Table layout displayed differently in Netscape & IE

J

just me

Greetings,
I have a "mock" website which is meant to be a similar style to the BBC
website layout (tables within tables to give the appearance of a set of
boxes).
Trying to create something simply and quickly I used just a single table
with cell spacing set to "5". This achieves the desired effect within FP and
when viewing the site using IE6, however Netscape and Opera don't seem to
see the cell spacing - all the cells butt up to one another.
Can anyone offer any suggestions? I know I can redo the design with a column
5 pixels wide, just wondering if there was a way of avoiding that.
Cheers.
 
J

just me

just me said:
Greetings,
I have a "mock" website which is meant to be a similar style to the BBC
website layout (tables within tables to give the appearance of a set of
boxes).
Trying to create something simply and quickly I used just a single table
with cell spacing set to "5". This achieves the desired effect within FP and
when viewing the site using IE6, however Netscape and Opera don't seem to
see the cell spacing - all the cells butt up to one another.
Can anyone offer any suggestions? I know I can redo the design with a column
5 pixels wide, just wondering if there was a way of avoiding that.
Cheers.

I have published the page at http://www.thelandofpoint.co.uk/prog.htm as a
demonstration.
Can anyone help?
 
T

Thomas A. Rowe

The spacing between the cells looks the same in NS6.21, NS4.08* as in IE6
under Windows XP Home.

*However you need to set your page background color to white, otherwise NS4
users will see the default grey background color.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
S

Stefan B Rusynko

NN & IE treat table sizes differently (inner vs outer dimensions)
If you define a table width="767" make sure your cells add up to 767 (not 740 or 747) as you now have



| Odd. I'm using NS7.1 under Win2K and it looks like
| http://www.thelandofpoint.co.uk/netscape.gif - no spacing of any colour
| between the cells.
| Set the default background background colour as advised though. Any other
| advice?
|
| | > The spacing between the cells looks the same in NS6.21, NS4.08* as in IE6
| > under Windows XP Home.
| >
| > *However you need to set your page background color to white, otherwise
| NS4
| > users will see the default grey background color.
| >
| > --
| >
| > ==============================================
| > Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
| > WEBMASTER Resources(tm)
| >
| > FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
| > MS KB Quick Links, etc.
| > ==============================================
| > To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| >
| > | > > | > > > Greetings,
| > > > I have a "mock" website which is meant to be a similar style to the
| BBC
| > > > website layout (tables within tables to give the appearance of a set
| of
| > > > boxes).
| > > > Trying to create something simply and quickly I used just a single
| table
| > > > with cell spacing set to "5". This achieves the desired effect within
| FP
| > > and
| > > > when viewing the site using IE6, however Netscape and Opera don't seem
| > to
| > > > see the cell spacing - all the cells butt up to one another.
| > > > Can anyone offer any suggestions? I know I can redo the design with a
| > > column
| > > > 5 pixels wide, just wondering if there was a way of avoiding that.
| > > > Cheers.
| > >
| > > I have published the page at http://www.thelandofpoint.co.uk/prog.htm as
| a
| > > demonstration.
| > > Can anyone help?
| > >
| > >
| >
| >
|
|
 
J

just me

Yup, I fixed that. But still the same problem with the way the page is
displayed.
If you look now at http://www.bbcommercial.co.uk/ (this page is an exercise
and the content is irrelevant).
It still looks lousy in NS.

Column 1=300px, column 2=300px, column 3=140px TOTAL = 740px

Where else am I going wrong?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Please include this message in your reply.
Stefan B Rusynko said:
NN & IE treat table sizes differently (inner vs outer dimensions)
If you define a table width="767" make sure your cells add up to 767 (not 740 or 747) as you now have



| Odd. I'm using NS7.1 under Win2K and it looks like
| http://www.thelandofpoint.co.uk/netscape.gif - no spacing of any colour
| between the cells.
| Set the default background background colour as advised though. Any other
| advice?
|
| | > The spacing between the cells looks the same in NS6.21, NS4.08* as in IE6
| > under Windows XP Home.
| >
| > *However you need to set your page background color to white, otherwise
| NS4
| > users will see the default grey background color.
| >
| > --
| >
| > ==============================================
| > Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
| > WEBMASTER Resources(tm)
| >
| > FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
| > MS KB Quick Links, etc.
| > ==============================================
| > To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| >
| > | > > | > > > Greetings,
| > > > I have a "mock" website which is meant to be a similar style to the
| BBC
| > > > website layout (tables within tables to give the appearance of a set
| of
| > > > boxes).
| > > > Trying to create something simply and quickly I used just a single
| table
| > > > with cell spacing set to "5". This achieves the desired effect within
| FP
| > > and
| > > > when viewing the site using IE6, however Netscape and Opera don't seem
| > to
| > > > see the cell spacing - all the cells butt up to one another.
| > > > Can anyone offer any suggestions? I know I can redo the design with a
| > > column
| > > > 5 pixels wide, just wondering if there was a way of avoiding that.
| > > > Cheers.
| > >
| > > I have published the page at
http://www.thelandofpoint.co.uk/prog.htm as
 
S

Stefan B Rusynko

In IE6, NN 4.79, NN 6.2 they all look the same 7 I see the white borders




| Yup, I fixed that. But still the same problem with the way the page is
| displayed.
| If you look now at http://www.bbcommercial.co.uk/ (this page is an exercise
| and the content is irrelevant).
| It still looks lousy in NS.
|
| Column 1=300px, column 2=300px, column 3=140px TOTAL = 740px
|
| Where else am I going wrong?
|
| --
| -----------------------------------------------------------------
| Please include this message in your reply.
| | > NN & IE treat table sizes differently (inner vs outer dimensions)
| > If you define a table width="767" make sure your cells add up to 767 (not
| 740 or 747) as you now have
| > --
| >
| > _____________________________________________
| > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > _____________________________________________
| >
| >
| | > | Odd. I'm using NS7.1 under Win2K and it looks like
| > | http://www.thelandofpoint.co.uk/netscape.gif - no spacing of any colour
| > | between the cells.
| > | Set the default background background colour as advised though. Any
| other
| > | advice?
| > |
| > | | > | > The spacing between the cells looks the same in NS6.21, NS4.08* as in
| IE6
| > | > under Windows XP Home.
| > | >
| > | > *However you need to set your page background color to white,
| otherwise
| > | NS4
| > | > users will see the default grey background color.
| > | >
| > | > --
| > | >
| > | > ==============================================
| > | > Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
| > | > WEBMASTER Resources(tm)
| > | >
| > | > FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
| > | > MS KB Quick Links, etc.
| > | > ==============================================
| > | > To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
| > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | >
| > | > | > | > > | > | > > > Greetings,
| > | > > > I have a "mock" website which is meant to be a similar style to
| the
| > | BBC
| > | > > > website layout (tables within tables to give the appearance of a
| set
| > | of
| > | > > > boxes).
| > | > > > Trying to create something simply and quickly I used just a single
| > | table
| > | > > > with cell spacing set to "5". This achieves the desired effect
| within
| > | FP
| > | > > and
| > | > > > when viewing the site using IE6, however Netscape and Opera don't
| seem
| > | > to
| > | > > > see the cell spacing - all the cells butt up to one another.
| > | > > > Can anyone offer any suggestions? I know I can redo the design
| with a
| > | > > column
| > | > > > 5 pixels wide, just wondering if there was a way of avoiding that.
| > | > > > Cheers.
| > | > >
| > | > > I have published the page at
| http://www.thelandofpoint.co.uk/prog.htm as
| > | a
| > | > > demonstration.
| > | > > Can anyone help?
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|
 
R

Ronx

In _my_ experience, the later versions of Netscape do not render tables
according to the usually accepted rules - i.e. if the content is too big for
the cell, the cell should stretch - in Netscape 6 and later the cells only
stretch if the first row requires it, subsequent rows will overflow into the
adjoining cell. This may be where the cell colours are overflowing into the
white "borders".
I reworked your page inFP2003, and found that using a full doctype,:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd">

and changing the pixel sized cells to %s ( 300 becomes 40%, 140 becomes 20%)
produced near identical displays in IE6, Netscape 7 and Mozilla Thunderbird,
with white borders between cells.

--
Ron

Reply only to group - all emails will be deleted unread.
 
J

just me

Hi,
Thanks for your advice. I tried as you advised and resized all cells as
percentages.
But when I look at the page in Netscape, I still have the same problem.
Are you able to see if I've still left something out?
Many thanks for your help.
 
R

Ronx

One thing I did not see as important:
I also removed the

style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" bordercolor="#111111"

from every table. This does make the difference. It looks as though
style="border-collapse: collapse" over-rules the cellspacing/cellpadding
attributes.

--
Ron

Reply only to group - all emails will be deleted unread.
 
J

just me

You're a genius Ron! Thanks for your time and patience.

<REACTIONARY>Now all that remains is to ask why in the hell FP inserts
unnessaccary code.</REACTIONARY>
<CONSPIRACY>I never find problems when viewing FP generated code in IE, just
in NS.</CONSPIRACY>

Thanks y'all :eek:)
 
R

Ronx

It is possible to stop this code being inserted by following these steps
from a post by Jim Buyens:

1. Open a new, blank page.
2. Choose Insert from the Table menu, and then Table.
3. Set Border Size to zero.
4. Click the Style button, the Format button, and then
the Border option.
5. In the Borders tab of the Style tab, set the
Style dropdown box to None.
6. Click OK twice to return to the Insert Table Dialog
box.
7. Select the Set As Default For New Tables check box,
then click OK.
8. Right-click the new table, then choose
Table Properties from the shortcut menu.
9. Select the Show Both Cells And Table Borders
check box, and then click OK.

These settings should now apply to any new tables you
create.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com


--
Ron

Reply only to group - all emails will be deleted unread.
 
J

just me

Many thanks. I tried this and found that "None" was already selected - odd!
Do you have a direct support telephone number?!
Cheers.
 
R

Ronx

Sorry, I quit telephone support 4 years ago, and I trashed FP2002 10 minutes
after installing the FP2003 Beta last March. FP2003 is much more civilised
about the (very, very little) code it inserts.

--
Ron

Reply only to group - all emails will be deleted unread.
 
J

just me

Ronx said:
Sorry, I quit telephone support 4 years ago, and I trashed FP2002 10 minutes
after installing the FP2003 Beta last March. FP2003 is much more civilised
about the (very, very little) code it inserts.

Oh really? So, were I to upgrade to FP2K3, I would see less bloated code,
less repeated unneccessary tags, improved cross-browser support from
auto-generated code?

What else, in your opinion, are the key benefits (not the advertised tweaks,
but the differences you'd report as worthwhile)?
 
J

Jim Buyens

just me said:
Oh really? So, were I to upgrade to FP2K3, I would see less bloated code,
less repeated unneccessary tags, improved cross-browser support from
auto-generated code?

Yes, you would. In addition, there's an "Optimize HTML" feature that
can remove various unnecessary stuff from old code.

Are the results perfect? I have a feeling that's a judgment you would
never make. But they're better.
What else, in your opinion, are the key benefits (not the advertised tweaks,
but the differences you'd report as worthwhile)?

If you're a person who cares about code, some of my favorites are:

o Open any file in text-only mode (css, js, vb, inc, text, asa, ...)
o IntelliSense for JavaScript, HTML, and ASP.
o Line numbers in Code view.
o Line wrapping in Code view.
o Code snippets in Code view.
o Split view (Design view and Code view running in split panes).
o A "Quick Tag Selector" in Design view that displays the selected
element's hierarchy of parent tags, up to <body>. Each parent tag
has option to select or edit that tag. This makes working with
nested tables a breeze.

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------
 
R

Ronx

In addition to Jim Buyen's remarks, I would add the improved FTP and HTTP
publishing interface, and the advertised tweaks like layers, behaviours and
Dynamic Web Templates.
 
J

just me

Thanks guys - I'm thinking hard now!

Previously Microsoft have published a comparison page for newer Office
releases, but despite extensive searches on the Office website, I cannot
find this for 2003. It would be nice to see a full table of changes to
inform my choice.
 

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