Missing Features in Excel 2008!?

[Ardy]

ok first of all... the commercials talk about a wide variety of aspects of both not just "the caliber of the platform." The fact is that they are aimed at the average computer user.

Given that, you cannot argue against the fact that the average computer user uses Office on a regular basis. So I'm sitting here not being able to do half of the shit I could do on my last computer which was a PC, How are you going to tell me that my Toshiba isn't better than MacBook Pro?! When at the end of they day I got more FUNCTIONALITY out of it.

It all comes back to the fact that Microsoft's monopoly over the market creates software issues for Mac that inevitably make it the less functional platform. No matter how powerful or better the platform is.. When you can't do simple things on it.. It defeats the purpose.

 

[Jim Gordon MVP]

Quoting from "Ardy" <Ardy>, in article (e-mail address removed)9absDaxw,

so What this mean for me who JUST bought a mac and assumed that the excel on
mac would be just the same.. i guess it means I made a bad assumption that
Apple was as good as PC.. but its not

I was very concerned that people would get this impression from Microsoft's
actions. I had fears that if the premier software sold for the Mac (which is
Microsoft Office) were substandard that it would negatively affect not only
Microsoft's sales, but Apple's sales as well. I now see that my fears were
not unjustified.

The Mac is fine. Microsoft drew conclusions about what the users of Mac
office want and I think they missed the boat.

Please use this URL to explain to Microsoft that you are disappointed with
their decisions concerning which features of Office to support and which
ones they dropped. Please be specific.
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/suggestions.mspx?product=excel

They need to hear more than just the product failed to meet your
expectations. Please tell them exactly what you expected Microsoft to
deliver and where they fell short.

You may be happier with Microsoft Office 2004 or NeoOffice (free). Certainly
worth trying.

-Jim

--
Jim Gordon
Mac MVP

MVPs are not Microsoft Employees
MVP info

 

[Jim Gordon MVP]

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the ads from Apple are
addressing the Macintosh operating system & Macintosh hardware produced by
Apple compared to the Window operating system, *not* the caliber of software
applications offered by any one developer. Those ads certainly don't even
mention Microsoft Office, let alone make any claims about the equivalency of
that particular suite of products.

I disagree. Apple ads mention Microsoft Office and make no mention of the
fact that the Mac version is different from the PC version.

http://movies.apple.com/movies/us/apple/getamac/selfpity_480x376.mov

-Jim

--
Jim Gordon
Mac MVP

MVPs are not Microsoft Employees
MVP info

 

[CyberTaz]

Hi Jim -

<snip>

I disagree. Apple ads mention Microsoft Office

I stand corrected - in fact there may even be more than just this one that
"mentions" Microsoft Office

and make no mention of the
fact that the Mac version is different from the PC version.

But they make no claim that it is *identical*, either... And if I'm not
mistaken the ad in question is one of the earlier ones in the campaign & ran
*well* before the release of 2008 - possibly before the release of 2007, but
I can't recall for sure. [Back when there *was* a fair degree of parity]

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

 

[Ian]

Maybe Steve Jobs is more prescient and/or close enough to Bill Gates to have seen the writing on the wall. MS has always downgraded the Office component programs for Mac compared to the Windows versions; 2008 just carries that process to greater extremes, perhaps, as this thread suggests, because MS knows that the Mac is a better package than a PC+Windows, so they are trying to undermine it.
Is that why Apple launched the iWork, with a very good spreadsheet program (missing some features, to be sure) and a mighty fine word processor. Not to mention a vastly superior presentation program. All of which easily export to MS's Office progs. So maybe the issue isn't why MS has downgraded Excel for Mac (altho it's valid to ask them and to lobby for re-grading upwards), but why people are still using MS Office on a Mac, when there's alternatives which work so much more sweetly with a Mac.

 

[Ian]

Maybe Steve Jobs is more prescient and/or close enough to Bill Gates to have seen the writing on the wall. MS has always downgraded the Office component programs for Mac compared to the Windows versions; 2008 just carries that process to greater extremes, perhaps, as this thread suggests, because MS knows that the Mac is a better package than a PC+Windows, so they are trying to undermine it.
Is that why Apple launched the iWork, with a very good spreadsheet program (missing some features, to be sure) and a mighty fine word processor. Not to mention a vastly superior presentation program. All of which easily export to MS's Office progs. So maybe the issue isn't why MS has downgraded Excel for Mac (altho it's valid to ask them and to lobby for re-grading upwards), but why people are still using MS Office on a Mac, when there's alternatives which work so much more sweetly with a Mac.

 

[MS]

In previous versions I was able to save and re-use custom chart designs. In Excel 2008 I have not yet found this very useful feature. Is it still possible?

 

[Bill Weylock]

Jim -


First, I know that you all are volunteers and very hard working ones! I know
that you are not in charge of MS policy or responsible for their attention
span.

But these continual suggestions that we lodge ³suggestions² with MS are
making me foam at the mouth.

If MS really cares about user reactions, they surely are not waiting to see
how many people take the trouble to write. They are reading these newsgroups
every three hours and having meetings about the requests and frustrations
they see here.

My field is marketing research, and it is an axiom that for every customer
who takes the trouble to complain, many simply vote with their feet.

Please don¹t interpret this as disrespect, but don¹t you agree that it¹s not
our job to remind them of how to write good software?

Am I missing something here? My honest conclusion is that if they really
care, they will already be working on anything that draws agreement from
more than three or four people. And anything that draws agreement among the
MVPs should be a fire-breathing emergency.

If they don¹t read the newsgroups, having abandoned their responsibilities
to write coherent and comprehensive documentation for the software in the
first place, what are we dealing with here?

Again, this is just my perspective. I may be missing something obvious to
cooler heads.

The differences between 2007 and 2008 are infuriating and unacceptable. It¹s
a story that is going to get told pretty soon if it hasn¹t been already. It
will damage Apple acceptance in the workplace, and it just plain stinks.

I have VMware Fusion on my iMac, and I have begun to use Excel 2007 instead
of 2008. I can¹t be bothered with the failings.

By the way, I have been a very dedicated Mac user since 1987. This is not a
light decision.

 

[Bill Weylock]

Bob -

I respectfully disagree.

Anyone who works with others knows full well that the decision to get a Mac
and begin using it on collaborative projects is controversial, to say the
least.

One powerful argument in favor has become the (sadly invalid) notion that
the workhorse programs in Office are comparable on both platforms. It is a
very very very big deal for anyone who doesn¹t work for himself or within a
Mac-oriented profession.

For Mac Office to be so cynically inferior is something close to a betrayal.
It can easily make someone who has just shelled out money for his first Mac
feel as if he has been had. I am forced to use Windows on my Mac when I
collaborate with others: not because the file formats are incompatible but
because there are neat things possible on the Windows side that I can¹t do
on the Mac side.

Again, I always feel I need to acknowledge that you MVPs are not part of the
problem. But I think someone needs to bring unpleasant heat to bear on the
MacBU to deliver what Mac users have a perfect right to expect when they buy
Office 2008: essential parity.

Unfortunately for all of us, MS is not simply ³one developer.²

By the way, I have been a strong defender of MS for many years because they
always have delivered quality. For the first time, I begin to smell a rat
here. How accidental can it be that 2008 is so inferior to 2007?


Best,


- Bill

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the ads from Apple are
addressing the Macintosh operating system & Macintosh hardware produced by
Apple compared to the Window operating system, *not* the caliber of software
applications offered by any one developer. Those ads certainly don't even
mention Microsoft Office, let alone make any claims about the equivalency of
that particular suite of products.

IOW: The arguable assertion that MS provides a less capable version of
something for one platform than it does for another *doesn't* speak to the
caliber of the platform itself.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac

Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.1
Office 2008/2003 - Windows XP Pro SP2

 

[Ardy]

Thank you Bill for your insightful responses. I am glad someone is other who is a Mac Lover but at the same time is not wiling to make excuses for them. It is obvious that this is a serious issue. I feel that the compatibility issues such as this really hinder my performance.

I think instead of calling it "Office for Mac", it should be called "A lessor, harder to use, insufficient and incomplete Office for Mac".

I have wrote in the suggestion box but I doubt anything would ever happen as a result of that.

and Ian for you to tell me to use iWork is totally ludicrous. There is a million and one things that Office can do that iWork can't. (forget about all the compatibility issue when working with others on same project where they have office - even though apple has made iWork office capable.. it doesn't really perform that well)

 

[Bill Weylock]

You¹re welcome, Ardy.

But I want to make it clear that I am NOT blaming Apple for the shortcomings
of Office. I am just suggesting that it either has become or will become a
problem for Apple in attracting business users.

Honestly, I am still not sure how business IT people are going to relate to
Office 2007 run on PC emulators. Since VMware is primarily an
enterprise-oriented player, I suspect it may be just fine with them. Still
is a shame that someone can¹t be 100% Mac and be 100% competitive.

Thank you Bill for your insightful responses. I am glad someone is other who
is a Mac Lover but at the same time is not wiling to make excuses for them. It
is obvious that this is a serious issue. I feel that the compatibility issues
such as this really hinder my performance.

I think instead of calling it "Office for Mac", it should be called "A lessor,
harder to use, insufficient and incomplete Office for Mac".

I have wrote in the suggestion box but I doubt anything would ever happen as a
result of that.

and Ian for you to tell me to use iWork is totally ludicrous. There is a
million and one things that Office can do that iWork can't. (forget about all
the compatibility issue when working with others on same project where they
have office - even though apple has made iWork office capable.. it doesn't
really perform that well)

Best,

Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.1
Office 2008/2003 - Windows XP Pro SP2

 

[Phillip Jones]

Jim -


First, I know that you all are volunteers and very hard working ones! I
know that you are not in charge of MS policy or responsible for their
attention span.

But these continual suggestions that we lodge “suggestions” with MSare
making me foam at the mouth.

If MS really cares about user reactions, they surely are not waiting to
see how many people take the trouble to write. They are reading these
newsgroups every three hours and having meetings about the requests and
frustrations they see here.

My field is marketing research, and it is an axiom that for every
customer who takes the trouble to complain, many simply vote with their
feet.

Please don’t interpret this as disrespect, but don’t you agree thatit’s
not our job to remind them of how to write good software?

Am I missing something here? My honest conclusion is that if they really
care, they will already be working on anything that draws agreement from
more than three or four people. And anything that draws agreement among
the MVPs should be a fire-breathing emergency.

If they don’t read the newsgroups, having abandoned their
responsibilities to write coherent and comprehensive documentation for
the software in the first place, what are we dealing with here?

Again, this is just my perspective. I may be missing something obvious
to cooler heads.

The differences between 2007 and 2008 are infuriating and unacceptable.
It’s a story that is going to get told pretty soon if it hasn’t been
already. It will damage Apple acceptance in the workplace, and it just
plain stinks.

Hey Bill, that's what Microsoft is Banking on. If they can piss off
enough Macintosh Customers to abandon apple. Then they will gleefully
accept it.

If we don't voice our anger on the Feedback by telling what features we
Miss. Then they will have succeeded in wanting to to do ever since MR
Gates was rebuffed the two Steve's when he wanted to be a part of Apple.


WE should stick to our guns and voice our displeasure. If gives them
headaches to look at all the feedback request. Then we will force them
to rethink. And decided it better to cooperate than make us mad.

I'm yearning for the day when Apple comes out with something so great
that PC types leave in droves and puts MS un the edge of Bankruptcy.
Then they will have to cater to get our business.

I have VMware Fusion on my iMac, and I have begun to use Excel 2007
instead of 2008. I can’t be bothered with the failings.

By the way, I have been a very dedicated Mac user since 1987. This is
not a light decision.


On 2/16/08 7:05 PM, in article
C3DD0EBA.29878%[email protected], "Jim Gordon MVP"

Quoting from "Ardy" <Ardy>, in article
(e-mail address removed)9absDaxw,


I was very concerned that people would get this impression from
Microsoft's
actions. I had fears that if the premier software sold for the Mac
(which is
Microsoft Office) were substandard that it would negatively affect
not only
Microsoft's sales, but Apple's sales as well. I now see that my
fears were
not unjustified.

The Mac is fine. Microsoft drew conclusions about what the users ofMac
office want and I think they missed the boat.

Please use this URL to explain to Microsoft that you are
disappointed with
their decisions concerning which features of Office to support and which
ones they dropped. Please be specific.
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/suggestions.mspx?product=excel

They need to hear more than just the product failed to meet your
expectations. Please tell them exactly what you expected Microsoft to
deliver and where they fell short.

You may be happier with Microsoft Office 2004 or NeoOffice (free).
Certainly
worth trying.

-Jim


Best,

Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.1
Office 2008/2003 - Windows XP Pro SP2

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
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[Bill Weylock]

Excel for Windows is awfully good, though...

And Vista is pretty interesting.

I am thinking it¹s more likely that the migration to Apple is going to be a
little bubble that pops soon. If I¹m gravitating toward Windows after all
these years of dedicated Macaddiction, there is trouble afoot.

Or I¹m simply losing it.

Hey Bill, that's what Microsoft is Banking on. If they can piss off
enough Macintosh Customers to abandon apple. Then they will gleefully
accept it.

If we don't voice our anger on the Feedback by telling what features we
Miss. Then they will have succeeded in wanting to to do ever since MR
Gates was rebuffed the two Steve's when he wanted to be a part of Apple.


WE should stick to our guns and voice our displeasure. If gives them
headaches to look at all the feedback request. Then we will force them
to rethink. And decided it better to cooperate than make us mad.

I'm yearning for the day when Apple comes out with something so great
that PC types leave in droves and puts MS un the edge of Bankruptcy.
Then they will have to cater to get our business.

I have VMware Fusion on my iMac, and I have begun to use Excel 2007
instead of 2008. I can¹t be bothered with the failings.

By the way, I have been a very dedicated Mac user since 1987. This is
not a light decision.


On 2/16/08 7:05 PM, in article
C3DD0EBA.29878%[email protected], "Jim Gordon MVP"

Quoting from "Ardy" <Ardy>, in article
(e-mail address removed)9absDaxw,
on [DATE:

so What this mean for me who JUST bought a mac and assumed that
the excel on
mac would be just the same.. i guess it means I made a bad
assumption that
Apple was as good as PC.. but its not

I was very concerned that people would get this impression from
Microsoft's
actions. I had fears that if the premier software sold for the Mac
(which is
Microsoft Office) were substandard that it would negatively affect
not only
Microsoft's sales, but Apple's sales as well. I now see that my
fears were
not unjustified.

The Mac is fine. Microsoft drew conclusions about what the users of Mac
office want and I think they missed the boat.

Please use this URL to explain to Microsoft that you are
disappointed with
their decisions concerning which features of Office to support and which
ones they dropped. Please be specific.
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/suggestions.mspx?product=excel

They need to hear more than just the product failed to meet your
expectations. Please tell them exactly what you expected Microsoft to
deliver and where they fell short.

You may be happier with Microsoft Office 2004 or NeoOffice (free).
Certainly
worth trying.

-Jim


Best,

Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.1
Office 2008/2003 - Windows XP Pro SP2

Best,

Bill
Imac 2.8Ghz -10.5.1
Office 2008/2003 - Windows XP Pro SP2

 

[Jim Gordon MVP]

Hey Bill, that's what Microsoft is Banking on. If they can piss off
enough Macintosh Customers to abandon apple. Then they will gleefully
accept it.

If we don't voice our anger on the Feedback by telling what features we
Miss. Then they will have succeeded in wanting to to do ever since MR
Gates was rebuffed the two Steve's when he wanted to be a part of Apple.


WE should stick to our guns and voice our displeasure. If gives them
headaches to look at all the feedback request. Then we will force them
to rethink. And decided it better to cooperate than make us mad.

I'm yearning for the day when Apple comes out with something so great
that PC types leave in droves and puts MS un the edge of Bankruptcy.
Then they will have to cater to get our business.

Hi Phillip,

I don't detect any glee from MacBU that they dropped VBA.

MacBU banks on Mac users to buy Mac Office. Each of us who does not purchase
a copy of Office 2008 is a direct loss to MacBU, and they know that very
well. It does them no good if we use Windows Office. I think it would be
inaccurate to say that MacBU wants Mac users to abandon Apple. They
completely depend on Mac users to purchase Mac Office.

I do agree that we should let them know what we expect them to deliver to us
by sending MacBU feedback.

Apple would have to support VBA - all of it - in their applications. Apple's
marketing plan is differentiation. I don't see how VBA fits in there.

Sun Microsystems, on the other hand, has for years been eating away at
Microsoft Office by giving away OpenOffice. And Google is cutting into
Office with Google docs. Either one or a combination of them could
eventually be the downfall of Microsoft Office. VBA has a pretty good start
in OpenOffice right now. And it is cross platform.

MacBU is facing increasing competition from Sun and Google, so they will pay
attention to us.

-Jim

--
Jim Gordon
Mac MVP

MVPs are not Microsoft Employees
MVP info

 

[Phillip Jones]

Hope you are right.

But I always get the feeling that the MacBU is sort of like the
"red-headed" stepchild and are only kept around with the most minimum
budget and as few a developers as possible. because should Apple Fail
and I doubt seriously it will (But Gates and the big-wigs at MS are
crossing their fingers will happen), The MacBU would be shut down within
5 minutes.

That why I earn for apple to come up with something so killer that the
PC users come over in droves. I earn for the day when Apple become
55-60% of the Market. So we can finally get some respect.

Sorry if it looks like I am jaded. But from someone that who's first Mac
was an SE/30 with OS 6.3 and the treatment Apple has received, you
should be able to see where I am coming from.

Hi Phillip,

I don't detect any glee from MacBU that they dropped VBA.

MacBU banks on Mac users to buy Mac Office. Each of us who does not purchase
a copy of Office 2008 is a direct loss to MacBU, and they know that very
well. It does them no good if we use Windows Office. I think it would be
inaccurate to say that MacBU wants Mac users to abandon Apple. They
completely depend on Mac users to purchase Mac Office.

I do agree that we should let them know what we expect them to deliver to us
by sending MacBU feedback.

Apple would have to support VBA - all of it - in their applications. Apple's
marketing plan is differentiation. I don't see how VBA fits in there.

Sun Microsystems, on the other hand, has for years been eating away at
Microsoft Office by giving away OpenOffice. And Google is cutting into
Office with Google docs. Either one or a combination of them could
eventually be the downfall of Microsoft Office. VBA has a pretty good start
in OpenOffice right now. And it is cross platform.

MacBU is facing increasing competition from Sun and Google, so they will pay
attention to us.

-Jim

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
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<http://www.vpea.org>

 

[JE McGimpsey]

But I always get the feeling that the MacBU is sort of like the
"red-headed" stepchild and are only kept around with the most minimum
budget and as few a developers as possible. because should Apple Fail
and I doubt seriously it will (But Gates and the big-wigs at MS are
crossing their fingers will happen), The MacBU would be shut down within
5 minutes.

Phillip - you persist in this dark fantasy with, AFAICT, exactly ZERO
evidence to back it up other than paranoia. I know that it's somewhat
comforting to feel that you're part of a small but righteous group
afflicted by a big baddie, but where's your proof?

MacBU is a profitable business segment (at least for now). It's budget
is based on a combination of projected revenue and maintenance of that
profit margin, just like 90% of other established business lines. If
there were more Mac users, or if Mac users were willing to pay more for
Office, you can bet that the resources would be allocated.

Far from being forced to have "as few a developers as possible", MacBU
has spent a significant fraction of the last few years trying to hire
more competent Mac developers. Guess what - it's hard to find them! The
market's too small! And while I'm sure there are some developers that
wouldn't move to Redmond on a bet, a good salary and benefits usually
wins out.

How well do you know Gates and "the big-wigs" that you have such
insight into their psyches? Have you talked with any of them for even
five minutes?

One thing MS does NOT do is leave money on the table. Shutting MacBU
down would do exactly that. It makes NO sense.

And of course, if Apple were to fail, ALL Mac software developers will
rather quickly shut down. They'd be stupid not to.

Sorry if it looks like I am jaded. But from someone that who's first Mac
was an SE/30 with OS 6.3 and the treatment Apple has received, you
should be able to see where I am coming from.

Just because you're a recent convert is no reason to be jaded!!

The treatment Apple has received has largely been of its own making.
Sheer arrogance combined with failure to adapt to the market.

It was lucky that Microsoft needed a front to avoid further anti-trust
sanctions, and gave that huge infusion of cash to Apple.

It's lucky that MacBU busted their asses to get Office v.X out within a
few months of the launch of OS X. Had that not occurred, Apple likely
would have had a hard time surviving as a computer manufacturer.

 

[PeterA]

I fell for the line "switch over to Mac rather than making the move from Windows XP to Vista"
As a "competent" programmer I did not see a problem in learning a new programming language and rewriting all of my Excel VBA code. However I now find that I can only find referneces to the 2004 version of Applescript for Excel. Further, my code does some pretty intensive math with arrays of floating point, and also uses longs as bit arrays. Reading the documentation I conclude (as the name suggests) that Applescript is indeed a scripting language, lacking the data types and structures of VBA. I now wonder if any conversion may be possible at all. I see this as a much more significant loss of function than just having to rewrite my macros in a different language.

 

[Phillip Jones]

Phillip - you persist in this dark fantasy with, AFAICT, exactly ZERO
evidence to back it up other than paranoia. I know that it's somewhat
comforting to feel that you're part of a small but righteous group
afflicted by a big baddie, but where's your proof?

Come on now you mean to tell me that MS puts as much money and effort in
MacBU as other portions of their company.

The fantasy as you call it. is based my redoing of MacUser MacWorld.
and Mac Addict over the years. plus my personal experience with software
that MS bought and promptly Killed, or Influenced other companies to kill.
Bo I am not some righteous group. All I want is a fair shake. I want
software from any company to work the same as it does on one platform as
it does for another. I don't care of it is UNIX, Linux, Mac or even
windows/DOS. what I'd like to see is be able to sit down in front of a
Computer/ any computer and be able to do this , this and this without
batting an eyelash. Instead You can do this unless your own the
Platform, or you can do that unless you own that platform.

MacBU is a profitable business segment (at least for now). It's budget
is based on a combination of projected revenue and maintenance of that
profit margin, just like 90% of other established business lines. If
there were more Mac users, or if Mac users were willing to pay more for
Office, you can bet that the resources would be allocated.

Far from being forced to have "as few a developers as possible", MacBU
has spent a significant fraction of the last few years trying to hire
more competent Mac developers. Guess what - it's hard to find them! The
market's too small! And while I'm sure there are some developers that
wouldn't move to Redmond on a bet, a good salary and benefits usually
wins out.

How well do you know Gates and "the big-wigs" that you have such
insight into their psyches? Have you talked with any of them for even
five minutes?

One thing MS does NOT do is leave money on the table. Shutting MacBU
down would do exactly that. It makes NO sense.

And of course, if Apple were to fail, ALL Mac software developers will
rather quickly shut down. They'd be stupid not to.


Just because you're a recent convert is no reason to be jaded!!

Recent Convert?. I don't consider 1986 to be a recent convert. ;-)

The treatment Apple has received has largely been of its own making.
Sheer arrogance combined with failure to adapt to the market.

That's typical of MS defenders.

You know for a Fact that the use of a Mouse and use of a desktop type
metaphor was originated at Apple. I realize the very early works was
done at Xerox Parc project but Xerox didn't want it and didn't step in
the way, when Apple came out with their own design *based* on that research.

Then MS out right stole the design and because Apple wasn't big enough
it was unable to pay enough to win a patent suite.

It was lucky that Microsoft needed a front to avoid further anti-trust
sanctions, and gave that huge infusion of cash to Apple.

Yes it was lucky that MS' Lawyers did talk some reason , and put the
fear of god into them. Because had the not done so, and not helped Apple
to stay alive they would have met a worse fate than AT&T did back when
the old Ma bell system was broken up.

It's lucky that MacBU busted their asses to get Office v.X out within a
few months of the launch of OS X. Had that not occurred, Apple likely
would have had a hard time surviving as a computer manufacturer.

It was great that the MacBu did get out X of course I was able to use
2001 on until 2004 came out. MS and other software people more than
adequate warning OSX was Coming my goodness version of Ox.1 were out a
year before they settled on X.1.5 I was not an early adopter I stuck
with OS 9.2.2 until 10.2.3 came out. and even then for a while I
switched back and forth.

If you have to keep up with the times new designs, and system have to
flow as well.

My goodness PC's can still run and some people still do DOS programs.

At some point you need to say we just can't keep the same thing for 30
or forty years we have got to change and be innovative.

Have to resign myself to the US of MS products because for Macs even
though there are a lot of open source wannabes, MS is really still the
only game in town.

So I have to deal with but I don't have to like it. Its kind of like
going to the DR at some point you have to go to them whether you want to
or not.

--
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Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
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[JE McGimpsey]

Come on now you mean to tell me that MS puts as much money and effort in
MacBU as other portions of their company.

I don't have any data, but I strongly suspect that the investment
criteria are the same for MacBU as they are for other product groups, so
that the money is "as much" *relative to sales*.

Do you have any data that says otherwise?

All I want is a fair shake. I want software from any company to work
the same as it does on one platform as it does for another.

Including QuickTime on Windows machines?

Are you suggesting that if MacBU has a better idea that's Mac-specific
(as they nearly always do), they shouldn't implement it because it
wouldn't work the same as on the WinOffice side?

what I'd like to see is be able to sit down in front of a
Computer/ any computer and be able to do this , this and this without
batting an eyelash. Instead You can do this unless your own the
Platform, or you can do that unless you own that platform.

Apple would have gone out of business long ago if the market felt as you
say you do.

Recent Convert?. I don't consider 1986 to be a recent convert. ;-)

Hmmm... the SE/30 wasn't introduced until 1989. Nor was OS 6.0.3 (there
wasn't a OS 6.3). But I meant my "recent convert" humorously

That's typical of MS defenders.

And that's a typically ad hominem rejoinder!

I don't typically defend MS (tho' I'll admit to being partial to MacBU),
but I also can't stand conspiracy theories promulgated without evidence.

You know for a Fact that the use of a Mouse and use of a desktop type
metaphor was originated at Apple. I realize the very early works was
done at Xerox Parc project but Xerox didn't want it and didn't step in
the way, when Apple came out with their own design *based* on that research.

Well, Xerox did *delay* (fatally, for their suit), but they *did* sue
Apple for infringing its GUI copyrights.

Then MS out right stole the design

Patent revisionism! Apple *licensed* nearly all the GUI elements to MS
for Windows 1.0! Apple only decided it owned the copyrights when Windows
2.0 came out.

and because Apple wasn't big enough
it was unable to pay enough to win a patent suite.

It lost the case when it made a bad tactical decision so that the
*copyright* issue wasn't addressed. There was never a patent suit.

It was great that the MacBu did get out X of course I was able to use
2001 on until 2004 came out.

But no corporate users could. Your needs are very basic, Phillip.

And if your theories held any water, MS would have simply shut down
production of v.X until Apple's OS X business withered and died.
Instead, they saw a *synergistic* opportunity to make a profit.

So I have to deal with but I don't have to like it. Its kind of like
going to the DR at some point you have to go to them whether you want to
or not.

Oh, I don't expect you'll ever like change...!! <g>

OTOH, I haven't been to a doctor for about 6 years, and don't intend to
any time soon, so what do I know?

 

[Jim Gordon MVP]

Hope you are right.

But I always get the feeling that the MacBU is sort of like the
"red-headed" stepchild and are only kept around with the most minimum
budget and as few a developers as possible. because should Apple Fail
and I doubt seriously it will (But Gates and the big-wigs at MS are
crossing their fingers will happen), The MacBU would be shut down within
5 minutes.

That why I earn for apple to come up with something so killer that the
PC users come over in droves. I earn for the day when Apple become
55-60% of the Market. So we can finally get some respect.

Sorry if it looks like I am jaded. But from someone that who's first Mac
was an SE/30 with OS 6.3 and the treatment Apple has received, you
should be able to see where I am coming from.

An economist would probably explain the Apple/Microsoft situation with some
graphs with curves on them that show that as long as a niche company sticks
with their niche the larger near-monopoly will let them exist indefinitely.

But if the niche player attempts to overtake the near-monopoly it is a high
risk endeavor for the nice player. There are exceptions, but usually the
niche player loses everything. Apple is not about high risk.

It is absolutely certain that Apple's market share has grown rapidly the
past few years. No longer is it less than 3% of the market. In laptops they
are capturing more than 40% market share in places where they barely made a
showing a few years ago. Here's one analysis:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071018-dell-staunches-the-market-shar
e-bleeding-while-apple-sees-big-growth.html

Gates & co. does not want Apple consumers to bolt to Google, Apple or Sun
for Office applications. Virtualization is all the rage in the PC camp right
now, so to them it is logical we would install VMware or Parallels and be
happy campers, a copy of Windows, and Office 2007. So far they don't
completely get that many of us want to use a native Mac application that has
equivalent functionality and retains compatibility with Windows office.

That doesn't preclude a different UI and additional support for Mac only
features, but it does mean full support for VBA.

So what about Active-X. Do we need that, too?

-Jim

--
Jim Gordon
Mac MVP

MVPs are not Microsoft Employees
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