Why is web design so damned complicated?

[smerf]

Besides the obvious fact that the web is run by a mish-mash of patches
that make it do things it was never intended to do in the first place, why
is the design and deployment of simple websites so damned difficult?

If Santa come out of his drunken stupor while you're around, please tell him
that I want the following.......

I'd like a website designer that.....

- has a widgets panel full of things like calendars, header, column and
footer widgets, scrolling text boxes, bread crumb trail widgets, navigation
widgets, real time date/time widgets, rss feed widgets, a google adsense
widget, rotating ad/image widgets, email form widgets, search widgets (both
site and web), those neat little rounded corner panels in a widget and lots
of 3rd party companies ready to sell me thousands of more widgets. You
should be able to drag and drop columns and widgets on a web page canvas
just like you did with controls on a form in VB.

- I want to be able to see things display in real time on my canvas the way
they will display in the browser ( you know, like the way a word doc
displays in real time as you edit the word document) When I drop a widget
in my web page canvas, I want to see it like the surfers will see it - none
of that placeholder crap.

- I want to be ale to edit anything that I drop on the canvas right where
it is and see my changes in real time on the canvas the way the end surfer
will see it.

- I want to be able to click, drag and select one or more objects on the
canvas and give them a name - automatically grouping them and treating them
as a single entity for CSS editing.

- I want CSS editing of my widgets and such to be dumbed down and simple.
Give me a properties list. Do software developers really expect me to know
all of the properties that could be editable on a particular object? I'm
doing good just knowing where I am most days.

- Along with those property listings, for each one I need drop downs or
color pallets or whatever will help me choose valid values for the property.
Remember, my goal is to publish good looking, standards based web pages -
not to master CSS, XML, XHTML or whatever other God-forsaken alphabetic hell
some group proposes next.

- I want to be able to click to add another main level page or page beneath
the one I am currently working on. When that happens, I expect all of my
navigation (site wide) to be undated automatically for me and I expect the
new page to have things like the header, footer and navigation already added
when I see it on my canvas the first time.

- In short, I want a real WISYWIG web page development tool that lets me
concentrate on what I do best - content development and visual design.

I don't get paid to know all of the inner workings of the web, CSS, ASP,
ASP.Net, PHP or any of that crap. I get paid to deliver great looking,
functional sites on time. And, right now, every tool that I have tried
actually works against me in that goal.

So, sober up Santa! I need a website designer for website
designers....not for programmers.

 

[smerf]

As sad as this is......Blue Voda is the closest thing that I have found to a
true drag and drop WYSIWYG web page editor that I have found.
(http://www.bluevoda.com)

Now, if someone could do this slightly more professionally........(by that I
mean keep the simple interface and add widgets and 3rd party widgets and
such).

It's not that I am opposed to high powered programs....its just that they
are overkill for most small web projects and fall short for most web-based
applications. Honestly, I don't know what they are really much good
for....I just think there is nothing better out there - so people use what
they have.

 

[Brandon]

Good list . . . I don't know if I would fully go with something too "canned"
but I can see that the need exists for something like this.

--
Brandon

==================
Presentations Direct - http://www.presentationsdirect.com

Binding Machines http://www.presentationsdirect.com/binding-machines/gbc-binding-machines.asp
http://www.presentationsdirect.com/laminators/gbc-laminators.asp
Paper Shredders

http://www.presentationsdirect.com/paper-shredders/gbc-paper-shredders.asp
==================

 

[Brandon]

This looks similar to the old Drumbeat web design software which Macromedia
bought out years ago, but apparently never did anything with it.

--
Brandon

==================
Presentations Direct - http://www.presentationsdirect.com

Binding Machines http://www.presentationsdirect.com/binding-machines/gbc-binding-machines.asp
http://www.presentationsdirect.com/laminators/gbc-laminators.asp
Paper Shredders

http://www.presentationsdirect.com/paper-shredders/gbc-paper-shredders.asp
==================

As sad as this is......Blue Voda is the closest thing that I have found to
a true drag and drop WYSIWYG web page editor that I have found.
(http://www.bluevoda.com)

Now, if someone could do this slightly more professionally........(by that
I mean keep the simple interface and add widgets and 3rd party widgets
and such).

It's not that I am opposed to high powered programs....its just that they
are overkill for most small web projects and fall short for most web-based
applications. Honestly, I don't know what they are really much good
for....I just think there is nothing better out there - so people use what
they have.

 

[Mike Koewler]

Why stop here? Why not a Add in DTP capabilities, so I can select the
images, articles and clipart I want, as well as the number of pages,
then press a key and the pages are finished. It also needs an image
editor - one that I don't need to know the difference between R, G, B,
C, M, Y and K. Why I should need to know a thing about levels, dot gain,
contract, transparency. Put the image on the page and make it look
perfect. And make the resolution is perfect so it looks great and loads
immediately.
Let's not forget about sound and movies. I should be able to insert a CD
or tape into the computer, hit a different key and the file is not only
created, but all the noise is removed and the code added so a visitor
doesn't have to worry about anything but sitting back and listening.

The code it creates needs be be such that it works on IE, Mozilla,
Opera, Safari, Avant and all other browsers, plus is 100 percent with
screen readers. It also needs a method to make sure my site in ranked
first in every search engine.

That should take care of most of my needs.

Oh, and it should be either a free download, preferably under 1 meg so
it doesn't take me any time, or a free CD on a magazine cover.

Mike

 

[Rob Giordano \(Crash\)]

And I'd like to be able to work in vector & raster image editing, have it
automatically resize, optimize and rename the file, and automatically file a
copyright and then place it in my web design. I'd also like it to train my
dog to pickup his own damn poop.


| Why stop here? Why not a Add in DTP capabilities, so I can select the
| images, articles and clipart I want, as well as the number of pages,
| then press a key and the pages are finished. It also needs an image
| editor - one that I don't need to know the difference between R, G, B,
| C, M, Y and K. Why I should need to know a thing about levels, dot gain,
| contract, transparency. Put the image on the page and make it look
| perfect. And make the resolution is perfect so it looks great and loads
| immediately.
| Let's not forget about sound and movies. I should be able to insert a CD
| or tape into the computer, hit a different key and the file is not only
| created, but all the noise is removed and the code added so a visitor
| doesn't have to worry about anything but sitting back and listening.
|
| The code it creates needs be be such that it works on IE, Mozilla,
| Opera, Safari, Avant and all other browsers, plus is 100 percent with
| screen readers. It also needs a method to make sure my site in ranked
| first in every search engine.
|
| That should take care of most of my needs.
|
| Oh, and it should be either a free download, preferably under 1 meg so
| it doesn't take me any time, or a free CD on a magazine cover.
|
| Mike
|
| smerf wrote:
| > Besides the obvious fact that the web is run by a mish-mash of
patches
| > that make it do things it was never intended to do in the first place,
why
| > is the design and deployment of simple websites so damned difficult?
| >
| > If Santa come out of his drunken stupor while you're around, please tell
him
| > that I want the following.......
| >
| > I'd like a website designer that.....
| >
| > - has a widgets panel full of things like calendars, header, column and
| > footer widgets, scrolling text boxes, bread crumb trail widgets,
navigation
| > widgets, real time date/time widgets, rss feed widgets, a google adsense
| > widget, rotating ad/image widgets, email form widgets, search widgets
(both
| > site and web), those neat little rounded corner panels in a widget and
lots
| > of 3rd party companies ready to sell me thousands of more widgets. You
| > should be able to drag and drop columns and widgets on a web page canvas
| > just like you did with controls on a form in VB.
| >
| > - I want to be able to see things display in real time on my canvas the
way
| > they will display in the browser ( you know, like the way a word doc
| > displays in real time as you edit the word document) When I drop a
widget
| > in my web page canvas, I want to see it like the surfers will see it -
none
| > of that placeholder crap.
| >
| > - I want to be ale to edit anything that I drop on the canvas right
where
| > it is and see my changes in real time on the canvas the way the end
surfer
| > will see it.
| >
| > - I want to be able to click, drag and select one or more objects on
the
| > canvas and give them a name - automatically grouping them and treating
them
| > as a single entity for CSS editing.
| >
| > - I want CSS editing of my widgets and such to be dumbed down and
simple.
| > Give me a properties list. Do software developers really expect me to
know
| > all of the properties that could be editable on a particular object?
I'm
| > doing good just knowing where I am most days.
| >
| > - Along with those property listings, for each one I need drop downs or
| > color pallets or whatever will help me choose valid values for the
property.
| > Remember, my goal is to publish good looking, standards based web
pages -
| > not to master CSS, XML, XHTML or whatever other God-forsaken alphabetic
hell
| > some group proposes next.
| >
| > - I want to be able to click to add another main level page or page
beneath
| > the one I am currently working on. When that happens, I expect all of
my
| > navigation (site wide) to be undated automatically for me and I expect
the
| > new page to have things like the header, footer and navigation already
added
| > when I see it on my canvas the first time.
| >
| > - In short, I want a real WISYWIG web page development tool that lets
me
| > concentrate on what I do best - content development and visual design.
| >
| > I don't get paid to know all of the inner workings of the web, CSS,
ASP,
| > ASP.Net, PHP or any of that crap. I get paid to deliver great looking,
| > functional sites on time. And, right now, every tool that I have tried
| > actually works against me in that goal.
| >
| > So, sober up Santa! I need a website designer for website
| > designers....not for programmers.
| >

 

[Mike Koewler]

Rob,

Couldn't this be added as javascript to the site - in an automatically
created calendar that also includes a routine to fix dinner, do the
dishes and wash the clothes? I don't want my program to become bloatware!

Mike

 

[Rob Giordano \(Crash\)]

And it must work in flawlessly every browser ever invented or to be
invented, and have the ability to run on diesel, petrol, electric, or
polyunsaturated ghee.





| Rob,
|
| >> I'd also like it to train my dog to pickup his own damn poop. <<
|
| Couldn't this be added as javascript to the site - in an automatically
| created calendar that also includes a routine to fix dinner, do the
| dishes and wash the clothes? I don't want my program to become bloatware!
|
| Mike
|
|
| Rob Giordano (Crash) wrote:
|
| > And I'd like to be able to work in vector & raster image editing, have
it
| > automatically resize, optimize and rename the file, and automatically
file a
| > copyright and then place it in my web design. I'd also like it to train
my
| > dog to pickup his own damn poop.
| >
| >
| > | > | Why stop here? Why not a Add in DTP capabilities, so I can select the
| > | images, articles and clipart I want, as well as the number of pages,
| > | then press a key and the pages are finished. It also needs an image
| > | editor - one that I don't need to know the difference between R, G, B,
| > | C, M, Y and K. Why I should need to know a thing about levels, dot
gain,
| > | contract, transparency. Put the image on the page and make it look
| > | perfect. And make the resolution is perfect so it looks great and
loads
| > | immediately.
| > | Let's not forget about sound and movies. I should be able to insert a
CD
| > | or tape into the computer, hit a different key and the file is not
only
| > | created, but all the noise is removed and the code added so a visitor
| > | doesn't have to worry about anything but sitting back and listening.
| > |
| > | The code it creates needs be be such that it works on IE, Mozilla,
| > | Opera, Safari, Avant and all other browsers, plus is 100 percent with
| > | screen readers. It also needs a method to make sure my site in ranked
| > | first in every search engine.
| > |
| > | That should take care of most of my needs.
| > |
| > | Oh, and it should be either a free download, preferably under 1 meg so
| > | it doesn't take me any time, or a free CD on a magazine cover.
| > |
| > | Mike
| > |
| > | smerf wrote:
| > | > Besides the obvious fact that the web is run by a mish-mash of
| > patches
| > | > that make it do things it was never intended to do in the first
place,
| > why
| > | > is the design and deployment of simple websites so damned difficult?
| > | >
| > | > If Santa come out of his drunken stupor while you're around, please
tell
| > him
| > | > that I want the following.......
| > | >
| > | > I'd like a website designer that.....
| > | >
| > | > - has a widgets panel full of things like calendars, header, column
and
| > | > footer widgets, scrolling text boxes, bread crumb trail widgets,
| > navigation
| > | > widgets, real time date/time widgets, rss feed widgets, a google
adsense
| > | > widget, rotating ad/image widgets, email form widgets, search
widgets
| > (both
| > | > site and web), those neat little rounded corner panels in a widget
and
| > lots
| > | > of 3rd party companies ready to sell me thousands of more widgets.
You
| > | > should be able to drag and drop columns and widgets on a web page
canvas
| > | > just like you did with controls on a form in VB.
| > | >
| > | > - I want to be able to see things display in real time on my canvas
the
| > way
| > | > they will display in the browser ( you know, like the way a word doc
| > | > displays in real time as you edit the word document) When I drop a
| > widget
| > | > in my web page canvas, I want to see it like the surfers will see
it -
| > none
| > | > of that placeholder crap.
| > | >
| > | > - I want to be ale to edit anything that I drop on the canvas right
| > where
| > | > it is and see my changes in real time on the canvas the way the end
| > surfer
| > | > will see it.
| > | >
| > | > - I want to be able to click, drag and select one or more objects
on
| > the
| > | > canvas and give them a name - automatically grouping them and
treating
| > them
| > | > as a single entity for CSS editing.
| > | >
| > | > - I want CSS editing of my widgets and such to be dumbed down and
| > simple.
| > | > Give me a properties list. Do software developers really expect me
to
| > know
| > | > all of the properties that could be editable on a particular object?
| > I'm
| > | > doing good just knowing where I am most days.
| > | >
| > | > - Along with those property listings, for each one I need drop
downs or
| > | > color pallets or whatever will help me choose valid values for the
| > property.
| > | > Remember, my goal is to publish good looking, standards based web
| > pages -
| > | > not to master CSS, XML, XHTML or whatever other God-forsaken
alphabetic
| > hell
| > | > some group proposes next.
| > | >
| > | > - I want to be able to click to add another main level page or page
| > beneath
| > | > the one I am currently working on. When that happens, I expect all
of
| > my
| > | > navigation (site wide) to be undated automatically for me and I
expect
| > the
| > | > new page to have things like the header, footer and navigation
already
| > added
| > | > when I see it on my canvas the first time.
| > | >
| > | > - In short, I want a real WISYWIG web page development tool that
lets
| > me
| > | > concentrate on what I do best - content development and visual
design.
| > | >
| > | > I don't get paid to know all of the inner workings of the web,
CSS,
| > ASP,
| > | > ASP.Net, PHP or any of that crap. I get paid to deliver great
looking,
| > | > functional sites on time. And, right now, every tool that I have
tried
| > | > actually works against me in that goal.
| > | >
| > | > So, sober up Santa! I need a website designer for website
| > | > designers....not for programmers.
| > | >
| >
| >

 

[smerf]

You must be a programmer....a sad, frustrated little coder that has let
deadlines and micro managers suck all the fun out of your job.

But, it's programmers like that that have gotten use farther and farther
away from the concept that PCs and software should make life easier - not
add yet another thing we must master.

Lazy programmers and managers that worship the deadline more than the
customer - they are the reason that software sucks.

 

[smerf]

Don't forget a "Delete Smartass" shortcut key that automatically trashes
posts like yours.

 

[Rob Giordano \(Crash\)]

Actually you are dead wrong. I'm primarily a photographer & graphics
designer and have had no problems learning the rules of the road when it
comes to working with FP, DW, PS, XARA, EW, EGD and a host of other
programs you may need when designing for the web (and dtp as well). There
are plenty of tutes and real books around...try some you might enjoy it.





| You must be a programmer....a sad, frustrated little coder that has let
| deadlines and micro managers suck all the fun out of your job.
|
| But, it's programmers like that that have gotten use farther and farther
| away from the concept that PCs and software should make life easier - not
| add yet another thing we must master.
|
| Lazy programmers and managers that worship the deadline more than the
| customer - they are the reason that software sucks.
|
| --
| Smerf
| "Why don't pet food companies make mouse flavored cat food?"
|
|
| | >
| >
| > And it must work in flawlessly every browser ever invented or to be
| > invented, and have the ability to run on diesel, petrol, electric, or
| > polyunsaturated ghee.
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| > | > | Rob,
| > |
| > | >> I'd also like it to train my dog to pickup his own damn poop. <<
| > |
| > | Couldn't this be added as javascript to the site - in an automatically
| > | created calendar that also includes a routine to fix dinner, do the
| > | dishes and wash the clothes? I don't want my program to become
| > bloatware!
| > |
| > | Mike
| > |
| > |
| > | Rob Giordano (Crash) wrote:
| > |
| > | > And I'd like to be able to work in vector & raster image editing,
have
| > it
| > | > automatically resize, optimize and rename the file, and
automatically
| > file a
| > | > copyright and then place it in my web design. I'd also like it to
| > train
| > my
| > | > dog to pickup his own damn poop.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > | > | > | Why stop here? Why not a Add in DTP capabilities, so I can select
| > the
| > | > | images, articles and clipart I want, as well as the number of
pages,
| > | > | then press a key and the pages are finished. It also needs an
image
| > | > | editor - one that I don't need to know the difference between R,
G,
| > B,
| > | > | C, M, Y and K. Why I should need to know a thing about levels, dot
| > gain,
| > | > | contract, transparency. Put the image on the page and make it look
| > | > | perfect. And make the resolution is perfect so it looks great and
| > loads
| > | > | immediately.
| > | > | Let's not forget about sound and movies. I should be able to
insert
| > a
| > CD
| > | > | or tape into the computer, hit a different key and the file is not
| > only
| > | > | created, but all the noise is removed and the code added so a
| > visitor
| > | > | doesn't have to worry about anything but sitting back and
listening.
| > | > |
| > | > | The code it creates needs be be such that it works on IE, Mozilla,
| > | > | Opera, Safari, Avant and all other browsers, plus is 100 percent
| > with
| > | > | screen readers. It also needs a method to make sure my site in
| > ranked
| > | > | first in every search engine.
| > | > |
| > | > | That should take care of most of my needs.
| > | > |
| > | > | Oh, and it should be either a free download, preferably under 1
meg
| > so
| > | > | it doesn't take me any time, or a free CD on a magazine cover.
| > | > |
| > | > | Mike
| > | > |
| > | > | smerf wrote:
| > | > | > Besides the obvious fact that the web is run by a mish-mash
of
| > | > patches
| > | > | > that make it do things it was never intended to do in the first
| > place,
| > | > why
| > | > | > is the design and deployment of simple websites so damned
| > difficult?
| > | > | >
| > | > | > If Santa come out of his drunken stupor while you're around,
| > please
| > tell
| > | > him
| > | > | > that I want the following.......
| > | > | >
| > | > | > I'd like a website designer that.....
| > | > | >
| > | > | > - has a widgets panel full of things like calendars, header,
| > column
| > and
| > | > | > footer widgets, scrolling text boxes, bread crumb trail widgets,
| > | > navigation
| > | > | > widgets, real time date/time widgets, rss feed widgets, a google
| > adsense
| > | > | > widget, rotating ad/image widgets, email form widgets, search
| > widgets
| > | > (both
| > | > | > site and web), those neat little rounded corner panels in a
widget
| > and
| > | > lots
| > | > | > of 3rd party companies ready to sell me thousands of more
widgets.
| > You
| > | > | > should be able to drag and drop columns and widgets on a web
page
| > canvas
| > | > | > just like you did with controls on a form in VB.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > - I want to be able to see things display in real time on my
| > canvas
| > the
| > | > way
| > | > | > they will display in the browser ( you know, like the way a word
| > doc
| > | > | > displays in real time as you edit the word document) When I
drop
| > a
| > | > widget
| > | > | > in my web page canvas, I want to see it like the surfers will
see
| > it -
| > | > none
| > | > | > of that placeholder crap.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > - I want to be ale to edit anything that I drop on the canvas
| > right
| > | > where
| > | > | > it is and see my changes in real time on the canvas the way the
| > end
| > | > surfer
| > | > | > will see it.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > - I want to be able to click, drag and select one or more
objects
| > on
| > | > the
| > | > | > canvas and give them a name - automatically grouping them and
| > treating
| > | > them
| > | > | > as a single entity for CSS editing.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > - I want CSS editing of my widgets and such to be dumbed down
and
| > | > simple.
| > | > | > Give me a properties list. Do software developers really expect
| > me
| > to
| > | > know
| > | > | > all of the properties that could be editable on a particular
| > object?
| > | > I'm
| > | > | > doing good just knowing where I am most days.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > - Along with those property listings, for each one I need drop
| > downs or
| > | > | > color pallets or whatever will help me choose valid values for
the
| > | > property.
| > | > | > Remember, my goal is to publish good looking, standards based
web
| > | > pages -
| > | > | > not to master CSS, XML, XHTML or whatever other God-forsaken
| > alphabetic
| > | > hell
| > | > | > some group proposes next.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > - I want to be able to click to add another main level page or
| > page
| > | > beneath
| > | > | > the one I am currently working on. When that happens, I expect
| > all
| > of
| > | > my
| > | > | > navigation (site wide) to be undated automatically for me and I
| > expect
| > | > the
| > | > | > new page to have things like the header, footer and navigation
| > already
| > | > added
| > | > | > when I see it on my canvas the first time.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > - In short, I want a real WISYWIG web page development tool
that
| > lets
| > | > me
| > | > | > concentrate on what I do best - content development and visual
| > design.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > I don't get paid to know all of the inner workings of the
web,
| > CSS,
| > | > ASP,
| > | > | > ASP.Net, PHP or any of that crap. I get paid to deliver great
| > looking,
| > | > | > functional sites on time. And, right now, every tool that I
have
| > tried
| > | > | > actually works against me in that goal.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > So, sober up Santa! I need a website designer for website
| > | > | > designers....not for programmers.
| > | > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Mike Koewler]

TEE, HEE, HEE!

Maybe Santa will bring you a life for a Christmas present.

Seriously, it's not our fault you are a boob and don't have a clue -
someone that wants life handed to you on a silver platter. And then
probably complain if you have to wipe the tray.

The software available today to allow people to build a website is
remarkable. No, it doesn't cater to inept morons who cannot ask
questions or cut and paste code, but that's your problem.

After you get out of grade school - which should be in about seven years
unless you flunk a bunch of grades, post back with specific questions.
I'm sure someone will help you.

Mike

 

[Mike Koewler]

venz,

I don't have a clue what EW is so I cannot comment on that.

Presuming you are serious, can you begin to imagine the computing power
it would require to have a full WYSIWYG web editor? Take a simple
i-frame that links to a web page or a javascript that enables the use of
passwords.

Plus, smerf (and maybe you) forget there really are no *followed*
standards when it comes to web browsers. Any decent programmer is going
to preview his pages in IE, Mozilla and Opera, at the minimum. How many
WYSIWYG editors - as suggested, would or could create W3C compliant pages?

I use a program (Serif WebPlus) that has a lot of the "wishes"
described. But how is it supposed to show a RSS feed when not in preview
mode? How is it going to show a counter, countdown, or marquee on the
screen without changing the fragments to code and then displaying it?

Honestly, some of the wishes are as asinine as expecting an animated gif
to work when inserted on a printed page.

Companies are moving toward adding more wizards and scripts that will
work - provided the scripts are hosted on the company's server.

Are you seriously suggesting that a software company should create
wizards that will enable calendars, forums, counters, etc., that will
run under every server regardless of platform AND offer it for sale at a
price that the novice web designer can afford?

In theory, this idea might have some kind of merit, just as - in theory
- all DTP programs ought to do things exactly the same and any other DTP
program should not only open them but be able to make changes. Heck yes,
let's make sure Quark, ID, PagePlus, Publisher, Ventura and every other
program opens on PCs, Macs, Linus and every other OS known to mankind.

Oh, and don't forget, let their total peace and harmony all over the earth.

 

[smerf]

You are right on with the core problem. The problem with almost all current
software is that the developers of the software (who are really very
brilliant at their jobs) have absolutely no clue who their end users are.

And, that's not just my 21 years experience as a lead programmer talking.
(Oh....didn't I mention my experience as a lead programmer on projects for
Bellsouth, Qwest Communications, Porsche, and.....well, who really cares?)

In my years as a lead developer, I have come to understand the frustrations
of both the programmers and the end users. These problems are only
increased by the many levels of management that separate the two. It's like
that game we all played as kids, where you whisper something to someone else
and they in turn to another person and so on until the message has been
passed around the entire room. At the end, it hardly resembles what was
first said.

Programmers need to sit down, side by side, with end users. They need to
develop the features the users request...not something they desire (which is
usually way above the end user's heads anyway). They need to use feature
driven development and more agile methods. They need to be free to do so.

I have had the privilege of working with coders that put me to shame with
their ingenious solutions to coding problems. Unfortunately, they are
seldom capable of seeing the end product from the viewpoint of the end
user - nor are they given the opportunity to do so. (This is what has
doomed Linux to extinction.)

What I long for with web development is not for any lack of ability in
learning CSS or XML or whatever "they" come up with next...rather, I am
frustrated that such a simple task (design and publish a great looking
document to the web) takes such a tremendous amount of time (considering the
same time it would take to develop the same content in print or for a
television infomercial) and requires too much technical knowledge on the
part of designers (who excel in design to a degree that I am in awe of).

Coders (and their managers) have lost sight of what makes great software
great. It isn't that the software can do everything under the sun
(According to Microsoft, 80% of Microsoft Word users use only 20% of it's
features). It isn't that the software is fist to market or that it might be
free even.

To understand what makes software great (and, btw, why Linux is doomed to
fail) just look at Windows itself. Windows was not on the first PCs. But,
Windows, by dumbing down the command line interface of the PC, made Windows
the most popular operating system of all times. It did so, because it made
an OS that other people (non-programmers) could understand.

This dumbing down was followed up with Visual Basic - a programming language
for non-programmers. A brilliant (in retrospect) move that made the dumbed
down OS even more popular. Now, task oriented programmers (as opposed to
professional software developers) could (or at least felt that they could)
develop any software they needed for an OS with an object model written in
terms that they understood (windows, files and folders).

What were windows, files and folders? They were user interfaces, code
libraries (DLLs and such) and directories. But, they were not called by
their "proper" names. They were given real world names that made people
(not programmers) understand *what they did* - not technical names that
described what actually what they were.

Wisely, the documentation (even the Visual Basic documentation) did not go
into great detail as to how the Windows kernel handled threads or processes
and what mutexes and atoms were in the world of programming. Instead,
Visual Basic gave object oriented programmers widgets that they could simply
drag, drop and set a few properties to use - and the public ate it up!

To write a fairly simple VB application, the end users were not required to
understand the way COM components exchanged data. They were not schooled on
the separation of processes in memory or even why that was in their best
interest. Yet, VB programmers created more applications and wrote more code
than any other language in the history of computing and catapulted
Microsoft's Windows to the world dominating position it has today.

Similarly, it is not (or should not be) required of an end user to master
CSS, XML, XHTML, RSS to publish creative, well designed web sites. They do
not (and should not be required) to even know what is behind the curtain.
They should be freed to develop standards based websites simply by dragging,
dropping and setting properties.

This is a failure of the software industry. It's just that simple.

 

[Cheryl D Wise]

How much time have you spent working with print designers?

From my experience working with print (back in the early 80s, there are
limits to print too particularly in the area of costs, ink, halftone, velox,
but those technical limits pale in comparison to the actual design issues
between marketeers and artists/draftsmen) getting something to print isn't
exactly a piece of cake either. Being currently involved with the process of
getting a book written and published I don't see that the process as biome
any simpler -the opposite if anything.

I've only see a little at what goes into even a brief commercial but it is
enough to make me shudder.

End users don't need to become experts in CSS but they do need to have a
small amount of basic knowledge. You won't have to know the technical
differences between bold and strong. The problem is that creating web pages
is not the same as typing a letter. Tools can help you which is why you use
Publisher, InDesign or some other layout program when you want to create a
flyer. There are predefined layouts (just like there are templates in
Expression) if you don't want to know anything about design and theory or
the technical issues.

--
Cheryl D Wise
FrontPage MVP
http://by-expression.com
Online Instructor led training at http://starttoweb.com

 

[Mike Koewler]

Smerf,

Up until about a year ago, I had not touched web design for nearly a
decade. Much had changed from the days when Sausage made it a little
easier to add a link to a graphic. My first recent site (the last one I
did was a combination of Word for Windows probably 95, but it may have
been a 3x iteration and Notepad) I used a DTP program. It did much of
what you request - want a text box? Draw it and add your words in it.
Need an image - drag and drop or import and place. Wanna hyperlink, hit
a shortcut key and pick the page or type in the url. Fairly easy, but
still involved a fair amount of coding if one wanted to use an i-frame
for an off-site link, to design a form, add a counter. Not really unlike
replacing a timing chain on a '82 Corolla. Not something any person off
the street could do, but knew the difference between a socket wrench and
a pair of channel locks, not difficult.

Not too long ago, I was asked to look at a new version of a program. It
comes closer to what you are asking for - I can add forms without having
to understand what a <f> or </f> means, create a picture gallery, add an
RSS reader or generator (Okay, I do have to RTFM to get my around how to
create a feed!), or even a blog or shout box.

But to use many of these widgets, the programmers had to get around a
major stumbling block - how to deal with the variety of servers these
sites might be hosted on. Not every server has php or asp, some don't
even allow access to a cgi-bin. How would a programmer know if the user
had access to a DB, let alone be able to configure it for incoming data?
It's not that the programmers (coders) don't want to make it easier for
users, it's the constraints they face.

Okay, in my case, the company did something unique. It hosts the server
that processes the data. In the case of forms, the info is transmitted
as an e-mail message, not from my server, but from theirs. The blogs,
counters, etc., are hosted on their server with the data stored in their
DBs.

But they are dealing with 10s of thousands of users, not 10s of
millions. Could a large company, with millions of users, do this? And
not only do it, but at no additional charge?

That's why I posit that until such a time as there is only one standard
that every browser runs under and displays the data exactly the same,
and every web host provides exactly the same features in the same way,
providing a true WYSIWYG interface will not be a reality. Anymore than
every DTP program will do every task the same way.

You are right on with the core problem. The problem with almost all current
software is that the developers of the software (who are really very
brilliant at their jobs) have absolutely no clue who their end users are.

I strongly disagree with this as a blanket statement. Do they know how
"every" user will use the software? No way. but through beta testing and
feedback, they get a good feel how a majority of people will. They find
out a majority of people who use forms prefer a redirect to a success
page or similar after submitting it. So they add that after the software
is compiled. They discover lots of users are into W3C standards, so
instead of using text frames that will allow almost anything (but create
sloppy and often bloated code) they introduce HTML compliant text
frames. Thus, the amateur who doesn't really care if the text if
converted to an image but loves the way it displays get his wish while
the designer concerned about JAWS being able to read the page gets his -
without having to parse every line of an HTML page.

Oh well, enough electrons for now. I need to update some pages!

Mike

 

[ToolmakerSteve]

As an add-in programmer, I am busily pondering various task-oriented modules,
that would generate lovely browser-happy CSS + XHTML + Javascript + ASP.NET
C#/VB for you designers.

So I am interested in looking quite carefully at what designers want. I'm
not worried about what code needs to be generated. I can handle that. So
I'm going through your wish list piece by piece.

- has a widgets panel ...thousands of ... You should be able to drag and drop columns and widgets on a web page canvas just like you did with controls on a form in VB.

Analysis of EW: Integration of third-party controls into Toolbox is
incomplete.

I want to be able to see things display in real time on my canvas the way
they will display in the browser.
- I want to be ale to edit anything that I drop on the canvas right where
it is and see my changes in real time on the canvas the way the end surfer
will see it.

I agree. Having thought through work-arounds for the technical issues of
being more thoroughly real-time, my conclusion is that this IS achievable
within reason -- to a MUCH greater degree than EW does. I'll try to
implement this principle in my add-in window, to the degree it can be done
using this version of EW.

- I want to be able to click, drag and select one or more objects on the
canvas and give them a name - automatically grouping them and treating them
as a single entity for CSS editing.
Explain.


- I want CSS editing of my widgets and such to be dumbed down and simple.
Give me a properties list. Along with those property listings, for each one I need drop downs > or color pallets or whatever will help me choose valid values for the property.

The "CSS Properties" pane is such a property list. Click on a given item,
and you get an appropriate drop down or ... to a dialog.

Also, the "New Styles" and "Edit Styles" dialog are forms-based editors for
these properties.

==> Please take a look at those -- is there something you would change?

- I want to be able to click to add another main level page or page beneath
the one I am currently working on. When that happens, I expect all of my
navigation (site wide) to be undated automatically for me and I expect the
new page to have things like the header, footer and navigation already added
when I see it on my canvas the first time.

*** Navigation - the ASP.NET Menu and SiteMapPath may require a few extra
steps, but do they do what you want?

J-moves.com has one approach to navigation - a javascript based one.

I have started designing a CSS-based solution. I will take to heart your
desire that the navigation structure automatically update as you add pages.
[Of course, you will want to type in a short menu item for each page -- page
titles are typically longer than menu items.]


*** New page with header, footer, and navigation - create a Dynamic Web
Template. Then each time you want a new page, do New / Page / From Dynamic
Web Template .. Hmm. Does the job, but is a bit more cumbersome.
Add-in idea: a button on the toolbar that creates a new page from your
"default DWT".

I've now reached the end of your list.

I'm not expecting EW to ever be as fluid as you describe, but I foresee
add-ins getting you much closer on the meat-and-potatoes requests.

-- Steve

 

[Cheryl D Wise]

Select the elements you want and right click on the div element in the HTML
Toolbox and select "wrap". You can then apply a style to the entire div and
use contextual selectors for styling the individual elements as you choose.

A color palette that you can view and save separate from the "add to custom"
in the dropdown box would be a good thing. Like the color palette in
TopStyle.

As far as pages being added automatically to the site navigation, that I do
not want because I don't always organize every menu based on folder
hierarchy.

--
Cheryl D Wise
FrontPage MVP
http://by-expression.com
Online Instructor led training at http://starttoweb.com

- I want to be able to click, drag and select one or more objects on the
canvas and give them a name - automatically grouping them and treating
them
as a single entity for CSS editing.
Explain.


- I want CSS editing of my widgets and such to be dumbed down and
simple.
Give me a properties list. Along with those property listings, for each
one I need drop downs > or color pallets or whatever will help me choose
valid values for the property.

The "CSS Properties" pane is such a property list. Click on a given item,
and you get an appropriate drop down or ... to a dialog.

Also, the "New Styles" and "Edit Styles" dialog are forms-based editors
for
these properties.

==> Please take a look at those -- is there something you would change?

- I want to be able to click to add another main level page or page
beneath
the one I am currently working on. When that happens, I expect all of my
navigation (site wide) to be undated automatically for me and I expect
the
new page to have things like the header, footer and navigation already
added
when I see it on my canvas the first time.

*** Navigation - the ASP.NET Menu and SiteMapPath may require a few extra
steps, but do they do what you want?

J-moves.com has one approach to navigation - a javascript based one.

I have started designing a CSS-based solution. I will take to heart your
desire that the navigation structure automatically update as you add
pages.
[Of course, you will want to type in a short menu item for each page --
page
titles are typically longer than menu items.]


*** New page with header, footer, and navigation - create a Dynamic Web
Template. Then each time you want a new page, do New / Page / From
Dynamic
Web Template .. Hmm. Does the job, but is a bit more cumbersome.
Add-in idea: a button on the toolbar that creates a new page from your
"default DWT".

I've now reached the end of your list.

I'm not expecting EW to ever be as fluid as you describe, but I foresee
add-ins getting you much closer on the meat-and-potatoes requests.

-- Steve

 

[Mike Koewler]

Steve,
your desire that the navigation structure automatically update as you
add pages. <<

That shouldn't be very hard - WebPlus does this now.

Mike

As an add-in programmer, I am busily pondering various task-oriented modules,
that would generate lovely browser-happy CSS + XHTML + Javascript + ASP.NET
C#/VB for you designers.

So I am interested in looking quite carefully at what designers want. I'm
not worried about what code needs to be generated. I can handle that. So
I'm going through your wish list piece by piece.

- has a widgets panel ...thousands of ... You should be able to drag and drop columns and widgets on a web page canvas just like you did with controls on a form in VB.

Analysis of EW: Integration of third-party controls into Toolbox is
incomplete.

I want to be able to see things display in real time on my canvas the way
they will display in the browser.
- I want to be ale to edit anything that I drop on the canvas right where
it is and see my changes in real time on the canvas the way the end surfer
will see it.

I agree. Having thought through work-arounds for the technical issues of
being more thoroughly real-time, my conclusion is that this IS achievable
within reason -- to a MUCH greater degree than EW does. I'll try to
implement this principle in my add-in window, to the degree it can be done
using this version of EW.

- I want to be able to click, drag and select one or more objects on the
canvas and give them a name - automatically grouping them and treating them
as a single entity for CSS editing.

Explain.



- I want CSS editing of my widgets and such to be dumbed down and simple.
Give me a properties list. Along with those property listings, for each one I need drop downs > or color pallets or whatever will help me choose valid values for the property.

The "CSS Properties" pane is such a property list. Click on a given item,
and you get an appropriate drop down or ... to a dialog.

Also, the "New Styles" and "Edit Styles" dialog are forms-based editors for
these properties.

==> Please take a look at those -- is there something you would change?

- I want to be able to click to add another main level page or page beneath
the one I am currently working on. When that happens, I expect all of my
navigation (site wide) to be undated automatically for me and I expect the
new page to have things like the header, footer and navigation already added
when I see it on my canvas the first time.

*** Navigation - the ASP.NET Menu and SiteMapPath may require a few extra
steps, but do they do what you want?

J-moves.com has one approach to navigation - a javascript based one.

I have started designing a CSS-based solution. I will take to heart your
desire that the navigation structure automatically update as you add pages.
[Of course, you will want to type in a short menu item for each page -- page
titles are typically longer than menu items.]


*** New page with header, footer, and navigation - create a Dynamic Web
Template. Then each time you want a new page, do New / Page / From Dynamic
Web Template .. Hmm. Does the job, but is a bit more cumbersome.
Add-in idea: a button on the toolbar that creates a new page from your
"default DWT".

I've now reached the end of your list.

I'm not expecting EW to ever be as fluid as you describe, but I foresee
add-ins getting you much closer on the meat-and-potatoes requests.

-- Steve

 

[smerf]

As an add-in programmer, I am busily pondering various task-oriented
modules,
that would generate lovely browser-happy CSS + XHTML + Javascript +
ASP.NET
C#/VB for you designers.

So I am interested in looking quite carefully at what designers want. I'm
not worried about what code needs to be generated. I can handle that. So
I'm going through your wish list piece by piece.



Analysis of EW: Integration of third-party controls into Toolbox is
incomplete.

Third party addins are key to a program or platform's acceptance over the
competition. Just look at programs like Firefox for examples of what is
possible when the application is opened up.

To me this make economic sense for the company developong the application.
Develop the most needed/used portions of your app (like the 20% of Word
features that people actually use) and leave the seldom used components for
a 3rd party to develop, distribute and support.

I agree. Having thought through work-arounds for the technical issues of
being more thoroughly real-time, my conclusion is that this IS achievable
within reason -- to a MUCH greater degree than EW does. I'll try to
implement this principle in my add-in window, to the degree it can be done
using this version of EW.

That would be nice. One of the things that I hate the most about the .Net
web application design process is the idea of master and content pages is
the arcane way in which they do not show content during development.....only
when you run them do you actually see how they look.

IMHO, it would seem to me that the developers of the ASP.Net stuff would
realize that if their app had to open an external app every time a change is
made to a page (to see if the change was a positive one), they may realize
that something was missing in ASP.Net.

What if you had to actually open a Word document you were editing (or a
photo you were tweaking) after every change to see what effect your change
had on the document or image? That'd be a nightmare - just like ASP.Net web
development.

Explain.

I was thinking of the header and footer regions. If I place a bunch of text
boxes and images (and whatever) on a page and wish to have all of that
repeat in new pages as the header or footer or navigation, it would be nice
to be able to draw everything, then select multiple items and label them as
a header or footer or whatever - and to be able to mark them as core web
page items that are automatically inserted on new pages.

The "CSS Properties" pane is such a property list. Click on a given item,
and you get an appropriate drop down or ... to a dialog.

Also, the "New Styles" and "Edit Styles" dialog are forms-based editors
for
these properties.

==> Please take a look at those -- is there something you would change?

I will look them over and get back to you.......

- I want to be able to click to add another main level page or page
beneath
the one I am currently working on. When that happens, I expect all of my
navigation (site wide) to be undated automatically for me and I expect
the
new page to have things like the header, footer and navigation already
added
when I see it on my canvas the first time.

*** Navigation - the ASP.NET Menu and SiteMapPath may require a few extra
steps, but do they do what you want?

J-moves.com has one approach to navigation - a javascript based one.

I have started designing a CSS-based solution. I will take to heart your
desire that the navigation structure automatically update as you add
pages.
[Of course, you will want to type in a short menu item for each page --
page
titles are typically longer than menu items.]


*** New page with header, footer, and navigation - create a Dynamic Web
Template. Then each time you want a new page, do New / Page / From
Dynamic
Web Template .. Hmm. Does the job, but is a bit more cumbersome.
Add-in idea: a button on the toolbar that creates a new page from your
"default DWT".

I've now reached the end of your list.

I'm not expecting EW to ever be as fluid as you describe, but I foresee
add-ins getting you much closer on the meat-and-potatoes requests.

If EW allows 3rd party addins to really extend it....it may be possible to
reach the widest audience of web developers. They are not programmers, nor
do they desire to be. They are great with visual design and writing
copy....the app should do the rest.

Thanks for your post.....