Is the Professional Look Really Better?

[Mark Parnell]

Previously in microsoft.public.frontpage.client,alt.www.webmaster,

It seems that the more
professional the look, in other words the farther you stray away from shared
borders and templates, the harder it is to make global changes to the site.
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/

but how easy is it to add pages or change
the navigation?

http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Include_one_file_in_another

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Stephen,

Here is a site that was designed and is still managed with FP:
http://www.ourcondo.com

It ASP / database driven. No themes, shared border or FP navigation components and has very little
CSS, however FP Includes where use, as well as ASP SSI (server-side includes).

FP was used as a tool for designing the page layout, manage the hyperlinks between pages, HTML/Code
View was use to coding the pages in ASP/VBScript, as well as publishing the site to a server that
has the FP extensions.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Steve Easton]

You're trying to compare apples and oranges.
The real test is to make both pages appear identical, 1 using mambo and 1 using FP, and then ask for
a comparison.

<imho>
The Mambo version hurts my eyes and the FP version looks like it was made by someone who just
started yesterday.

It's not the program that determines if a site looks professional it's the "keyboard operator
interface" that makes the difference.

I've made better looking pages using Notepad ( and Outlook Express just to prove it could be done )
and dropped them into a web using an ftp window in Internet Explorer.
</imho >

good grief.

--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed............
........................with a computer

 

[Tom Pepper Willett]

IMO, the FP site is very, very busy. Again, concurring with Steve, this is
an issue with the person building the site, not the tools.

The Mambo site is smoother, not as busy, but the colors hurt my eyes. The
site is smoother, because the person building the site properly used the
tools, taking away the busy-ness.

I also agree, it's apples to oranges.

You can use FP, Dreamweaver, Notepad or whatever you want. They key is in
the designer, not the tools.


--
===
Tom "Pepper" Willett
Microsoft MVP - FrontPage
---
About FrontPage 2003:
http://office.microsoft.com/home/office.aspx?assetid=FX01085802
FrontPage 2003 Product Information:
http://www.microsoft.com/office/frontpage/prodinfo/default.mspx
Understanding FrontPage:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/office/understanding/frontpage/
===
| You're trying to compare apples and oranges.
| The real test is to make both pages appear identical, 1 using mambo and 1
using FP, and then ask for
| a comparison.
|
| <imho>
| The Mambo version hurts my eyes and the FP version looks like it was made
by someone who just
| started yesterday.
|
| It's not the program that determines if a site looks professional it's the
"keyboard operator
| interface" that makes the difference.
|
| I've made better looking pages using Notepad ( and Outlook Express just to
prove it could be done )
| and dropped them into a web using an ftp window in Internet Explorer.
| </imho >
|
| good grief.
|
| --
| Steve Easton
| Microsoft MVP FrontPage
| 95isalive
| This site is best viewed............
| .......................with a computer
|
| | > I created two versions of the same basic information. One in Front Page,
one
| > with Mambo. I showed both to a few people and they seem to like the
| > "amateurish" Front Page version over the Mambo one. I got comments like
"the
| > FP one is less threatening" it's easier to navigate," "easier on the
eyes."
| > I'm new to this but it makes me wonder if IN PRACTICE if a very basic
| > website isn't better. My FP site is at
http://www.brokeragenttraining.com
| > the Mambo site is at http://www.brokeragenttraining.com/CMS. I
personally
| > would feel more comfortable doing business with someone with the Mambo
type
| > site but that's not the real life feedback I'm getting so far.
| >
| > --
| > Warmest regards,
| >
| > Stephen Horrillo, Realtor / C.Ht.
| > For MLS & Computer Training: www.BrokerAgentTraining.com
| > Realtors Earn Over 100% at EXIT: www.over100percent.com
|
|

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

The following is what I consider to be a very basic site but does have a "professional" look, not
that it was designed by a "professional" but that it has a professional/corporate type of look.

The site was designed in FP and use FP Includes for maintaining the navigation structure between
pages.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Here is the URL:

http://www.frisco-center.com

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Tina - AffordableHOST, Inc.]

I created two versions of the same basic information. One in Front Page,
one
with Mambo. I showed both to a few people and they seem to like the
"amateurish" Front Page version over the Mambo one. I got comments like
"the
FP one is less threatening" it's easier to navigate," "easier on the
eyes."
I'm new to this but it makes me wonder if IN PRACTICE if a very basic
website isn't better. My FP site is at http://www.brokeragenttraining.com
the Mambo site is at http://www.brokeragenttraining.com/CMS. I personally
would feel more comfortable doing business with someone with the Mambo
type
site but that's not the real life feedback I'm getting so far.

They are both, in my opinion, difficult to look at. The FP one looks very
1997. The Mambo one looks too busy and like every other CMS driven site
I've seen. If I had to choose the lesser of the two evils, I'd choose the
Mambo one.

--Tina

 

[William Tasso]

I created two versions of the same basic information. One in Front Page, one
with Mambo. I showed both to a few people and they seem to like the
"amateurish" Front Page version over the Mambo one.

people? which people? which UAs? which platforms?

I got comments like "the
FP one is less threatening" it's easier to navigate," "easier on the eyes."
I'm new to this but it makes me wonder if IN PRACTICE if a very basic
website isn't better.

horse for courses - take a wander round your local market - check the
spelling on the signs by the fresh produce stall. Obviously written by
an illiterate idiot. Then check the smart car the stall owner drives home.

Point is: the site is for the target audience.

My FP site is at http://www.brokeragenttraining.com
the Mambo site is at http://www.brokeragenttraining.com/CMS. I personally
would feel more comfortable doing business with someone with the Mambo type
site but that's not the real life feedback I'm getting so far.

yep - but what about the target audience. what do /they/ prefer?

btw: relying on either tool to produce your pages seems to leave plenty
work needed to tidy up ...

http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://www.brokeragenttraining.com/
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://www.brokeragenttraining.com/CMS/

In any event, good luck.

 

[Trevor L.]

Thomas,

I realise that I am a newcomer, but I was a computer professional in a
previous life.

I find the frisco-center site really good. It is plain and simple and yet
everything is there. It fits beautifully in my 800*600 screen, too. I guess
that this is where good design comes in. I hope I can pick up some tips on
design as I continue reading this newsgroup and other web sites.

I also like the code behind the design; I can read it and understand it
(generally). There are lots of nested tables, but hey, it works great! Again
this is something I will aspire to.
--
Cheers,
Trevor L.


I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html

 

[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

I understand that FP is just a tool but what makes FP good is the
ease that it takes to make changes/updates to the site. It seems that
the more professional the look, in other words the farther you stray
away from shared borders and templates, the harder it is to make

You are making the mistake of thinking that FrontPage is a theme applicator
tool. My recommendation to you would be to purchase a good book on
FrontPage (I'd recommend my book) and learn how to use it. That would
answer your question quite nicely.

BTW, I've been to your site before and I never considered the look of
it because I wanted what you had on your site. So in my case the
content was king. In looking at it in light of you asking does it
look amateurish, I would have to say it does not have the look that I
would not consider "professional." But yet it practice it gets the
job done and didn't raise any red flags in my mind back when I
visited it. In fact I remember saying to myself that whoever designed
these add-ins must be a genius.

I didn't ask if my site looked amateurish. I was telling you that I
developed my site (the layout of it) in FrontPage and it does not look
amatuerish.

You can pick up some templates (very different from themes) and quite easily
design a very nice site. In my opinion, a Mambo site is as easy to pick out
as a FrontPage themed site and I don't particularly like either.

Thanks for the "genius" thought, but you're being too generous.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

Now offering templates ranging from
affordable standard templates to
powerful e-commerce applications!

 

[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

I didn't even know I had tables in the Mambo site. I just copied and
pasted it frorm the FP site. Why do you say I need more cell padding?

Because the text in your table cells is so close to the cell border that it
looks cluttered and hard to read.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

Now offering templates ranging from
affordable standard templates to
powerful e-commerce applications!

 

[Murray]

That site wasn't created using a FP theme right?

No, it was not.

It looks like you created
your own backround and practically everything else.

That is correct.

All you did was use FP
to upload it to your webspace. Right?

Actually the site was not created with FP, but it could have been. In other
words, there is nothing that I did on that site that I couldn't have done in
FP.

How did FP aid you in creating this
site?

Everything (other than the fact that I didn't use FP). It managed me links.
It created and managed my templates and includes. It gave me a wonderful UI
into the details of the code and the CSS. And it provided a very convenient
vehicle for me to upload the final site and maintain the files on the remote
location. What else could I ask for?

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Trevor,

Thank you! I really enjoy working with nested tables.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Stephen Horrillo]

Stephen:

As a marketing person, my beliefs are that there are lots of theories and
opinions about what works best. Many say Blue lends a feeling of quality
and
trust. Red makes people want to act, now! Green makes people want to spend

money.

I am a firm believer in those colors.

What is the effect when these colors are combined? Do you get all those
desirable properties or is it best to stick to one? If you notice my sig,
I'm a hypnotherapist so I've had some formal training in how color effects
the mind but I've also learned that the same color can have different
effects on different people. Not to mention some people are auditory other's
are kinesthetic (sense of touch), yet most are visual. Which brings up
another topic. Is it EVER desirable to have sounds (background music, voice
narration etc.) on a website?

--
Warmest regards,

Stephen Horrillo, Realtor / C.Ht.
For MLS & Computer Training: www.BrokerAgentTraining.com
Realtors Earn Over 100% at EXIT: www.over100percent.com

 

[Stephen Horrillo]

<imho>
The Mambo version hurts my eyes and the FP version looks like it was made
by someone who just
started yesterday.

I was just using FP as it seems it was designed to be used. I've found
nothing in the help files that would help to improve the appearance of the
site. I also did http://1stresponsecprtraining.com/ for a friend which looks
a little better but no matter what theme I use it comes out looking like it
was designed "by someone who started yesterday." BTW links to several other
of my lame attempts are at www.stephenhorrillo.com. Look, isn't the whole
idea of a program like Front Page to make it so that even a novice can
create a professional looking site? If someone like me who's used a computer
since the days of DOS and trains people for a living can't figure get decent
results, how is the average person who buys MS Office going to figure it
out? It's like it's too complicated for the novice and unneeded by the pro.
Am I missing something here?

It's not the program that determines if a site looks professional it's the
"keyboard operator
interface" that makes the difference.

I keep hearing that but I think it's a cop out. I can't understand why it's
so hard to design themes that aren't dependant on the skill of the operator.
With all due respect, the themes provided are downright lame. If it wasn't
there wouldn't be a whole aftermarket industry (Jimco comes to mind) that
lives off the inadequacies of FP.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to feel I've been ripped off, but IMO I
didn't get what I expected. I created the Mambo site in the same amount of
time, if not less, as the FP one and it seems that the consensus is that the
Mambo looks far better. Is there something I'm missing? Maybe it's me but it
reminds me of some of the discussions I've read in the (pre Ford) Jaguar
newsgroups. It amazed me how they could love a car that any sane person
would consider a total lemon. Their POS was in the shop more than it was on
the road but boy did they love that car. Some even said that not being able
to drive it all the time helped them appreciate the car all the more. "good
grief"



--
Warmest regards,

Stephen Horrillo, Realtor / C.Ht.
For MLS & Computer Training: www.BrokerAgentTraining.com
Realtors Earn Over 100% at EXIT: www.over100percent.com

 

[Stephen Horrillo]

The Mambo site is smoother, not as busy, but the colors hurt my eyes. The

site is smoother, because the person building the site properly used the
tools, taking away the busy-ness.

I also agree, it's apples to oranges.

You can use FP, Dreamweaver, Notepad or whatever you want. They key is in

the designer, not the tools.

But both sites WERE created by the same designer (me). Yet the Mambo one is
being judged as better. Colors not withstanding.

--
Warmest regards,

Stephen Horrillo, Realtor / C.Ht.
For MLS & Computer Training: www.BrokerAgentTraining.com
Realtors Earn Over 100% at EXIT: www.over100percent.com

 

[Stephen Horrillo]

The following is what I consider to be a very basic site but does have a
"professional" look, not
that it was designed by a "professional" but that it has a
professional/corporate type of look.

The site was designed in FP and use FP Includes for maintaining the
navigation structure between
pages.

What site were you referring to?

 

[Stephen Horrillo]

Here is the URL:

http://www.frisco-center.com

Oops. Never mind.

--
Warmest regards,

Stephen Horrillo, Realtor / C.Ht.
For MLS & Computer Training: www.BrokerAgentTraining.com
Realtors Earn Over 100% at EXIT: www.over100percent.com

 

[Stephen Horrillo]

horse for courses - take a wander round your local market - check the
spelling on the signs by the fresh produce stall. Obviously written by
an illiterate idiot. Then check the smart car the stall owner drives
home.

Point is: the site is for the target audience.

Very good point. Thanks. That explains a lot. These comments came from
people who are virtually computer illiterate, but my thinking was "out of
the mouth's of babes."

--
Warmest regards,

Stephen Horrillo, Realtor / C.Ht.
For MLS & Computer Training: www.BrokerAgentTraining.com
Realtors Earn Over 100% at EXIT: www.over100percent.com

 

[Eric Jarvis]

I was just using FP as it seems it was designed to be used. I've found
nothing in the help files that would help to improve the appearance of the
site. I also did http://1stresponsecprtraining.com/ for a friend which looks
a little better but no matter what theme I use it comes out looking like it
was designed "by someone who started yesterday." BTW links to several other
of my lame attempts are at www.stephenhorrillo.com. Look, isn't the whole
idea of a program like Front Page to make it so that even a novice can
create a professional looking site? If someone like me who's used a computer
since the days of DOS and trains people for a living can't figure get decent
results, how is the average person who buys MS Office going to figure it
out? It's like it's too complicated for the novice and unneeded by the pro.
Am I missing something here?

Yes. All the most important aspects of the design process.

FP is a site building tool. A pretty lousy one, but that's besides the
point. It doesn't do ANY design. It's software. You have to ignore all the
hype and all the sales pitches and actually use your own knowledge of how
things actually work.

So first you have to clearly establish what the purpose of the site is and
how that can best be achieved. IN DETAIL. That's before you even think
about content, let alone design. The vast majority of web sites have
already failed before they start simply because this stage of the process
isn't fun. However it makes all the difference.

Then you can start deciding what needs to be on the site, how visitors
will want to navigate around it, and how they'll find it in the first
place. It's not until you've done that bit that you can even start on
anything visual.

When you know the structure you can start on making a template because you
now know what navigation is needed and what people need to find most
easily on each page. It means you don't have to simply slap everything on
to every page. It means you'll be able to do something that isn't
cluttered and too confusing.

At which point using a tool like FP or a CMS will enable you to progress
without learning html.

What you can't get is ANY software that will get adequate results unless
you do all the thinking for it.

It isn't using the software that's complicated or difficult, What's
complicated is all the stuff about your own business and customers that
you've learned over the years. What's difficult is breaking through all
the preconceptions and the hype and actually working out a design process
that has nothing to do with software sales pitches.