Way to identify Table styles

[Jeff Wiseman]

Is there as easy way to identify what table style was used to
create a table with?

E.g., select the table and then ????

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Jeff -

It depends on how the table was formatted. If a Table Style was actually
applied the name of the style should appear in the Current Style list in the
Formatting Palette as well as the Styles List on the Formatting Toolbar...
just like a Paragraph Style.

However, if the Table AutoFormat feature was used those list items will
simply indicate Table Grid. With your insertion point in the table go to
Table> Table AutoFormat & see which one is selected in the list.

It can be deceptive if a Table Style was applied & Table AutoFormat was used
later - the list items will continue to display the name of the style that
was previously applied even though the formatting of the table no longer
complies with the style's attributes.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Clive Huggan]

Brillo, Bob!

The fiasco you describe is one reason why I format my tables totally
avoiding Word's "helpfulness", then make the various types of tables into
AutoText items that I can subsequently invoke with a quick keyboard
shortcut.

For anyone else who would like a fuller description (Bob knows it all,
surprise surprise), see the article "Example ‹ creating and inserting a
pre-formatted table via AutoText" on pages 124 and 125 of some notes on the
way I use Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word to Your Will", which are
available as a free download from the Word MVPs' website
(http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html).

[Note: "Bend Word to your will" is designed to be used electronically and
most subjects are self-contained dictionary-style entries. If you decide to
read more widely than the item I've referred to, it's important to read the
front end of the document -- especially pages 3 and 5 -- so you can select
some Word settings that will allow you to use the document effectively.]

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================

 

[CyberTaz]

"Brillo"??? In this part of the world that's the brand name of
soap-impregnated steel wool scouring pad ;-}

http://www.brillo.com/

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

Brillo, Bob!

The fiasco you describe is one reason why I format my tables totally
avoiding Word's "helpfulness", then make the various types of tables into
AutoText items that I can subsequently invoke with a quick keyboard
shortcut.

For anyone else who would like a fuller description (Bob knows it all,
surprise surprise), see the article "Example ‹ creating and inserting a
pre-formatted table via AutoText" on pages 124 and 125 of some notes on the
way I use Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word to Your Will", which are
available as a free download from the Word MVPs' website
(http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html).

[Note: "Bend Word to your will" is designed to be used electronically and
most subjects are self-contained dictionary-style entries. If you decide to
read more widely than the item I've referred to, it's important to read the
front end of the document -- especially pages 3 and 5 -- so you can select
some Word settings that will allow you to use the document effectively.]

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================

Hi Jeff -

It depends on how the table was formatted. If a Table Style was actually
applied the name of the style should appear in the Current Style list in the
Formatting Palette as well as the Styles List on the Formatting Toolbar...
just like a Paragraph Style.

However, if the Table AutoFormat feature was used those list items will
simply indicate Table Grid. With your insertion point in the table go to
Table> Table AutoFormat & see which one is selected in the list.

It can be deceptive if a Table Style was applied & Table AutoFormat was used
later - the list items will continue to display the name of the style that
was previously applied even though the formatting of the table no longer
complies with the style's attributes.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Phillip Jones]

Taz,

You have to remember he is "from the Land down Under" as Described in
the song from "Men at Work" ;-)

"Brillo"??? In this part of the world that's the brand name of
soap-impregnated steel wool scouring pad ;-}

http://www.brillo.com/

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

Brillo, Bob!

The fiasco you describe is one reason why I format my tables totally
avoiding Word's "helpfulness", then make the various types of tables into
AutoText items that I can subsequently invoke with a quick keyboard
shortcut.

For anyone else who would like a fuller description (Bob knows it all,
surprise surprise), see the article "Example ‹ creating and inserting a
pre-formatted table via AutoText" on pages 124 and 125 of some notes on the
way I use Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word to Your Will", which are
available as a free download from the Word MVPs' website
(http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html).

[Note: "Bend Word to your will" is designed to be used electronically and
most subjects are self-contained dictionary-style entries. If you decide to
read more widely than the item I've referred to, it's important to read the
front end of the document -- especially pages 3 and 5 -- so you can select
some Word settings that will allow you to use the document effectively.]

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, somy
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================

Hi Jeff -

It depends on how the table was formatted. If a Table Style was actually
applied the name of the style should appear in the Current Style listin the
Formatting Palette as well as the Styles List on the Formatting Toolbar...
just like a Paragraph Style.

However, if the Table AutoFormat feature was used those list items will
simply indicate Table Grid. With your insertion point in the table goto
Table> Table AutoFormat & see which one is selected in the list.

It can be deceptive if a Table Style was applied & Table AutoFormat was used
later - the list items will continue to display the name of the stylethat
was previously applied even though the formatting of the table no longer
complies with the style's attributes.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 8/6/08 10:01 PM, in article O6ZoMGD#[email protected],"Jeff

Is there as easy way to identify what table style was used to
create a table with?

E.g., select the table and then ????

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[Phillip Jones]

Hey Taz,
pass this link on to him:

"Brillo"??? In this part of the world that's the brand name of
soap-impregnated steel wool scouring pad ;-}

http://www.brillo.com/

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

Brillo, Bob!

The fiasco you describe is one reason why I format my tables totally
avoiding Word's "helpfulness", then make the various types of tables into
AutoText items that I can subsequently invoke with a quick keyboard
shortcut.

For anyone else who would like a fuller description (Bob knows it all,
surprise surprise), see the article "Example ‹ creating and inserting a
pre-formatted table via AutoText" on pages 124 and 125 of some notes on the
way I use Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word to Your Will", which are
available as a free download from the Word MVPs' website
(http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html).

[Note: "Bend Word to your will" is designed to be used electronically and
most subjects are self-contained dictionary-style entries. If you decide to
read more widely than the item I've referred to, it's important to read the
front end of the document -- especially pages 3 and 5 -- so you can select
some Word settings that will allow you to use the document effectively.]

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, somy
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================

Hi Jeff -

It depends on how the table was formatted. If a Table Style was actually
applied the name of the style should appear in the Current Style listin the
Formatting Palette as well as the Styles List on the Formatting Toolbar...
just like a Paragraph Style.

However, if the Table AutoFormat feature was used those list items will
simply indicate Table Grid. With your insertion point in the table goto
Table> Table AutoFormat & see which one is selected in the list.

It can be deceptive if a Table Style was applied & Table AutoFormat was used
later - the list items will continue to display the name of the stylethat
was previously applied even though the formatting of the table no longer
complies with the style's attributes.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 8/6/08 10:01 PM, in article O6ZoMGD#[email protected],"Jeff

Is there as easy way to identify what table style was used to
create a table with?

E.g., select the table and then ????

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[Clive Huggan]

Yes, it used to be in Australia too. Maybe still is.

Australians habitually, in the vernacular, lengthen short words and shorten
long ones.

I refuse to use "awesome". Everything is "awesome" nowadays. Even the
checkout chick at our local supermarket said it was awesome when I happened
to give her the correct change the other day, for goodness sake.

Clive
=====

"Brillo"??? In this part of the world that's the brand name of
soap-impregnated steel wool scouring pad ;-}

http://www.brillo.com/

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

Brillo, Bob!

The fiasco you describe is one reason why I format my tables totally
avoiding Word's "helpfulness", then make the various types of tables into
AutoText items that I can subsequently invoke with a quick keyboard
shortcut.

For anyone else who would like a fuller description (Bob knows it all,
surprise surprise), see the article "Example ‹ creating and inserting a
pre-formatted table via AutoText" on pages 124 and 125 of some notes on the
way I use Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word to Your Will", which are
available as a free download from the Word MVPs' website
(http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html).

[Note: "Bend Word to your will" is designed to be used electronically and
most subjects are self-contained dictionary-style entries. If you decide to
read more widely than the item I've referred to, it's important to read the
front end of the document -- especially pages 3 and 5 -- so you can select
some Word settings that will allow you to use the document effectively.]

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================

Hi Jeff -

It depends on how the table was formatted. If a Table Style was actually
applied the name of the style should appear in the Current Style list in the
Formatting Palette as well as the Styles List on the Formatting Toolbar...
just like a Paragraph Style.

However, if the Table AutoFormat feature was used those list items will
simply indicate Table Grid. With your insertion point in the table go to
Table> Table AutoFormat & see which one is selected in the list.

It can be deceptive if a Table Style was applied & Table AutoFormat was used
later - the list items will continue to display the name of the style that
was previously applied even though the formatting of the table no longer
complies with the style's attributes.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 8/6/08 10:01 PM, in article O6ZoMGD#[email protected], "Jeff

Is there as easy way to identify what table style was used to
create a table with?

E.g., select the table and then ????

 

[John McGhie]

You also have to remember that he's bigger and grumpier than you are

Yes, you do have to remember that

Taz,

You have to remember he is "from the Land down Under" as Described in
the song from "Men at Work" ;-)

"Brillo"??? In this part of the world that's the brand name of
soap-impregnated steel wool scouring pad ;-}

http://www.brillo.com/

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

Brillo, Bob!

The fiasco you describe is one reason why I format my tables totally
avoiding Word's "helpfulness", then make the various types of tables into
AutoText items that I can subsequently invoke with a quick keyboard
shortcut.

For anyone else who would like a fuller description (Bob knows it all,
surprise surprise), see the article "Example ‹ creating and inserting a
pre-formatted table via AutoText" on pages 124 and 125 of some notes on the
way I use Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word to Your Will", which are
available as a free download from the Word MVPs' website
(http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html).

[Note: "Bend Word to your will" is designed to be used electronically and
most subjects are self-contained dictionary-style entries. If you decide to
read more widely than the item I've referred to, it's important to read the
front end of the document -- especially pages 3 and 5 -- so you can select
some Word settings that will allow you to use the document effectively.]

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================


On 7/8/08 2:42 PM, in article C4BFF55E.40598%[email protected],

Hi Jeff -

It depends on how the table was formatted. If a Table Style was actually
applied the name of the style should appear in the Current Style list in
the
Formatting Palette as well as the Styles List on the Formatting Toolbar...
just like a Paragraph Style.

However, if the Table AutoFormat feature was used those list items will
simply indicate Table Grid. With your insertion point in the table go to
Table> Table AutoFormat & see which one is selected in the list.

It can be deceptive if a Table Style was applied & Table AutoFormat was
used
later - the list items will continue to display the name of the style that
was previously applied even though the formatting of the table no longer
complies with the style's attributes.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 8/6/08 10:01 PM, in article O6ZoMGD#[email protected], "Jeff

Is there as easy way to identify what table style was used to
create a table with?

E.g., select the table and then ????

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

 

[Jeff Wiseman]

Hi Jeff -

It depends on how the table was formatted. If a Table Style was actually
applied the name of the style should appear in the Current Style list in the
Formatting Palette as well as the Styles List on the Formatting Toolbar...
just like a Paragraph Style.

However, if the Table AutoFormat feature was used those list items will
simply indicate Table Grid. With your insertion point in the table go to
Table> Table AutoFormat & see which one is selected in the list.

It can be deceptive if a Table Style was applied & Table AutoFormat was used
later - the list items will continue to display the name of the style that
was previously applied even though the formatting of the table no longer
complies with the style's attributes.

Thanks for that. As I thought, it is quite inconsistent.

I played around a bit and saw varying behaviours with this. You
can't simply select a table and consistently see the format style
that was applied to it. You also can't select a component (i.e.,
paragraph) in the cell of a table and expect the style applied to
it to be correctly displayed either.

My original question was based on an issue I am just starting to
look at. Most of the documentation that I am currently dealing
with starts out in Telelogic's DOORS application. Each object
(i.e., "paragraph") in the DOORS database can have umpteen
attributes attached to it (e.g., date created, created by who,
requirement or not, project number that its associated with,
etc.). One of these is a "paragraph style" attribute which is
used when exporting documents from the database into Word.

When you export to Word from DOORS, you identify a Word Template
that it is to use when creating the new document (defaults to
Normal of course). If the "paragraph style" attribute was not set
in DOORS, when it gets to Word it is handled as having no
formatting (i.e., usually set to Normal).

If it is possible, I would like to try and define a table format
in the export template who's cell components would default to
something other than "Normal" for unformatted DOORS objects.
E.g., I would like DOORS table cell objects that have not had
their paragraph style attribute set to come over as something
like "tbl:bodyl" in the Word table.

In order to do this, I need to understand the way Word table
formats work and interact with the paragraph styles used within
it and the ability to see what table style has been applied is a
part of this. This inconsistency of how Word does this is part of
the problem I'm having in figuring this out since I'm not clearly
seeing where table style formats, table formats, table component
style formats and table component styles (and maybe even table
component character style formats) can be delineated.

I guess the bottom line is that I need to better understand how
the hierarchy and inheritances of the table structures and styles
work internally. Any suggestions of a good read on this? MS's
documentation seems more geared to selling you on the features of
their tables than on how to really control them.

 

[Phillip Jones]

The Grumpier part may be may be correct.

But the Bigger than me. I have my Doubts.

You also have to remember that he's bigger and grumpier than you are

Yes, you do have to remember that

Taz,

You have to remember he is "from the Land down Under" as Described in
the song from "Men at Work" ;-)

"Brillo"??? In this part of the world that's the brand name of
soap-impregnated steel wool scouring pad ;-}

http://www.brillo.com/

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 8/7/08 1:38 AM, in article
C4C0C78D.3A719%[email protected], "Clive Huggan"

Brillo, Bob!

The fiasco you describe is one reason why I format my tables totally
avoiding Word's "helpfulness", then make the various types of tablesinto
AutoText items that I can subsequently invoke with a quick keyboard
shortcut.

For anyone else who would like a fuller description (Bob knows it all,
surprise surprise), see the article "Example ‹ creating and inserting a
pre-formatted table via AutoText" on pages 124 and 125 of some noteson the
way I use Word for the Mac, titled "Bend Word to Your Will", which are
available as a free download from the Word MVPs' website
(http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html).

[Note: "Bend Word to your will" is designed to be used electronically and
most subjects are self-contained dictionary-style entries. If you decide to
read more widely than the item I've referred to, it's important to read the
front end of the document -- especially pages 3 and 5 -- so you can select
some Word settings that will allow you to use the document effectively.]

Cheers,

Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
(My time zone is 5-11 hours different from the Americas and Europe, so my
follow-on responses to those regions can be delayed)
====================================================


On 7/8/08 2:42 PM, in article C4BFF55E.40598%[email protected],

Hi Jeff -

It depends on how the table was formatted. If a Table Style was actually
applied the name of the style should appear in the Current Style list in
the
Formatting Palette as well as the Styles List on the Formatting Toolbar...
just like a Paragraph Style.

However, if the Table AutoFormat feature was used those list items will
simply indicate Table Grid. With your insertion point in the table go to
Table> Table AutoFormat & see which one is selected in the list.

It can be deceptive if a Table Style was applied & Table AutoFormatwas
used
later - the list items will continue to display the name of the style that
was previously applied even though the formatting of the table no longer
complies with the style's attributes.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 8/6/08 10:01 PM, in article O6ZoMGD#[email protected], "Jeff

Is there as easy way to identify what table style was used to
create a table with?

E.g., select the table and then ????

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[CyberTaz]

Thanks for that. As I thought, it is quite inconsistent.

I played around a bit and saw varying behaviours with this. You
can't simply select a table and consistently see the format style
that was applied to it. You also can't select a component (i.e.,
paragraph) in the cell of a table and expect the style applied to
it to be correctly displayed either.

My original question was based on an issue I am just starting to
look at. Most of the documentation that I am currently dealing
with starts out in Telelogic's DOORS application. Each object
(i.e., "paragraph") in the DOORS database can have umpteen
attributes attached to it (e.g., date created, created by who,
requirement or not, project number that its associated with,
etc.). One of these is a "paragraph style" attribute which is
used when exporting documents from the database into Word.

When you export to Word from DOORS, you identify a Word Template
that it is to use when creating the new document (defaults to
Normal of course). If the "paragraph style" attribute was not set
in DOORS, when it gets to Word it is handled as having no
formatting (i.e., usually set to Normal).

If it is possible, I would like to try and define a table format
in the export template who's cell components would default to
something other than "Normal" for unformatted DOORS objects.
E.g., I would like DOORS table cell objects that have not had
their paragraph style attribute set to come over as something
like "tbl:bodyl" in the Word table.

In order to do this, I need to understand the way Word table
formats work and interact with the paragraph styles used within
it and the ability to see what table style has been applied is a
part of this. This inconsistency of how Word does this is part of
the problem I'm having in figuring this out since I'm not clearly
seeing where table style formats, table formats, table component
style formats and table component styles (and maybe even table
component character style formats) can be delineated.

I guess the bottom line is that I need to better understand how
the hierarchy and inheritances of the table structures and styles
work internally. Any suggestions of a good read on this? MS's
documentation seems more geared to selling you on the features of
their tables than on how to really control them.

I'm afraid I can't offer any suggestions as I've not had any experience of
that nature. However, I believe you have your work cut out for you I'm
sure you'll find that Shauna Kelly explains the issues far better than I
could & her site provides some additional links. In a nutshell, it sounds
like Styles are the key to success & tables don't play nicely with styles:

http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/tablestyles/index.html

Additionally you'll glean some insights from live Huggan's "Bend Word..."
beginning on page 64, downloadable from:

http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html

Whether any of what's written by those two has changed for the better with
the advent of 2007/2008 OOXML file format... Well, it's a little to soon to
tell. Perhaps you'd like to spearhead the investigation

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Clive Huggan]

I'm afraid I can't offer any suggestions as I've not had any experience of
that nature. However, I believe you have your work cut out for you I'm
sure you'll find that Shauna Kelly explains the issues far better than I
could & her site provides some additional links. In a nutshell, it sounds
like Styles are the key to success & tables don't play nicely with styles:

http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/tablestyles/index.html

Additionally you'll glean some insights from live Huggan's "Bend Word..."
beginning on page 64, downloadable from:

http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html

Whether any of what's written by those two has changed for the better with
the advent of 2007/2008 OOXML file format... Well, it's a little to soon to
tell. Perhaps you'd like to spearhead the investigation

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

Thanks for the additional page reference (64), Bob; I had missed that. On
page 65, in the panel 'I never use "Table Style"', I quote John McGhie to
summarize some of the problems you have experienced (albeit not using DOORS)
-- but onle some; I can't see the point of spending more time describing yet
more dimensions of a profound failure to understand and test). Then I
conclude:

'I avoid all this by applying styles based on body text (my ³bt² style),
which I titled ³table text,tt² and ³table heading,th². Their characteristics
are described in Appendix B ... starting on page 172.'

Jeff, this practice appears to be relevant to your wish:

My earlier comments about using AutoText to insert the table (and I should
say I often insert it to transfer text into it from a hopelessly mired table
prepared in all sincerity by a colleague) has more to do with usability --
if one can easily instigate exactly the type of table one needs, as simply
as Word's broken default mechanism, why bother? Hence my comment:

'In practice I rarely think about these problems because I almost invariably
insert a table already pre-formatted the way I prefer, via a three-letter
AutoText entry as shown on page 124. And it¹s so simple that way.'

On page 122 there is an article titled 'Nowadays I don¹t apply Normal style
to any paragraph' that might be interesting.

And Shauna's article is well worth reading.

Cheers,

Clive
=====

 

[Jeff Wiseman]

Thanks so much for the input guys. I absolutely HATE it when my
intuition about such things is so dead-right :-(

The info that you provided actually answered my questions to a
large extent (especially Shauna's article). Table "Styles" are
really not "Styles" at all. If someone argues that they are, then
they are EXTREMELY broken. What they actually are appear to be
some software developer's shortcut to getting a "feature" into
the next release.

Again, my problem is that I've worked with programs that use true
table styles and so I tend to think in the usual orthogonal way
which, of course, never seems to apply to Word...

I'd like to have a styles menu where in addiiton to "All Styles"
I could select "All Useful Styles" and get rid of the huge list
of bogus table styles I have to scroll through to get to my
"Title" styles

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Jeff -

<snip>

I'd like to have a styles menu where in addiiton to "All Styles"
I could select "All Useful Styles" and get rid of the huge list
of bogus table styles I have to scroll through to get to my
"Title" styles

<snip>

If you create a template that contains your custom styles, in any docs based
on that template the Styles lists on the Formatting Toolbar & the Formatting
Palette will display them when you have Available Styles selected rather
than displaying All Styles. You can also add your styles to the Normal
template to get the same result in any docs based on it.

In "Bend Word..." you'll find suggestions beginning on page 89, and if you
go that route you'll also want to follow the advice beginning on page 53
pertaining to backing up your Normal template.

HTH |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Clive Huggan]

Thanks so much for the input guys. I absolutely HATE it when my
intuition about such things is so dead-right :-(

The info that you provided actually answered my questions to a
large extent (especially Shauna's article). Table "Styles" are
really not "Styles" at all. If someone argues that they are, then
they are EXTREMELY broken. What they actually are appear to be
some software developer's shortcut to getting a "feature" into
the next release.

Oh so likely!

Again, my problem is that I've worked with programs that use true
table styles and so I tend to think in the usual orthogonal way
which, of course, never seems to apply to Word...

I'd like to have a styles menu where in addiiton to "All Styles"
I could select "All Useful Styles" and get rid of the huge list
of bogus table styles I have to scroll through to get to my
"Title" styles

You need deep sympathy, Jeff! All that scrolling...

I'm doing a re-write of the styles narratives in "Bend Word to Your Will"
(http://word.mvps.org/Mac/Bend/BendWordToYourWill.html) and have increased
the emphasis on applying styles by keyboard shortcuts, among other changes:
on reflection I only "nibble" at the topic, albeit in several places. Since
the re-write won't be finished for a couple of months yet, here is the bit
that's relevant to our discussion:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I find it's so quick to apply styles by keyboard shortcuts that I haven't
been near a scrolling list of styles for years. Word's default keyboard
shortcut is Command-Shift-s followed by characters to identify the style.
Those characters could be the entire name of the style, but to save time I
limit the characters to either one or two. Here's an example of where I only
need use one: to apply a "Heading 1" style, I simply key Command-Shift-s
followed by the numeral 1 then hit the Return key. For text in tables, I key
Command-Shift-s followed by tt then hit the Return key; for column headings
it's th.

To avail yourself of this time-saving option, you need to take a once-off
action in your Normal template. For Heading 1, re-define the style name as
"Heading 1,1" -- note that there is no space after the comma (and of course
the quotation marks aren't included). And so on through the heading style
hierarchy.

Similarly, the style I created for table text is titled "table text,tt" and
for table column headings "table hdg,th".

And the same again with my body text styles ‹ such as "comment para,cp".

Notice that I don't bother to use upper case for any of my own style names.

With the half dozen styles I use very frequently, I've dispensed altogether
with the longer part of the name. Examples are my style "bt", standing for
"body text", and frequently used sub-paragraph styles ("s" when I key
bullets manually via Option-8, though I actually use an AutoCorrect entry
that's simpler to key -- and "sb" when I want bullets to be automatically
applied as part of the sub-paragraph style). But apart from the "bt"
instance, there's no particular need to shorten them; I just felt like it.

(Ignore this if you don't want the detail: the particular reason why I
titled my main body text style as "bt" rather than "body text, bt" was that
in some displays of Word's toolbars -- especially when customized -- the
",bt" suffix is not visible. I did not want to have the colleagues with whom
I develop documents confuse my style with Word's default "Body Text" style,
which if applied by them could potentially over-ride my style's
characteristics, as described on page 120 of "Bend Word to Your Will".)

Other characteristics of my Heading 1 styles are in the table on pages 97-98
of "Bend Word to Your Will" (where there is more information on this topic).
Specifications of other styles I frequently use are on page 172.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

More food for thought?

Cheers,

Clive
=====

 

[Jeff Wiseman]

Thanks again Bob and Clive for all the great info!

I was once able to avoid having to really deal with Word for many
years. Only the most fundamental skills for reading a document
was all I needed.

Then I started working for a U.S. Government contractor...

I realized then that my "ignorance from Word is bliss" condition
of necessity had to change. So I began visiting this group, got a
copy of "Bend Word" and perused several of Shauna's articles. My
company even let me use all the time doing this against my annual
training hours! In about 1-2 weeks of intense revelation (i.e.,
reading "Bend Word" and experimenting with all the suggestions),
I had gotten up to speed to the point that I then had others here
coming to me for help. The help I've received from this group has
benefitted many others in my company.

The problem here (at my place of employment) is that every
document seems to be based on a 10th generation starting point.
You know--templates that aren't templates and cover pages with
logos and introductions that were originated 10 years ago and
have found their way through at least 6 other documents before
arriving on my desk! Many of these have gone through multiple
merges as well. I rarely have the time and opportunity to "make
them mine" as far as cleanup goes, so I usually am just doing
what I can to make it more tolerable for the next guy down the line.

I'm sort of an Anti-Entropy guy--a shade tree mechanic in Word's
wilderness. A lover of puzzles with a morbid fascination in the
frequently bizzare circumstances that can only be created with
this product...

And so I continue to lurk in m.p.m.o.w, gleaning what I can.
Because when I learn more, it seems to eventually make a lot of
people around here very happy

On behalf of me and my fellow employees, thanks to all for the
assistance you've provided! Many have slept better knowing that
their bullets were now all from the same font and number list

 

[Clive Huggan]

Thanks again Bob and Clive for all the great info!

I was once able to avoid having to really deal with Word for many
years. Only the most fundamental skills for reading a document
was all I needed.

Then I started working for a U.S. Government contractor...

I realized then that my "ignorance from Word is bliss" condition
of necessity had to change. So I began visiting this group, got a
copy of "Bend Word" and perused several of Shauna's articles. My
company even let me use all the time doing this against my annual
training hours! In about 1-2 weeks of intense revelation (i.e.,
reading "Bend Word" and experimenting with all the suggestions),
I had gotten up to speed to the point that I then had others here
coming to me for help. The help I've received from this group has
benefitted many others in my company.

The problem here (at my place of employment) is that every
document seems to be based on a 10th generation starting point.
You know--templates that aren't templates and cover pages with
logos and introductions that were originated 10 years ago and
have found their way through at least 6 other documents before
arriving on my desk! Many of these have gone through multiple
merges as well. I rarely have the time and opportunity to "make
them mine" as far as cleanup goes, so I usually am just doing
what I can to make it more tolerable for the next guy down the line.

I'm sort of an Anti-Entropy guy--a shade tree mechanic in Word's
wilderness. A lover of puzzles with a morbid fascination in the
frequently bizzare circumstances that can only be created with
this product...

And so I continue to lurk in m.p.m.o.w, gleaning what I can.
Because when I learn more, it seems to eventually make a lot of
people around here very happy

On behalf of me and my fellow employees, thanks to all for the
assistance you've provided! Many have slept better knowing that
their bullets were now all from the same font and number list

Thank you, Jeff! Once in a while someone hits the nail on the head! And
you have done it *so* poetically. I had several good belly-laughs, which
are not to be sneezed at -- the world is too short of belly-laughs... ;-)

And I know from previous posts that you're right about "... when I learn
more, it seems to eventually make a lot of people around here very happy".
You have made many valuable contributions. We're happy (well, those
pre-2007 are; well, relatively; well, a bit).

It's group therapy against the proprietors whose product we can't, for
whatever myriad reasons, do without.

All the best,

Clive
=====

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Jeff -

Thanks for the kind words, but that's what these groups are all about

FWIW, you're not alone in your experience. There are quite a few who have
had to pick up the pieces where docs have been forged using a hammer & tongs
rather than using the tools designed for the purpose. Having once been in
the sales end of systems & software I can attest to the resistance of
employers to pay the extra few bucks to train their employees on the use of
same. It was historically a case of taking their bike away, throwing your
kid the keys to the car & saying "OK, drive this instead!"... The main
difference being that the damage done didn't become apparent until further
down the road

Another related circumstance is that most of those docs have most likely
been dredged through various word processing programs along the way as
well... In all likelihood without having been reconstructed, but simply
"patched up" with each transition. I've seen it al too often

Good Luck |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[John McGhie]

Hi Jeff:

Thank you, kind sir. And how the hell do you think *I* got here?

I was just telling one of my workmates today, I was on the team that
selected FrameMaker as the standard technical writing processor for a large
computer manufacturer (very large) way back when.

I cam to this group when it became apparent that Adobe had lost interest and
wasn't going to fix it ...

I originally got to these groups to vent my spleen at Bill Gates. After a
particularly sulphurous outburst one day, I received a lengthy reply. I
have never been so comprehensively put down! The only thing that was not
called into question was the size of my wedding tackle. I have never seen a
flame like it since.

When I looked down the bottom, it was signed "(e-mail address removed)". I think
it really was from him... I wish I had kept it

Those were in the days when WordPerfect ruled and Microsoft Word was
struggling to catch up.

I learned everything I know about Microsoft Windows Help Authoring from the
author of the Help Compiler! I learned most of what I know about Word
Numbering from the designer of the feature.

I was having a quiet libation with him and a few other Mostly Vain People at
Redmond a couple of years ago. There were a few of us standing around him.
I said to him "Stuart, you do realise that apart from those who work for
Microsoft, there are only half a dozen people in the WORLD who understand
Word's numbering, and five of them are standing within arms length of you
now?"

I looked at me, gave a big broad grin and replied "If you had been in the
meeting I have just come from, I think you would believe that there are only
six people in the world who understand Word's numbering, and NONE of them
work for Microsoft!"

True story! He must have won that argument: it's massively better now

Cheers

Thanks again Bob and Clive for all the great info!

I was once able to avoid having to really deal with Word for many
years. Only the most fundamental skills for reading a document
was all I needed.

Then I started working for a U.S. Government contractor...

I realized then that my "ignorance from Word is bliss" condition
of necessity had to change. So I began visiting this group, got a
copy of "Bend Word" and perused several of Shauna's articles. My
company even let me use all the time doing this against my annual
training hours! In about 1-2 weeks of intense revelation (i.e.,
reading "Bend Word" and experimenting with all the suggestions),
I had gotten up to speed to the point that I then had others here
coming to me for help. The help I've received from this group has
benefitted many others in my company.

The problem here (at my place of employment) is that every
document seems to be based on a 10th generation starting point.
You know--templates that aren't templates and cover pages with
logos and introductions that were originated 10 years ago and
have found their way through at least 6 other documents before
arriving on my desk! Many of these have gone through multiple
merges as well. I rarely have the time and opportunity to "make
them mine" as far as cleanup goes, so I usually am just doing
what I can to make it more tolerable for the next guy down the line.

I'm sort of an Anti-Entropy guy--a shade tree mechanic in Word's
wilderness. A lover of puzzles with a morbid fascination in the
frequently bizzare circumstances that can only be created with
this product...

And so I continue to lurk in m.p.m.o.w, gleaning what I can.
Because when I learn more, it seems to eventually make a lot of
people around here very happy

On behalf of me and my fellow employees, thanks to all for the
assistance you've provided! Many have slept better knowing that
their bullets were now all from the same font and number list

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]

 

[Jeff Wiseman]

And I know from previous posts that you're right about "... when I learn
more, it seems to eventually make a lot of people around here very happy".
You have made many valuable contributions. We're happy (well, those
pre-2007 are; well, relatively; well, a bit).

I guess what you are saying is that like most MS product
releases, my contributions have a built-in short term
obsolescence

It's group therapy against the proprietors whose product we can't, for
whatever myriad reasons, do without.

We?!?!

I could probably mostly get away from it if I went back into the
Telecom engineering profession. However, that arena is still more
unstable than a Word document with 6 generations of merged in
track-changes.

Well--I guess that you're right