The References Group: please help me with some problems

[angry lucie3]

I bought this computer to help me with my school work it is a horror to know
this citation part is a joke.You spend all this time putting in citation and
referencing only to find you are finish and no citation or referencing in
your work.Now i supose you have to buy some other parts which will cost you
to buy another computer and the money list goes on and on with no
productivity. Point bland this is deceiving at best.
Thanks for nothing.I am stuck ,have to be hand writing my citations and
referencing I should sue microsoft if I fail my paper.

Thank you.

Hi Aliera,

I've crossposted this into the Word:mac discussion group as well as its present location in the Winword document management
discussion group.

It is my understanding that the Word:mac 2008 Citation & Bibliography (C&B) feature, while in a somewhat different User Interface,
is for the most part common to Word 2007 and Word 2008. Daiya Mitchell, Word/mac MVP, among others there has experience from both
the Word user point of view and from the academia view point on this topic (as can folks here in the WinWord group) and we can, I
hope, benefit from understanding, expanding and taming this feature through discussion of it and the clarity others can add to to
this that I may overlook (or mistake) <g>. There have been discussions in that group (as well as in the Word 'en Espanol'
discussion group on this feature

You bring up an interesting point about how Word formats the 'Works Cited' and 'Bibliography' items inserted in Word documents when
you mentioned that

<<Word formats the bibliography/works cited entries incorrectly
for Chicago/Turabian style. The first line of an entry should be flush left, but any additional lines must be indented 5 spaces.
It should be simple a simple matter of just indenting the text, but the program won't let me do it.>>

You also mentioned that you expected Word's bibilography feature to pickup footnotes to include as well, but the way the feature is
structured that isn't quite, as I understand, an intent.

As I see it, how Word 2007 does the bibliography creation is mainly 'behind the scenes' but you can do a bit of tweaking without
knowing how to XML or needing to work with the underlying XML. (One of the folks who frequents the Word:mac discussion group is
Joonhwan Lee - who has already done a bit of customizing of the underlying XML and is, to my understanding, working on additional
tools that will make that a bit easier to do for the average user.

To my understanding, the Word 2007
Reference Tab=>Citation & Bibliography (C&B) Group
use of C&B-styles relates primarily to how the content that is presented for each of the 10, Microsoft provided C&B-styles is
applied in three locations in Word:

1. The default fields shown for a specific Source reference type when you're in
Manage Sources=>Source Manager=>Edit Source dialog

2. The content selected to be inserted in a document when you use
Insert Citation (where Word is inserting a 'Citation' field)
when you select 'Insert Citation'

3. The content and basic text formatting when you insert a {Bibliography} field into a Word document by clicking on the
'Bibliography' dropdown choie. This is usually done from the out-of-the-box pair of Word Document Building block entries in the
Bibliography gallery, which are:

- Bibliography
- Works Cited

Side note: Document Building blocks are Autotext engine driven reusable content blocks of information accessible in several ways.
One of those ways includes the 'Bibliography gallery'. (There are 36 separately accessible Building Block Galleries in Word 2007).
All Building Block entries are managed and viewable from the Building Blocks organizer in
Insert=>Quick Parts=>Building Block Organizer.
If you visit that dialog you'll see the listing for the two basic entries mentioned above.

When you create a 'Works Cited' or 'Bibliography' in a Word document you are inserting a content control that in the out-of-the-box
gallery entries consist of two parts

a. The first part of the entry is a title, formatted with the 'Heading 1' Word paragraph style. It is not necessarily a 'silly
blue' <g> color that you mentioned, but rather it reflects the currently applied theme, Quick Style set and Font Major/Minor pair
applied to the document. You can also add your own entries to the Bibliography gallery, so that you can insert an entry with a
different heading, or no heading when you wish.

b. The second part of the bibliography field that takes on the formatting of Word's Bibliography style is a listing Word builds
by reading the 'cited' (used in document) checkmark in the Manage Source list and then each of the tagged entries there to create
individual elements of the Bibliography/WorksCited list. While you can apply a different Word paragraph style to the bibliography
field, when you update the field/bibliogray Word throws off that change and reapplies the currently active bibliography paragraph
style.

The 'Bibliography' paragraph style does not, out-of-the-box, appear to contain any paragraph indenting. You can redefine that
paragraph style in Word for all documents created from a single template or for just one document. If you believe that a 2nd line
indent is needed that could be part of a redefined Bibliography paragraph style.

The Bibliography paragraph style is based on Word's 'normal' paragraph style, and as it comes out-of-the-box it appears to be pretty
much the same as the 'normal' style.

When you insert either a Citation or a Bibliography/WorksCited entry into your document Word queries the underlying XML/XSL files
for that style and enters what it's told by those files to select for content for the currently chosen C&B-Style and the order it is
to arrange these in. For the bibliography it also applies on top of the Bibliography paragraph style any direct formatting needed
for
italics, bold, underline and note reference/numbering.

[Word does not appear to include a 'Citation' style out of the box for inserting individual Citations.]

Ideally, it would seem, prior to submitting a final paper, using the ability of the Works Cited and Bibliography content control
entries, to convert to static text (so it doesn't get changed by reviewers). Once it's static text you can certainly reapply a
different paragraph style, but would have to be careful to not undo the direct formatting applied as described above.

Joonhwan Lee has a tool that works, so far, only on the mac last time I looked, that allows you to drag and drop source entries
from BibTex onto the widget and it converts them to Word:mac 2008 sources. It is available at
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~joonhwan/personal.html
Word 2007 is supposed to have a similar ability that allows sources to be copied over using the reference pane, but that has to be
implemented by the provider of the content, as I understand it, and so far I haven't run across a research pane source that does
this. There are other 3rd party tools becoming available to convert from/to Word 2007 sources.

For issues where the underlying content fields or layout are considered to be wrong/missing etc (including 'where is Harvard
Referencing Style' <g>) that would probably best be discussed separately from the visual formatting. From what I gather, in
addition to two Microsoft articles on modifying the underlying XML/XSL files, Joonhwan may be working on tools to do that as well.

================
THank you so much for your quick reply.

I had tried to move the arrows, but was moving the wrong one, so your advice was helpful, thank you. I know other documentation
styles have similar formats, but I only have to worry about the Chicago/Turabian for now.

Is there any way to totally customize the Reference Groups default settings?

I still don't understand why footnote reference entries aren't added to the bibliography. There's no way to customize the Reference
group settings? Microsoft's formatting of the bibliography/works cited pages is erroneous in silly ways. For example, I can only
imagine submitting a paper to my professor for review that had a bold, blue "Works Cited" title. Luckily, that actually was easy to
fix.

The references group still has so many limitations, I just really wish
Microsoft had included in their 2007 version all the features offered by the StyleEase or Endnote programs. It's well within their
capabilities to have done so. If the Office Suite had only cost me around $40 I wouldn't be so demanding, but since I had to spend
$150 on it, I have higher expectations. >>
--

Bob Buckland ?
MS Office System Products MVP

*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*

 

[p0]

I bought this computer to help me with my school work it is a horror to know
this citation part is a joke.You spend all this time putting in citation and
referencing only to find you are finish and no citation or referencing in
your work.Now i supose you have to buy some other parts which will cost you
to buy another computer and the money list goes on and on with no
productivity. Point bland this is deceiving at best.
 Thanks for nothing.I am stuck ,have to  be hand writing my citationsand
referencing I should sue microsoft if I fail my paper.

What do you mean by "no citation or referencing"? If you click on
"Insert Citation", in the dropdown list, are there any citations
listed? If not, and if you click on "Manage Sources", do you see
anything in the left or right listbox? If there is only something in
the left listbox, you can use the "Copy ->" button to copy sources to
your current document.

Do you have a sources.xml file on your computer? That file would
contain all the citations you entered so far under one user account on
one computer. The file can be found in "%appdata%\microsoft
\Bibliography". To check if it is there, in Windows XP try typing that
in Start -> Run. In Vista you can find it by typing that in the "Start
search" box on your start menu. The directory should contain a file
named "sources.xml".

If you want to look at other tools because you don't like the built-in
functions, you might be interested in Zotero (free) and EndNote
(commercial).

Yves

 

[CyberTaz]

Rephrasing what Yves has already offered:

Assuming you've used the Citations Palette [View> Citations], the citations
you've typed are stored in a Master File. They automatically appear in the
Citations Palette, but the palette is cleared when you close that document
or create/open a different document. If you open doc that already has
citations in it they will be listed in the Citations Palette.

In the case of a new document or one with no citations or to add additional
entries to the palette: At the lower right corner of the palette click the
button & select the Citation Source Manager. In that dialog you should find
all your existing entries in the left column (Master List). Select the ones
you need & click the Copy button to copy them to the right column (Current
List). Those will be in the palette when you close the Source Manager.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 11/23/08 2:31 PM, in article
(e-mail address removed), "angry lucie3" <angry

I bought this computer to help me with my school work it is a horror to know
this citation part is a joke.You spend all this time putting in citation and
referencing only to find you are finish and no citation or referencing in
your work.Now i supose you have to buy some other parts which will cost you
to buy another computer and the money list goes on and on with no
productivity. Point bland this is deceiving at best.
Thanks for nothing.I am stuck ,have to be hand writing my citations and
referencing I should sue microsoft if I fail my paper.

Thank you.

Hi Aliera,

I've crossposted this into the Word:mac discussion group as well as its
present location in the Winword document management
discussion group.

It is my understanding that the Word:mac 2008 Citation & Bibliography (C&B)
feature, while in a somewhat different User Interface,
is for the most part common to Word 2007 and Word 2008. Daiya Mitchell,
Word/mac MVP, among others there has experience from both
the Word user point of view and from the academia view point on this topic
(as can folks here in the WinWord group) and we can, I
hope, benefit from understanding, expanding and taming this feature through
discussion of it and the clarity others can add to to
this that I may overlook (or mistake) <g>. There have been discussions in
that group (as well as in the Word 'en Espanol'
discussion group on this feature

You bring up an interesting point about how Word formats the 'Works Cited'
and 'Bibliography' items inserted in Word documents when
you mentioned that

<<Word formats the bibliography/works cited entries incorrectly
for Chicago/Turabian style. The first line of an entry should be flush
left, but any additional lines must be indented 5 spaces.
It should be simple a simple matter of just indenting the text, but the
program won't let me do it.>>

You also mentioned that you expected Word's bibilography feature to pickup
footnotes to include as well, but the way the feature is
structured that isn't quite, as I understand, an intent.

As I see it, how Word 2007 does the bibliography creation is mainly 'behind
the scenes' but you can do a bit of tweaking without
knowing how to XML or needing to work with the underlying XML. (One of the
folks who frequents the Word:mac discussion group is
Joonhwan Lee - who has already done a bit of customizing of the underlying
XML and is, to my understanding, working on additional
tools that will make that a bit easier to do for the average user.

To my understanding, the Word 2007
Reference Tab=>Citation & Bibliography (C&B) Group
use of C&B-styles relates primarily to how the content that is presented for
each of the 10, Microsoft provided C&B-styles is
applied in three locations in Word:

1. The default fields shown for a specific Source reference type when
you're in
Manage Sources=>Source Manager=>Edit Source dialog

2. The content selected to be inserted in a document when you use
Insert Citation (where Word is inserting a 'Citation' field)
when you select 'Insert Citation'

3. The content and basic text formatting when you insert a {Bibliography}
field into a Word document by clicking on the
'Bibliography' dropdown choie. This is usually done from the out-of-the-box
pair of Word Document Building block entries in the
Bibliography gallery, which are:

- Bibliography
- Works Cited

Side note: Document Building blocks are Autotext engine driven reusable
content blocks of information accessible in several ways.
One of those ways includes the 'Bibliography gallery'. (There are 36
separately accessible Building Block Galleries in Word 2007).
All Building Block entries are managed and viewable from the Building Blocks
organizer in
Insert=>Quick Parts=>Building Block Organizer.
If you visit that dialog you'll see the listing for the two basic entries
mentioned above.

When you create a 'Works Cited' or 'Bibliography' in a Word document you are
inserting a content control that in the out-of-the-box
gallery entries consist of two parts

a. The first part of the entry is a title, formatted with the 'Heading 1'
Word paragraph style. It is not necessarily a 'silly
blue' <g> color that you mentioned, but rather it reflects the currently
applied theme, Quick Style set and Font Major/Minor pair
applied to the document. You can also add your own entries to the
Bibliography gallery, so that you can insert an entry with a
different heading, or no heading when you wish.

b. The second part of the bibliography field that takes on the formatting
of Word's Bibliography style is a listing Word builds
by reading the 'cited' (used in document) checkmark in the Manage Source
list and then each of the tagged entries there to create
individual elements of the Bibliography/WorksCited list. While you can
apply a different Word paragraph style to the bibliography
field, when you update the field/bibliogray Word throws off that change and
reapplies the currently active bibliography paragraph
style.

The 'Bibliography' paragraph style does not, out-of-the-box, appear to
contain any paragraph indenting. You can redefine that
paragraph style in Word for all documents created from a single template or
for just one document. If you believe that a 2nd line
indent is needed that could be part of a redefined Bibliography paragraph
style.

The Bibliography paragraph style is based on Word's 'normal' paragraph
style, and as it comes out-of-the-box it appears to be pretty
much the same as the 'normal' style.

When you insert either a Citation or a Bibliography/WorksCited entry into
your document Word queries the underlying XML/XSL files
for that style and enters what it's told by those files to select for
content for the currently chosen C&B-Style and the order it is
to arrange these in. For the bibliography it also applies on top of the
Bibliography paragraph style any direct formatting needed
for
italics, bold, underline and note reference/numbering.

[Word does not appear to include a 'Citation' style out of the box for
inserting individual Citations.]

Ideally, it would seem, prior to submitting a final paper, using the ability
of the Works Cited and Bibliography content control
entries, to convert to static text (so it doesn't get changed by reviewers).
Once it's static text you can certainly reapply a
different paragraph style, but would have to be careful to not undo the
direct formatting applied as described above.

Joonhwan Lee has a tool that works, so far, only on the mac last time I
looked, that allows you to drag and drop source entries
from BibTex onto the widget and it converts them to Word:mac 2008 sources.
It is available at
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~joonhwan/personal.html
Word 2007 is supposed to have a similar ability that allows sources to be
copied over using the reference pane, but that has to be
implemented by the provider of the content, as I understand it, and so far I
haven't run across a research pane source that does
this. There are other 3rd party tools becoming available to convert from/to
Word 2007 sources.

For issues where the underlying content fields or layout are considered to
be wrong/missing etc (including 'where is Harvard
Referencing Style' <g>) that would probably best be discussed separately
from the visual formatting. From what I gather, in
addition to two Microsoft articles on modifying the underlying XML/XSL
files, Joonhwan may be working on tools to do that as well.

================
THank you so much for your quick reply.

I had tried to move the arrows, but was moving the wrong one, so your advice
was helpful, thank you. I know other documentation
styles have similar formats, but I only have to worry about the
Chicago/Turabian for now.

Is there any way to totally customize the Reference Groups default settings?

I still don't understand why footnote reference entries aren't added to the
bibliography. There's no way to customize the Reference
group settings? Microsoft's formatting of the bibliography/works cited pages
is erroneous in silly ways. For example, I can only
imagine submitting a paper to my professor for review that had a bold, blue
"Works Cited" title. Luckily, that actually was easy to
fix.

The references group still has so many limitations, I just really wish
Microsoft had included in their 2007 version all the features offered by the
StyleEase or Endnote programs. It's well within their
capabilities to have done so. If the Office Suite had only cost me around
$40 I wouldn't be so demanding, but since I had to spend
$150 on it, I have higher expectations. >>
--

Bob Buckland ?
MS Office System Products MVP

*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*

 

[Kimega]

The master file that you refer to is for an individual document. When I
click on bibliography, I see :Insert Bibliography"," an active link and "save
selection to bibliography gallery," not an active link. How do I create a
Bibliography Gallery? I use many of my sources repeatedly for different
papers and online discussions.

Kimega

Rephrasing what Yves has already offered:

Assuming you've used the Citations Palette [View> Citations], the citations
you've typed are stored in a Master File. They automatically appear in the
Citations Palette, but the palette is cleared when you close that document
or create/open a different document. If you open doc that already has
citations in it they will be listed in the Citations Palette.

In the case of a new document or one with no citations or to add additional
entries to the palette: At the lower right corner of the palette click the
button & select the Citation Source Manager. In that dialog you should find
all your existing entries in the left column (Master List). Select the ones
you need & click the Copy button to copy them to the right column (Current
List). Those will be in the palette when you close the Source Manager.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 11/23/08 2:31 PM, in article
(e-mail address removed), "angry lucie3" <angry

I bought this computer to help me with my school work it is a horror to know
this citation part is a joke.You spend all this time putting in citation and
referencing only to find you are finish and no citation or referencing in
your work.Now i supose you have to buy some other parts which will cost you
to buy another computer and the money list goes on and on with no
productivity. Point bland this is deceiving at best.
Thanks for nothing.I am stuck ,have to be hand writing my citations and
referencing I should sue microsoft if I fail my paper.

Thank you.

:

Hi Aliera,

I've crossposted this into the Word:mac discussion group as well as its
present location in the Winword document management
discussion group.

It is my understanding that the Word:mac 2008 Citation & Bibliography (C&B)
feature, while in a somewhat different User Interface,
is for the most part common to Word 2007 and Word 2008. Daiya Mitchell,
Word/mac MVP, among others there has experience from both
the Word user point of view and from the academia view point on this topic
(as can folks here in the WinWord group) and we can, I
hope, benefit from understanding, expanding and taming this feature through
discussion of it and the clarity others can add to to
this that I may overlook (or mistake) <g>. There have been discussions in
that group (as well as in the Word 'en Espanol'
discussion group on this feature

You bring up an interesting point about how Word formats the 'Works Cited'
and 'Bibliography' items inserted in Word documents when
you mentioned that

<<Word formats the bibliography/works cited entries incorrectly
for Chicago/Turabian style. The first line of an entry should be flush
left, but any additional lines must be indented 5 spaces.
It should be simple a simple matter of just indenting the text, but the
program won't let me do it.>>

You also mentioned that you expected Word's bibilography feature to pickup
footnotes to include as well, but the way the feature is
structured that isn't quite, as I understand, an intent.

As I see it, how Word 2007 does the bibliography creation is mainly 'behind
the scenes' but you can do a bit of tweaking without
knowing how to XML or needing to work with the underlying XML. (One of the
folks who frequents the Word:mac discussion group is
Joonhwan Lee - who has already done a bit of customizing of the underlying
XML and is, to my understanding, working on additional
tools that will make that a bit easier to do for the average user.

To my understanding, the Word 2007
Reference Tab=>Citation & Bibliography (C&B) Group
use of C&B-styles relates primarily to how the content that is presented for
each of the 10, Microsoft provided C&B-styles is
applied in three locations in Word:

1. The default fields shown for a specific Source reference type when
you're in
Manage Sources=>Source Manager=>Edit Source dialog

2. The content selected to be inserted in a document when you use
Insert Citation (where Word is inserting a 'Citation' field)
when you select 'Insert Citation'

3. The content and basic text formatting when you insert a {Bibliography}
field into a Word document by clicking on the
'Bibliography' dropdown choie. This is usually done from the out-of-the-box
pair of Word Document Building block entries in the
Bibliography gallery, which are:

- Bibliography
- Works Cited

Side note: Document Building blocks are Autotext engine driven reusable
content blocks of information accessible in several ways.
One of those ways includes the 'Bibliography gallery'. (There are 36
separately accessible Building Block Galleries in Word 2007).
All Building Block entries are managed and viewable from the Building Blocks
organizer in
Insert=>Quick Parts=>Building Block Organizer.
If you visit that dialog you'll see the listing for the two basic entries
mentioned above.

When you create a 'Works Cited' or 'Bibliography' in a Word document you are
inserting a content control that in the out-of-the-box
gallery entries consist of two parts

a. The first part of the entry is a title, formatted with the 'Heading 1'
Word paragraph style. It is not necessarily a 'silly
blue' <g> color that you mentioned, but rather it reflects the currently
applied theme, Quick Style set and Font Major/Minor pair
applied to the document. You can also add your own entries to the
Bibliography gallery, so that you can insert an entry with a
different heading, or no heading when you wish.

b. The second part of the bibliography field that takes on the formatting
of Word's Bibliography style is a listing Word builds
by reading the 'cited' (used in document) checkmark in the Manage Source
list and then each of the tagged entries there to create
individual elements of the Bibliography/WorksCited list. While you can
apply a different Word paragraph style to the bibliography
field, when you update the field/bibliogray Word throws off that change and
reapplies the currently active bibliography paragraph
style.

The 'Bibliography' paragraph style does not, out-of-the-box, appear to
contain any paragraph indenting. You can redefine that
paragraph style in Word for all documents created from a single template or
for just one document. If you believe that a 2nd line
indent is needed that could be part of a redefined Bibliography paragraph
style.

The Bibliography paragraph style is based on Word's 'normal' paragraph
style, and as it comes out-of-the-box it appears to be pretty
much the same as the 'normal' style.

When you insert either a Citation or a Bibliography/WorksCited entry into
your document Word queries the underlying XML/XSL files
for that style and enters what it's told by those files to select for
content for the currently chosen C&B-Style and the order it is
to arrange these in. For the bibliography it also applies on top of the
Bibliography paragraph style any direct formatting needed
for
italics, bold, underline and note reference/numbering.

[Word does not appear to include a 'Citation' style out of the box for
inserting individual Citations.]

Ideally, it would seem, prior to submitting a final paper, using the ability
of the Works Cited and Bibliography content control
entries, to convert to static text (so it doesn't get changed by reviewers).
Once it's static text you can certainly reapply a
different paragraph style, but would have to be careful to not undo the
direct formatting applied as described above.

Joonhwan Lee has a tool that works, so far, only on the mac last time I
looked, that allows you to drag and drop source entries
from BibTex onto the widget and it converts them to Word:mac 2008 sources.
It is available at
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~joonhwan/personal.html
Word 2007 is supposed to have a similar ability that allows sources to be
copied over using the reference pane, but that has to be
implemented by the provider of the content, as I understand it, and so far I
haven't run across a research pane source that does
this. There are other 3rd party tools becoming available to convert from/to
Word 2007 sources.

For issues where the underlying content fields or layout are considered to
be wrong/missing etc (including 'where is Harvard
Referencing Style' <g>) that would probably best be discussed separately
from the visual formatting. From what I gather, in
addition to two Microsoft articles on modifying the underlying XML/XSL
files, Joonhwan may be working on tools to do that as well.

================
THank you so much for your quick reply.

I had tried to move the arrows, but was moving the wrong one, so your advice
was helpful, thank you. I know other documentation
styles have similar formats, but I only have to worry about the
Chicago/Turabian for now.

Is there any way to totally customize the Reference Groups default settings?

I still don't understand why footnote reference entries aren't added to the
bibliography. There's no way to customize the Reference
group settings? Microsoft's formatting of the bibliography/works cited pages
is erroneous in silly ways. For example, I can only
imagine submitting a paper to my professor for review that had a bold, blue
"Works Cited" title. Luckily, that actually was easy to
fix.

The references group still has so many limitations, I just really wish
Microsoft had included in their 2007 version all the features offered by the
StyleEase or Endnote programs. It's well within their
capabilities to have done so. If the Office Suite had only cost me around
$40 I wouldn't be so demanding, but since I had to spend
$150 on it, I have higher expectations. >>
--

Bob Buckland ?
MS Office System Products MVP

*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Kimega;

Please see the inline responses below:

The master file that you refer to is for an individual document.

No, it isn't. The Master List is available in order to select from it for
any new documents to which you need to add citations already accumulated...
That's why it's called the Master List. All citations you add or remove via
the +/- buttons in the Citations button are added to the Citations List for
that document as well as to the Master List. Read the second paragraph of my
response to which you are *replying*.

When I
click on bibliography, I see :Insert Bibliography"," an active link and "save
selection to bibliography gallery," not an active link.

The Bibliography group in the Elements Gallery does not store any specific
entries. The choices there simply generate a bibliography based on citations
in the document. If there are no citations inserted those bibliography
formats don't do much of anything. Just like a Table of Content you must
have entries "marked" in the document in order to generate the TOC.

How do I create a
Bibliography Gallery? I use many of my sources repeatedly for different
papers and online discussions.

As already described, you need to add your citations to the Master List
using the Citation Source Manager, *not* the Elements Gallery. Once you have
the Master List compiled you use the CSM to select which citations are to be
included in the current document to build that documents Citations List.
IOW, the Master List _is_ the "bibliography gallery" you're looking for, but
I get the impression that you haven't followed the directions to where it is
located - once again, click the button at the lower right corner of the
Citations Palette & choose Citation Source Manager from the dropdown.

Kimega

Also, for future reference, please don't insert your enquiries as a REPLY in
an existing thread. If you're not offering a suggestion or solution for the
original poster start a New Message & state all details particular to your
versions & issues of concern.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

Rephrasing what Yves has already offered:

Assuming you've used the Citations Palette [View> Citations], the citations
you've typed are stored in a Master File. They automatically appear in the
Citations Palette, but the palette is cleared when you close that document
or create/open a different document. If you open doc that already has
citations in it they will be listed in the Citations Palette.

In the case of a new document or one with no citations or to add additional
entries to the palette: At the lower right corner of the palette click the
button & select the Citation Source Manager. In that dialog you should find
all your existing entries in the left column (Master List). Select the ones
you need & click the Copy button to copy them to the right column (Current
List). Those will be in the palette when you close the Source Manager.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 11/23/08 2:31 PM, in article
(e-mail address removed), "angry lucie3" <angry

I bought this computer to help me with my school work it is a horror to know
this citation part is a joke.You spend all this time putting in citation and
referencing only to find you are finish and no citation or referencing in
your work.Now i supose you have to buy some other parts which will cost you
to buy another computer and the money list goes on and on with no
productivity. Point bland this is deceiving at best.
Thanks for nothing.I am stuck ,have to be hand writing my citations and
referencing I should sue microsoft if I fail my paper.

:

Thank you.

:

Hi Aliera,

I've crossposted this into the Word:mac discussion group as well as its
present location in the Winword document management
discussion group.

It is my understanding that the Word:mac 2008 Citation & Bibliography
(C&B)
feature, while in a somewhat different User Interface,
is for the most part common to Word 2007 and Word 2008. Daiya Mitchell,
Word/mac MVP, among others there has experience from both
the Word user point of view and from the academia view point on this topic
(as can folks here in the WinWord group) and we can, I
hope, benefit from understanding, expanding and taming this feature
through
discussion of it and the clarity others can add to to
this that I may overlook (or mistake) <g>. There have been discussions in
that group (as well as in the Word 'en Espanol'
discussion group on this feature

You bring up an interesting point about how Word formats the 'Works Cited'
and 'Bibliography' items inserted in Word documents when
you mentioned that

<<Word formats the bibliography/works cited entries incorrectly
for Chicago/Turabian style. The first line of an entry should be flush
left, but any additional lines must be indented 5 spaces.
It should be simple a simple matter of just indenting the text, but the
program won't let me do it.>>

You also mentioned that you expected Word's bibilography feature to pickup
footnotes to include as well, but the way the feature is
structured that isn't quite, as I understand, an intent.

As I see it, how Word 2007 does the bibliography creation is mainly
'behind
the scenes' but you can do a bit of tweaking without
knowing how to XML or needing to work with the underlying XML. (One of
the
folks who frequents the Word:mac discussion group is
Joonhwan Lee - who has already done a bit of customizing of the underlying
XML and is, to my understanding, working on additional
tools that will make that a bit easier to do for the average user.

To my understanding, the Word 2007
Reference Tab=>Citation & Bibliography (C&B) Group
use of C&B-styles relates primarily to how the content that is presented
for
each of the 10, Microsoft provided C&B-styles is
applied in three locations in Word:

1. The default fields shown for a specific Source reference type when
you're in
Manage Sources=>Source Manager=>Edit Source dialog

2. The content selected to be inserted in a document when you use
Insert Citation (where Word is inserting a 'Citation' field)
when you select 'Insert Citation'

3. The content and basic text formatting when you insert a {Bibliography}
field into a Word document by clicking on the
'Bibliography' dropdown choie. This is usually done from the
out-of-the-box
pair of Word Document Building block entries in the
Bibliography gallery, which are:

- Bibliography
- Works Cited

Side note: Document Building blocks are Autotext engine driven reusable
content blocks of information accessible in several ways.
One of those ways includes the 'Bibliography gallery'. (There are 36
separately accessible Building Block Galleries in Word 2007).
All Building Block entries are managed and viewable from the Building
Blocks
organizer in
Insert=>Quick Parts=>Building Block Organizer.
If you visit that dialog you'll see the listing for the two basic entries
mentioned above.

When you create a 'Works Cited' or 'Bibliography' in a Word document you
are
inserting a content control that in the out-of-the-box
gallery entries consist of two parts

a. The first part of the entry is a title, formatted with the 'Heading
1'
Word paragraph style. It is not necessarily a 'silly
blue' <g> color that you mentioned, but rather it reflects the currently
applied theme, Quick Style set and Font Major/Minor pair
applied to the document. You can also add your own entries to the
Bibliography gallery, so that you can insert an entry with a
different heading, or no heading when you wish.

b. The second part of the bibliography field that takes on the
formatting
of Word's Bibliography style is a listing Word builds
by reading the 'cited' (used in document) checkmark in the Manage Source
list and then each of the tagged entries there to create
individual elements of the Bibliography/WorksCited list. While you can
apply a different Word paragraph style to the bibliography
field, when you update the field/bibliogray Word throws off that change
and
reapplies the currently active bibliography paragraph
style.

The 'Bibliography' paragraph style does not, out-of-the-box, appear to
contain any paragraph indenting. You can redefine that
paragraph style in Word for all documents created from a single template
or
for just one document. If you believe that a 2nd line
indent is needed that could be part of a redefined Bibliography paragraph
style.

The Bibliography paragraph style is based on Word's 'normal' paragraph
style, and as it comes out-of-the-box it appears to be pretty
much the same as the 'normal' style.

When you insert either a Citation or a Bibliography/WorksCited entry into
your document Word queries the underlying XML/XSL files
for that style and enters what it's told by those files to select for
content for the currently chosen C&B-Style and the order it is
to arrange these in. For the bibliography it also applies on top of the
Bibliography paragraph style any direct formatting needed
for
italics, bold, underline and note reference/numbering.

[Word does not appear to include a 'Citation' style out of the box for
inserting individual Citations.]

Ideally, it would seem, prior to submitting a final paper, using the
ability
of the Works Cited and Bibliography content control
entries, to convert to static text (so it doesn't get changed by
reviewers).
Once it's static text you can certainly reapply a
different paragraph style, but would have to be careful to not undo the
direct formatting applied as described above.

Joonhwan Lee has a tool that works, so far, only on the mac last time I
looked, that allows you to drag and drop source entries
from BibTex onto the widget and it converts them to Word:mac 2008 sources.
It is available at
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~joonhwan/personal.html
Word 2007 is supposed to have a similar ability that allows sources to be
copied over using the reference pane, but that has to be
implemented by the provider of the content, as I understand it, and so far
I
haven't run across a research pane source that does
this. There are other 3rd party tools becoming available to convert
from/to
Word 2007 sources.

For issues where the underlying content fields or layout are considered to
be wrong/missing etc (including 'where is Harvard
Referencing Style' <g>) that would probably best be discussed separately
from the visual formatting. From what I gather, in
addition to two Microsoft articles on modifying the underlying XML/XSL
files, Joonhwan may be working on tools to do that as well.

================
THank you so much for your quick reply.

I had tried to move the arrows, but was moving the wrong one, so your
advice
was helpful, thank you. I know other documentation
styles have similar formats, but I only have to worry about the
Chicago/Turabian for now.

Is there any way to totally customize the Reference Groups default
settings?

I still don't understand why footnote reference entries aren't added to
the
bibliography. There's no way to customize the Reference
group settings? Microsoft's formatting of the bibliography/works cited
pages
is erroneous in silly ways. For example, I can only
imagine submitting a paper to my professor for review that had a bold,
blue
"Works Cited" title. Luckily, that actually was easy to
fix.

The references group still has so many limitations, I just really wish
Microsoft had included in their 2007 version all the features offered by
the
StyleEase or Endnote programs. It's well within their
capabilities to have done so. If the Office Suite had only cost me around
$40 I wouldn't be so demanding, but since I had to spend
$150 on it, I have higher expectations. >>
--

Bob Buckland ?
MS Office System Products MVP

*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*

 

[Kimega]

Thanks, Bob
You have made it much clearee. I appreciate your help.
Kimega

Hi Kimega;

Please see the inline responses below:

The master file that you refer to is for an individual document.

No, it isn't. The Master List is available in order to select from it for
any new documents to which you need to add citations already accumulated...
That's why it's called the Master List. All citations you add or remove via
the +/- buttons in the Citations button are added to the Citations List for
that document as well as to the Master List. Read the second paragraph of my
response to which you are *replying*.

When I
click on bibliography, I see :Insert Bibliography"," an active link and "save
selection to bibliography gallery," not an active link.

The Bibliography group in the Elements Gallery does not store any specific
entries. The choices there simply generate a bibliography based on citations
in the document. If there are no citations inserted those bibliography
formats don't do much of anything. Just like a Table of Content you must
have entries "marked" in the document in order to generate the TOC.

How do I create a
Bibliography Gallery? I use many of my sources repeatedly for different
papers and online discussions.

As already described, you need to add your citations to the Master List
using the Citation Source Manager, *not* the Elements Gallery. Once you have
the Master List compiled you use the CSM to select which citations are to be
included in the current document to build that documents Citations List.
IOW, the Master List _is_ the "bibliography gallery" you're looking for, but
I get the impression that you haven't followed the directions to where it is
located - once again, click the button at the lower right corner of the
Citations Palette & choose Citation Source Manager from the dropdown.

Kimega

Also, for future reference, please don't insert your enquiries as a REPLY in
an existing thread. If you're not offering a suggestion or solution for the
original poster start a New Message & state all details particular to your
versions & issues of concern.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

Rephrasing what Yves has already offered:

Assuming you've used the Citations Palette [View> Citations], the citations
you've typed are stored in a Master File. They automatically appear in the
Citations Palette, but the palette is cleared when you close that document
or create/open a different document. If you open doc that already has
citations in it they will be listed in the Citations Palette.

In the case of a new document or one with no citations or to add additional
entries to the palette: At the lower right corner of the palette click the
button & select the Citation Source Manager. In that dialog you should find
all your existing entries in the left column (Master List). Select the ones
you need & click the Copy button to copy them to the right column (Current
List). Those will be in the palette when you close the Source Manager.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 11/23/08 2:31 PM, in article
(e-mail address removed), "angry lucie3" <angry
(e-mail address removed)> wrote:

I bought this computer to help me with my school work it is a horror to know
this citation part is a joke.You spend all this time putting in citation and
referencing only to find you are finish and no citation or referencing in
your work.Now i supose you have to buy some other parts which will cost you
to buy another computer and the money list goes on and on with no
productivity. Point bland this is deceiving at best.
Thanks for nothing.I am stuck ,have to be hand writing my citations and
referencing I should sue microsoft if I fail my paper.

:

Thank you.

:

Hi Aliera,

I've crossposted this into the Word:mac discussion group as well as its
present location in the Winword document management
discussion group.

It is my understanding that the Word:mac 2008 Citation & Bibliography
(C&B)
feature, while in a somewhat different User Interface,
is for the most part common to Word 2007 and Word 2008. Daiya Mitchell,
Word/mac MVP, among others there has experience from both
the Word user point of view and from the academia view point on this topic
(as can folks here in the WinWord group) and we can, I
hope, benefit from understanding, expanding and taming this feature
through
discussion of it and the clarity others can add to to
this that I may overlook (or mistake) <g>. There have been discussions in
that group (as well as in the Word 'en Espanol'
discussion group on this feature

You bring up an interesting point about how Word formats the 'Works Cited'
and 'Bibliography' items inserted in Word documents when
you mentioned that

<<Word formats the bibliography/works cited entries incorrectly
for Chicago/Turabian style. The first line of an entry should be flush
left, but any additional lines must be indented 5 spaces.
It should be simple a simple matter of just indenting the text, but the
program won't let me do it.>>

You also mentioned that you expected Word's bibilography feature to pickup
footnotes to include as well, but the way the feature is
structured that isn't quite, as I understand, an intent.

As I see it, how Word 2007 does the bibliography creation is mainly
'behind
the scenes' but you can do a bit of tweaking without
knowing how to XML or needing to work with the underlying XML. (One of
the
folks who frequents the Word:mac discussion group is
Joonhwan Lee - who has already done a bit of customizing of the underlying
XML and is, to my understanding, working on additional
tools that will make that a bit easier to do for the average user.

To my understanding, the Word 2007
Reference Tab=>Citation & Bibliography (C&B) Group
use of C&B-styles relates primarily to how the content that is presented
for
each of the 10, Microsoft provided C&B-styles is
applied in three locations in Word:

1. The default fields shown for a specific Source reference type when
you're in
Manage Sources=>Source Manager=>Edit Source dialog

2. The content selected to be inserted in a document when you use
Insert Citation (where Word is inserting a 'Citation' field)
when you select 'Insert Citation'

3. The content and basic text formatting when you insert a {Bibliography}
field into a Word document by clicking on the
'Bibliography' dropdown choie. This is usually done from the
out-of-the-box
pair of Word Document Building block entries in the
Bibliography gallery, which are:

- Bibliography
- Works Cited

Side note: Document Building blocks are Autotext engine driven reusable
content blocks of information accessible in several ways.
One of those ways includes the 'Bibliography gallery'. (There are 36
separately accessible Building Block Galleries in Word 2007).
All Building Block entries are managed and viewable from the Building
Blocks
organizer in
Insert=>Quick Parts=>Building Block Organizer.
If you visit that dialog you'll see the listing for the two basic entries
mentioned above.

When you create a 'Works Cited' or 'Bibliography' in a Word document you
are
inserting a content control that in the out-of-the-box
gallery entries consist of two parts

a. The first part of the entry is a title, formatted with the 'Heading
1'
Word paragraph style. It is not necessarily a 'silly
blue' <g> color that you mentioned, but rather it reflects the currently
applied theme, Quick Style set and Font Major/Minor pair
applied to the document. You can also add your own entries to the
Bibliography gallery, so that you can insert an entry with a
different heading, or no heading when you wish.

b. The second part of the bibliography field that takes on the
formatting
of Word's Bibliography style is a listing Word builds
by reading the 'cited' (used in document) checkmark in the Manage Source
list and then each of the tagged entries there to create
individual elements of the Bibliography/WorksCited list. While you can
apply a different Word paragraph style to the bibliography
field, when you update the field/bibliogray Word throws off that change
and
reapplies the currently active bibliography paragraph
style.

The 'Bibliography' paragraph style does not, out-of-the-box, appear to
contain any paragraph indenting. You can redefine that
paragraph style in Word for all documents created from a single template
or
for just one document. If you believe that a 2nd line
indent is needed that could be part of a redefined Bibliography paragraph
style.

The Bibliography paragraph style is based on Word's 'normal' paragraph
style, and as it comes out-of-the-box it appears to be pretty
much the same as the 'normal' style.

When you insert either a Citation or a Bibliography/WorksCited entry into
your document Word queries the underlying XML/XSL files
for that style and enters what it's told by those files to select for
content for the currently chosen C&B-Style and the order it is
to arrange these in. For the bibliography it also applies on top of the
Bibliography paragraph style any direct formatting needed
for
italics, bold, underline and note reference/numbering.

[Word does not appear to include a 'Citation' style out of the box for
inserting individual Citations.]

Ideally, it would seem, prior to submitting a final paper, using the
ability
of the Works Cited and Bibliography content control
entries, to convert to static text (so it doesn't get changed by
reviewers).
Once it's static text you can certainly reapply a
different paragraph style, but would have to be careful to not undo the
direct formatting applied as described above.

Joonhwan Lee has a tool that works, so far, only on the mac last time I
looked, that allows you to drag and drop source entries
from BibTex onto the widget and it converts them to Word:mac 2008 sources.
It is available at
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~joonhwan/personal.html
Word 2007 is supposed to have a similar ability that allows sources to be
copied over using the reference pane, but that has to be
implemented by the provider of the content, as I understand it, and so far
I
haven't run across a research pane source that does
this. There are other 3rd party tools becoming available to convert
from/to
Word 2007 sources.

For issues where the underlying content fields or layout are considered to
be wrong/missing etc (including 'where is Harvard
Referencing Style' <g>) that would probably best be discussed separately
from the visual formatting. From what I gather, in
addition to two Microsoft articles on modifying the underlying XML/XSL
files, Joonhwan may be working on tools to do that as well.

================
THank you so much for your quick reply.

I had tried to move the arrows, but was moving the wrong one, so your
advice
was helpful, thank you. I know other documentation
styles have similar formats, but I only have to worry about the
Chicago/Turabian for now.

Is there any way to totally customize the Reference Groups default
settings?

I still don't understand why footnote reference entries aren't added to
the
bibliography. There's no way to customize the Reference
group settings? Microsoft's formatting of the bibliography/works cited
pages
is erroneous in silly ways. For example, I can only
imagine submitting a paper to my professor for review that had a bold,
blue
"Works Cited" title. Luckily, that actually was easy to
fix.

The references group still has so many limitations, I just really wish
Microsoft had included in their 2007 version all the features offered by
the
StyleEase or Endnote programs. It's well within their
capabilities to have done so. If the Office Suite had only cost me around
$40 I wouldn't be so demanding, but since I had to spend
$150 on it, I have higher expectations. >>
--

Bob Buckland ?
MS Office System Products MVP

*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*