts is YOUR opinion:
you paid for the software, you know what you want to do. I can never tell
you any more than "This is what I do, and this is why".
And this gives me a chance to ask a related BTW:
After following your directions on the "original" response, I then had a
Style called Norm's Numbering (NN). I "think" I did everything OK but I
did Create not Modify per our interchange above.

I applied NN to a paragraph.
Created several numbered paragraphs. :)
Then I used by chance 2 returns and I was back to Normal Style. I
finished that paragraph and then created another paragraph while still
in Normal (I know I need to use a bt style :-( ).
I then tried to apply NN to this last paragraph.
It would not accept that. It went to "List Paragraph" and a icon with a
lightening bolt next to it.

Would appreciate your assessment? Thanks.

You're supposed to apply the paragraph style that you defined into the list
style. When you do that, Word will apply the list style automatically.

You can apply a list style directly, but if you do, you then need some way
to tell Word what level you want it to apply. If you apply the paragraph
style instead, Word already knows the level.
But she was on the walk. No refreshments. Left our bottle of Australian
wine for after "class."
I was building points so I could go back to John's Word class without
too many demerits. ;)

Did you, or did you not withhold assistance from the World Spelling
Authority from me? So your chances of a clean sheet would be...?
BTW, if one wants to drag a numbered paragraph, Word does not let one
select the whole line. Why not?

Because the number and tab "don't exist" yet. They are generated text that
will not be generated until the document is displayed or printed. So what
you are seeing is actually a visual illusion: there is actually nothing
"there" to select :)
I've been using NN style that "we" created in this class but I haven't
figured out the correct way to add a space after each paragraph

That is a "paragraph" property. It belongs in your Paragraph style. So
modify the paragraph style you have defined into each level of the List
style to add space after.
figured out how to add several non-numbered (maybe that is a non-List
paragraph) paragraphs before the next numbered one. I'll read on and
keep trying.

"Apply a different style". There are two ways, but that is the simplest.
List Number should match the indents of Body Text. When you want "no
numbers" apply Body Text. When you want numbers, apply List Number.
So the new Style NN is in All Styles but only in this doc. If I were to
open, and I did, another new doc it isn't there. I had to go to the
Organizer to get it into another doc. OK?

Organiser is one method (probably the best method...) of doing this.

The other way is to tick on "Add to Template" while you are making changes
to the style, just before you close it.

That is convenient, but it has traps that catch people out:

* The Add to Template does not take place until Word quits. People who
never quit Word will never update the template. You can force it, by
holding down Shift and choosing Save All from the File menu. But unless you
hold down Shift, Save All will not appear.

* When you set Add to Template on, Word does not add only the changed
style, it replaces the entire Style Table: it overwrites ALL of the styles
in the template with the styles from the document. That's not usually what
you want.

* If you modify styles in more than one document, and set "Add to Template"
on in each, then the styles in the template are all replaced by the styles
in BOTH of the documents, one after the other. The writes to the template
happen in the order the documents were opened, I believe. Which means that
the copy of the style you get left in the template with is a bit of a
lottery.

You can devise an experiment to test this and report back. It's not hard, I
just haven't ever done it.
But after I did that it is now appearing in all my new docs so it must
be in my Normal Template. Hmmm.... I need to go back to Bend or Word's
Help to review All Styles, User-defined.... etc.

If you do not change the files that Organiser is pointing at, one side will
point to the active document, the other side will point to the Normal
template. So yes, it's in your Normal template.
And if one did not associate my NN at this point in defining it with
Paragraph Style what would happen?

You get paragraphs that are members of the list but have different paragraph
styles. Not technically a problem, unless one of those paragraph styles HAS
been defined into a List Style.

If one of the paragraph styles has been defined into a list style, you are
likely to get a corrupt list. Which will lead to a corrupt document.
When you say "make a change to its numbering", that means ____________.

You used Format>Bullets and Numbering to change the numbering definition for
one of the paragraphs that are a member of a list.

Means you touched Format>Bullets and Numbering after I told you not to. So
now you get to stay after school until you fix the document you just
broke...
It was mid-day, the walk was better. But the pub is close.

Obviously: You keep disappearing down there whenever I am trying to find
you!

On to YOUR next chapter... :)

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Norm:

Any Word alert/dialog to prevent this from happening?

Yeah. Word trashes the document and crashes :)
Can a paragraph style (in this case a List Number __ ) be used for
different levels in a List Style or in different List Styles in the same
doc? From your point above, I gather No to my second one>

No to both. If you defined the same paragraph style for multiple levels of
a list style (Word won't let you) when you applied the paragraph style Word
would not know which level of the list to apply: you would have a
mutually-exclusive definition: if this is true then that cannot be true, but
if that is true then this cannot be true.

If you used the same paragraph style in more than one List Style, (Word
won't allow that) you would set up a circular reference: this depends on
that which depends on this. Word would crash.
And if I want a return/space after each paragraph in the list is this
where I'd create that?

If you want Space After, define it in the Paragraph Property of the
Paragraph style. A List Style has no slot for "space after" so you cannot
define it there.
And I do so by creating a paragraph first and then creating a style from
that? Or from this dialog?

Quickest and most precise to simply use Format>Style... Select the
paragraph style and choose Modify.
I don't see where I'd set the tabs and indents?

You can set them in either the Paragraph Style or the List Style. If you
set them in both, the List Style overrides the paragraph style. You must
set them in the List Style or it won't work.
And no need to add this to template because the results will be
incorporated in the new List Style we are creating below. Did I get that
one right? (whoops, no! I just read again your ending and you say most
users use the paragraph style not the List Style).

If you use the "Add to template" checkbox, the entire style table is copied
to the template in a single operation, including both the paragraph style
and the list style. If you use Organiser, you must remember to copy the
paragraph style first and then the List style. If you do it the wrong way
round, potentially you will break the links to the paragraph styles and end
up with a List Style that does not have its paragraph styles defined.
What happens when I click "Reset" on Outline Numbered on Bullets and
Numbering while creating a List Style? Will it disrupt a previously
defined List Style?

No. What you are looking at in that dialog is similar to a colour palette.
It shows you seven List Styles. Think of seven cans of paint: each one is
the colour you most recently mixed in that can. Pressing "Reset" reverts
that position to its built-in default settings. What you see in each
position does not yet actually exist, in either the document or the
template. You simply see the settings that would be used to create a List
Style if you were to choose that selection. So resetting that position
has no effect on the Lists or the List Styles in the document: because the
settings in that selection have not yet been used to create a List.
Can one use the same paragraph style for each level? (version of
question above)

No! (Condensed version of the answer above)
I guess this answers my above question. Each paragraph style must have
only one List Style associated with it. Correct?

Well done! This stuff is not easy :)
But I'd think that one would select the List Style since you have
developed a name for it and thus the name may infer the type of
formatting in that List Style. But this may mean I don't understand one
of the concepts.

You can do either: if you get the list style right it will apply the
paragraph style; if you apply the paragraph style, it will apply the list
style. Most users find it easier to apply the paragraph style.
Why in the Preview on Customize, does it insert the name of the
paragraph style used. Just to indicate the link? I thought at first it
was to indicate some change in first line formatting.

No: It's a nice-to-have Stuart inserted that Marketing didn't see in time
to break it. It tells shows you the names of the styles associated with the
top three levels of the list.

Stuart wanted to change it to show all nine styles, but by then Marketing
had seen it and the only way he was able to keep it in the product was to
tell them that it would be impossibly expensive to change it back again :)
I don't understand the mechanics of adding the Tab stop that creates the
indent on the first line of the List Style. Is there a different way (or
in my case, a way ;) ) of thinking about that?

There "is no indent on the first line". The indent applies only to the
subsequent lines. The first line begins at the position of the number (on
the left margin). The tab stop tabs the text across to line up with the
indent applied to subsequent lines.

The tab stop does not have to be there: remove it and test to see what
happens.
The styles I created from following (hopefully correctly) your
instructions results in a Style which under Description on the Style
dialog says "No List + indent....... " What does "No List" mean there?

Means you forgot to define your paragraph style into your List style. Which
means you have a stand-alone list that will produce some peculiar effects.

Hope this helps

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]
 
N

Norm

Hi John:


John McGhie said:
So your questions, which are directly about using the advanced features, are
actually what we came here to do. I trust you are making notes ‹ because
next time a user comes in here asking, everyone will be looking at YOU for
the answer :)

But I'll need my notes and a good memory I fear. But I will try to "pay
it forward."

If it is "based on" Normal style, then it is very much associated with and
dependent upon Normal style. That's what "Based On" means: all of the
formatting properties of that style (and thus, of the paragraphs to which it
is applied...) are inherited from the Normal style. That would not change
until you change each of the properties: when you change a property of an
object (paragraph, style...) you break its inheritance link to its parent
object.

Given you and Clive have pointed out it is important/helpful to have
styles that are not dependent on Normal....

Then the correct way to create a style not dependent on another but
where you want to use the other as the basis of it, is to do what?
Yes. In a correctly-formatted document, paragraphs with a Body Text style
will not be members of a list. Paragraphs that are members of a list would
not have body text style.

And if there are paragraphs "in" the list but not list paragraphs but
body text paragraphs that is OK is often the case?

The only time you would not modify one is if you can't find one close to
what you want (and that almost never happens).

But if you Modify it then you don't have it in its original state to
Modify again for the next time you need a similar one. Is that a problem?
The Microsoft styles have no value at all, other than as place-holders to
save you effort. At least half of them are completely empty. The style
name itself refers to an empty container. The contents of that container
are entirely inherited from the Normal style, which in turn is empty, in a
modern version of Word.

Hmmmm...... not making sense yet... I'll read on.... but are you saying
there are styles that are blank but when I create a Normal Style they
will be defined?
A style is just "the name of a container to hold formatting". That
container can be (and often is) empty. To USE Body Text, you should first
customise it to have the font, line height, indents and paragraph properties
you want.

I guess I thought I was going to use Normal to develop a bt. I guessed
wrong!
I created a Norm's Normal for a body text. Not correct approach I gather?

Users expect Word to have "Default" or "Standard" or "Baseline" settings for
formatting. It actually doesn't have those, which has caused great
confusion throughout the ages. Users constantly ask "How do I get my
document back to the defaults?"

Prior to Word 2007, the answer has always been "You can't, there aren't
any." You have to delete the Normal template, then the next document you
create will have the hard-coded settings.

In Word 2007 and later, a new item appeared on the File menu: "New Blank
Document". It creates a totally default document with all properties set to
the hard-coded defaults. This is different from previous versions, when
"New Document" would make a copy of the settings in Normal Template.

It does? Then why does my New Document create a doc with "my" font?

The people who bought you Vista have now gone back to designing government
forms and phone company terms and conditions. Stuart now runs a whole
department that will get this right quite soon :)

Sounds like a marked improvement. Does that mean that Word 2010 (or
whenever) will be more logically designed and marketed?

No. Unless you have customised it, you have no idea "how it is". In any
document, List Number is the way the previous user of that document left it.
It could be (and often is...) "random". The only thing you can be sure of
is that it exists, because it is a required part of the document.

It is a "container". Unless you put something in there, you have no way of
knowing what is in there.

I got left in the dust.... what does a "previous user" have to do with
whether I Modify List Number or create something called Norm's or John's
List Number?
Did you, or did you not withhold assistance from the World Spelling
Authority from me? So your chances of a clean sheet would be...?

Yes. And none. ;)
That is a "paragraph" property. It belongs in your Paragraph style. So
modify the paragraph style you have defined into each level of the List
style to add space after.

Got it. Thanks. I'm getting this paragraph style to list style
relationship but slowly.
"Apply a different style". There are two ways, but that is the simplest.
List Number should match the indents of Body Text. When you want "no
numbers" apply Body Text. When you want numbers, apply List Number.

Duh Norm..... get on the train. The class is leaving the station. ;)

* When you set Add to Template on, Word does not add only the changed
style, it replaces the entire Style Table: it overwrites ALL of the styles
in the template with the styles from the document. That's not usually what
you want.

Lost me. Haven't you just modified List Number and Created a new List
Style? And if so, don't you want both of those reflected?


<snip>

Thanks very, very much,

Norm
 
N

Norm

Hi John:

Thanks for both posts today re: styles. Really appreciate. Given the
short term memory, that helps lots. ;)


John McGhie said:
Hi Norm:



No to both.

And so if one has two lists in a document (wants to start over at #1)
and you want to use the same 'style' then you'd have to define another
paragraph style (another List Number) and another List Style. Or
duplicate and rename that List Style. Correct?

You can set them in either the Paragraph Style or the List Style. If you
set them in both, the List Style overrides the paragraph style. You must
set them in the List Style or it won't work.

OK.... now I think I'm running not walking....
If you use the "Add to template" checkbox, the entire style table is copied
to the template in a single operation, including both the paragraph style
and the list style. If you use Organiser, you must remember to copy the
paragraph style first and then the List style. If you do it the wrong way
round, potentially you will break the links to the paragraph styles and end
up with a List Style that does not have its paragraph styles defined.

Is this one of the reasons you recommend using the paragraph style (the
ListNumber) rather than the List style?

You can do either: if you get the list style right it will apply the
paragraph style; if you apply the paragraph style, it will apply the list
style. Most users find it easier to apply the paragraph style.

Curious.... why easier to apply the paragraph style?
There "is no indent on the first line". The indent applies only to the
subsequent lines. The first line begins at the position of the number (on
the left margin). The tab stop tabs the text across to line up with the
indent applied to subsequent lines.

The tab stop does not have to be there: remove it and test to see what
happens.

I haven't tested but I thought (I need to go back and re-read perhaps)
you said that by changing the Tab stop to the same amount as the indent
it lined up the first line with the following ones. Yes/no?

And if so, then the Tab stop I gather must be moving the text to that
starting point.
Means you forgot to define your paragraph style into your List style. Which
means you have a stand-alone list that will produce some peculiar effects.

Critical error. And I thought I was almost there.....
Hope this helps

Thanks very much for class #1. A big, big help.

Norm
 
N

Norm

Hi John:

Means you forgot to define your paragraph style into your List style. Which
means you have a stand-alone list that will produce some peculiar effects.

Critical error. And I thought I was almost there.....[/QUOTE]

I went back and both of my numbering styles (list styles) refer to a
paragraph style and both have the same No List in the Description as
indicated above.

Whoops, they are both linked to the same paragraph style which I'm not
suppose to do.... even in this test environment. But I don't think that
is the problem because it said No List when there was but one.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

BTW, can one see the complete description anywhere? It gets cutoff in
the Style dialog window.
 
N

Norm

Hi John:

I'm practicing creating List Styles and List Paragraph Styles so I'm
back on a post of yours from the end of November.

You said this would take some time. It did. But now it is making much
more sense. :)

Thanks.

Please see in-line below....


The paragraph styles you use in a list must NOT be used for anything else in
this document. So you CAN NOT use Normal or Body Text in List Styles: if
you do, all hell breaks loose: you get numbers breaking out like measles all
over "everything".

But they can be used for more than one list?

Go into Format>Style, and find the List Number style. Remember I said it
will be hidden until it is used? In the Formatting Palette or in the Format
Style dialog, look for the "List:" drop-down and change it to "All Styles",
otherwise you won't be able to see the List Number series of styles.

So in this practice session we changed the List Paragraph named List
Number. Correct?

To answer your question, you need only one style: List Number. But while
you are in there, I would set up List Number 2, List Number 3, and List
Number 4, because you may use them later.

How would these LIst Paragraph styles differ from each other? And when
do "we" use each?

Set "Apply formatting to:" to "1st Level".

If we were making a multi-level list, for example for Headings or for Legal
Numbering, we would do all of the following for each level that we want to
use: up to 9 which is the maximum permitted.

So in one list style, one defines the number of levels for that List
Style. Correct?

And one can define an "infinite" number of List Styles?

Does each level of each List Style need a different List Paragraph
Style? Still confused on that concept.

In your case, set it to "Left". The only time you change this is if you are
creating lists that will always appear on a single page and you want to have
the numbers aligned in order of magnitude. For this list, you won't get 100
paragraphs on a page, so it's better to align left so you do not produce a
ragged left margin.

This would have lists with no more than single digit use "right" and
lists with 3 digits use "left"?
Let's assume that you have your Body Text paragraph set to 2.5 cm indent,
and your list number style is based on that. Your List Number style will
also be set to 2.5 cm left indent.

Mine is zero (0). Sounds like that is unusual but I have always just
left the margins set at 1" or 1.25" default.

it hard to read. So your spacing should be set to 56 points minimum. 56
points is close enough to 0.8 of an inch (72 points to an inch). The
default is 0.63 cm (half an inch). You need to set "Indent at" to about 0.8
inches (2 cm) greater than your "Aligned at" value.

I don't question your math but that looks like way too much. I ended up
using .5" and that still looks excessive. Maybe my bifocals.

Thanks very much,

Norm
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Norm:

But they can be used for more than one list?

It's time I started making you do some of the work here: the answer is
"Maybe". What would that depend upon?

Give up?

A Paragraph Style may be used for more than one List, provided that it is
not a member of an Outline List (a multi-level list).

Now: For extra credit: explain why... :)

OK, it's pretty obscure...

There can only be ONE instance of each Outline List in a document. An
outline list encompasses the whole document.

There may be more than one outline list in a document: but there can only be
one instance of each one. This gets really obscure...

Consider "Headings". The nine Heading levels can be numbered, and if they
are, they form an Outline List. There can be only one set of Headings in
the document. So there can be only one Heading List Style.

There can also be nine levels of paragraph list numbering in a document. If
there are, they are also an outline list. That list can re-start at "1"
multiple times, but there can be only one list in the document. So one
list, from top to bottom of the document, but it restarts lots of times.

For example: the Step Numbers in the procedures of a technical document.
Each procedure starts at Step 1; but the formatting of all of the paragraphs
in all of the procedures in the document is controlled by a single List
Style. It's a single list.

So we now have single-level lists and multi-level lists. A paragraph style
can be used in either.

There can be an unlimited number of "Single-Level" lists in the document.
So the paragraph style can in that case be used in multiple lists.

However, there can be only one instance of each multi-level list in a
document. Any paragraph style that is defined into a multi-level list can
be defined into only ONE multi-level list. The act of defining it into one
multi-level list removes it from any other multi-level list.

So: A paragraph style may be used in more than one list provided that list
is NOT a multi-level list. If it is, the paragraph style can be used only
in that list, which means it can be used in only one list.

Until they put in some safety-mechanisms, this used to be the most common
source of corruption in Word documents. It probably still is, because the
safety mechanisms don't work perfectly, but it's a lot less common.

I've changed my mind: it's TOTALLY obscure...
So in this practice session we changed the List Paragraph named List
Number. Correct?

No: You changed the Paragraph Style named List Number. "List Paragraph" is
also a Paragraph Style, and we did not change that.

The difference is that by default, List Number is associated with a List
Style, List Paragraph is not.

If you apply List Number paragraph style, you get numbers, because it is
defined into a List Template that contains them. So you could think of List
Number style as "containing" numbers.

If you apply numbering, using the "Numbering" button, Word automatically
creates the list template, but then it formats the paragraph properties with
the List Paragraph style. List Paragraph does not contain any numbering:
just the spacing and indents. The numbering or bullets come from outside
it.
How would these LIst Paragraph styles differ from each other? And when
do "we" use each?

In any way you see fit: we're bending Word to YOUR will, remember. They
need not differ from each other in any way at all. But usually, you would
use a different left margin and tab setting for each level of a multi-level
list. If you have a paragraph numbering outline list that has five levels
(which you might use for legal clause numbering) you would use List Number,
List Number 2, List Number 3, List Number 4 and List Number 5 as the
paragraph styles that would format the indents and spacing for each of the
five levels.
So in one list style, one defines the number of levels for that List
Style. Correct?

A List Style always has nine levels: but you would add property definitions
into the levels you intend to use. For example you might (probably would)
define a different left margin for each of the levels you want to use.
And one can define an "infinite" number of List Styles?

It's not "infinite" but you are unlikely to run out. I think the limit used
to be 255. That is likely to increase into the millions in the 64-bit
versions of Word. Bits of Word are already coded in 64-bit code. This
change will gradually flow through the application as they revise each part
of it. Whether they have gotten around to this area of the application yet,
I don't know. Probably not: there would be no real benefit in raising the
number yet.
Does each level of each List Style need a different List Paragraph
Style? Still confused on that concept.

Yes it does, and the fact that you asked the question means you are no
longer confused by that.
This would have lists with no more than single digit use "right" and
lists with 3 digits use "left"?

It's a visual thing: if the whole list will always fit on one page, use
Right, otherwise, use Left.
Mine is zero (0). Sounds like that is unusual but I have always just
left the margins set at 1" or 1.25" default.

No, it's not unusual. I habitually use "Out-dented" headings (Hanging
indents, to use the technical term). In which case, I indent body text.
This method has been shown to greatly improve the reader's ability to
navigate long, technical documents.

It gets the heading number into clear space so the reader's eye can pick out
the heading number easily without visual clutter.

For shorter documents, or documents that will not have heading numbering, or
documents that do not have a nested level structure, it's quite common to
see the body text set flush left.

Personally, I think hanging indents looks nicer, but it's as much a personal
preference as anything else in short documents.
I don't question your math but that looks like way too much. I ended up
using .5" and that still looks excessive. Maybe my bifocals.

If you are using flush left, then yes, it would be too much. If you're
using hanging indents, half an inch (0.63) will be fine until you hit the
third digit of your numbering. If your numbering never will hit three
digits, or your font is smaller than 12 points, 0.63 cm will be fine.

It's part of your graphics design. You need to allow for your worst case.

Cheers

--

The email below is my business email -- Please do not email me about forum
matters unless I ask you to; or unless you intend to pay!

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP (Word, Mac Word), Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia. | Ph: +61 (0)4 1209 1410
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:[email protected]
 

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