PROBLEM: 12.1 version of Word 2008 will not open WinWord .doc files?

S

Steve Hodgson

Hi Steve:

If you have a "message for Microsoft", I suggest that you use Help>Send
Feedback to send it in to them. The chance that Microsoft staff will read
it in here is not reliably distinguishable from 0.

I am certainly not making excuses for Microsoft. I am well known for
flaming their little behinds as often as needed (they would say far more
often than needed...). But I am struggling to understand why anyone would
think that this particular decision needs any excusing.

If you had some exposure to the computer security field, you would probably
understand that it's not such a smart idea to tell the bad guys what you are
going to do in advance. Actually, that's kinda dumb :)

The only new information that has emerged is the discovery that some
applications have been setting the file type or creator code wrongly,
presumably because their coders have been either sloppy or too lazy to
think.

Effectively, they are misaddressing postal articles, and relying on the fact
that the Post Office will get the package to the right place by
clairvoyance. And now the post office has started reading the address label
and dropping packages for a non-existent address in the dead letter office,
they are complaining :)

But if we sit back and take a realistic look at this for a moment, we can
see that in this case, what Microsoft has done simply doesn't matter. A
work-practice that has always been a bit risky is now disabled, for a series
of file types that have not been used for more than a DECADE. Why would we
care? Why would ANYONE care?

Your users already know the answer to this: it's been part of their standard
operating practice for years. For many years we have been telling users
"Word won't open some kinds of files on a double click. If you encounter
one of those kinds of files, use File>Open." As a competent Sys Admin, you
posted this on your Help Desk help page around 20 years ago. You did do
that, right?

The Mac is becoming sufficiently popular now that there are enough of them
out there to make it worth while for the bad guys to have a go. So Mac
software manufacturers (and Apple...) now have to apply a little more
case-hardening to their code than before. No biggie. It's a testament to
the success of the Mac in the marketplace.

No data has been lost. No users have been inconvenienced -- they can open
their files just as easily using an alternative method. No specifications
have been reduced. No user functionality is removed. No impact -- at all
-- other than to slow down the bad guys.

Let's move on, shall we?

Too many Steves...

I think you’re right this debate has reached a point where it’s not
going to be solved in m.p.m.o.w. This forum has established a
workaround for the problem and now at least some users understand why
they can no longer open Word files using the tried and trusted
mechanism of double-clicking in the Finder. I suspect there are quite a
few more users elsewhere who are still wondering what the hell is going
on in the absence of a public statement that this point release will
potentially introduce a limitation. I’ve read
<http://support.microsoft.com/kb/952331/en-us> and MS08-026 but
couldn’t see it there but may have misunderstood it or perhaps it’s
elsewhere.

I find the postal service analogy interesting but I would amend it
slightly. It seems the postal service is now only delivering letters
and parcels if the post code is 100% accurate. If this ain’t the case
it won’t try to find you by reading the rest of the address it just
dumps your parcel and walks away :eek:)

Setting aside the issue of how a mis-typed file got onto your system,
Word now sees a file that it now considers ‘wrong’ so refuses to open
it despite it apparently being a Word document, albeit a very old one.
Where is the end-user feedback to indicate why the file can no longer
be opened? why is there no message in 12.1.0 to indicate that such old
versions of Word files are now considered to be a threat and therefore
should only be opened from within Word using ⌘-O. If I try to open
non-Word documents in Word 2008 it tells me this is ‘The document might
be in use or might not be a valid Word document’ but in the case of
these Word documents there is no such warning.

Thanks for all the help to understand the problem.
--
Cheers,

Steve

The reply-to email address is a spam trap.
Email steve 'at' shodgson 'dot' org 'dot' uk
 
J

John McGhie

Hi Steve Hodson:

(Can't have too many Steve's, they're quality people!!)

I find the postal service analogy interesting but I would amend it
slightly. It seems the postal service is now only delivering letters
and parcels if the post code is 100% accurate. If this ain’t the case
it won’t try to find you by reading the rest of the address it just
dumps your parcel and walks away :eek:)

Yes, that's better...
Setting aside the issue of how a mis-typed file got onto your system,
Word now sees a file that it now considers ‘wrong’ so refuses to open
it despite it apparently being a Word document, albeit a very old one.

Actually, it's not "Word" that is doing this. My understanding is that the
change has been made in the Launch Services Database for the File
Type/Creator Code pair concerned.

Word is no longer advertising that it can handle those codes, so Apple OS X
doesn't know where to send the double-clicks. Ideally, OS X would issue an
error message like Windows does.

You know: that irritating one I see at work all the time about "Windows
cannot find a program to open this file, do you want to use the Internet to
find one, or would you like to look yourself?"

Which really means "The Network Nazis do not want you wasting time and
bandwidth on YouTube, and have disabled the player software, now get back to
work!!"
Where is the end-user feedback to indicate why the file can no longer
be opened?

That would be a job for Apple. In the case of the deprecated file types,
Word is never aware that anything has been clicked.
why is there no message in 12.1.0 to indicate that such old
versions of Word files are now considered to be a threat and therefore
should only be opened from within Word using ⌘-O.

I understand there will be a Help topic on the subject, but they're still
writing it. Microsoft believed that nobody would ever strike this error
(except the bad guys...). They were unaware that some applications out
there are still marking downloads with the old file type!
If I try to open
non-Word documents in Word 2008 it tells me this is ‘The document might
be in use or might not be a valid Word document’ but in the case of
these Word documents there is no such warning.

Yes, you WILL get a warning if Word is ever handed the file. The reason you
do not get an error is that Word is never passed the file by OS X. As some
people have discovered, if you fiddle with the Launch Services Database (and
provided you don't wreck your system doing that... :)) you can send these
files back to Word.

If you do, you would just be giving the bad guys a free kick at your system
with whatever they might want to try on. Which means you should then run
the whole security catastrophe software suite on the Mac -- antivirus,
anti-spyware, bi-directional firewall, least-privileged user login, and yada
yada yada...

I really think telling users "if it won't open on a double-click, use
File>Open..." is a hell of a lot less work and irritation :)

Cheers

--

Don't wait for your answer, click here: http://www.word.mvps.org/

Please reply in the group. Please do NOT email me unless I ask you to.

John McGhie, Microsoft MVP, Word and Word:Mac
Nhulunbuy, NT, Australia. mailto:[email protected]
 
J

JE McGimpsey

Steve Maser said:
If that's truly the case -- that file types will willy-nilly be
disabled with *zero* advanced notice

No file types have been disabled. They can still be opened via
File/Open. Only the *method* of opening files that indicate that they're
of a type that hasn't been created by an MS application in the last 6+
years, has been disabled.
-- then there needs to be a written, public KB article indicating
this

I agree - IMO it ought to say "we botched this fix in the initial
release, but it's fixed now. Use File/Open."
and/or a free tool that will
convert file types accordingly and enough pre-testing/announcing needed
to indicate what web browsers/e-mail programs will be affected by this.

Get it through your head - for users it doesn't much matter which web
browsers/e-mail programs are used - they're not "affected by this" -
they're the perpetrators!

Even if you know which ones they are and avoid them, if anyone else
touches the files with those apps anywhere along their travel to your
machine, you'll see the problem.
 
S

Steve Maser

John McGhie said:
I understand there will be a Help topic on the subject, but they're still
writing it. Microsoft believed that nobody would ever strike this error
(except the bad guys...). They were unaware that some applications out
there are still marking downloads with the old file type!


(First "Steve" here again...)

Sure. I can buy Pegasus/Eudora/MailSmith, etc -- as "fringe" e-mail
programs slipping under the radar for testing. I'll give them that.


But Firefox 2.x? That's as common as dishwater around the world these
days... (I would imagine Thunderbird 2.x has a similar problem?
Somebody could chime in here.) I'm sure there are people that use
Entourage, but I only hear that people use that who *have* to have some
kind of Exchange compatibility.


No reason *Firefox* shouldn't have been tested, nor should they have
been "unaware" of that. If that's truly the case, they need to
consider expanding their test base.

What does MS expect? That IT admins push Firefox 3.0 (even RC1) and
Thunderbird 3.0 *alpha 1* out to their end users to resolve the
problem? (And FF 3.0, *does* set file types to "blank"...)


Note, that MS did *not* decide to depreciate the old file formats in
the Office 2004 11.4.2 update -- those still work.

If MS is going to break everything everywhere, they should at least be
consistent...

- Steve
 
S

Steve Maser

JE said:
Get it through your head - for users it doesn't much matter which web
browsers/e-mail programs are used - they're not "affected by this" -
they're the perpetrators!

Even if you know which ones they are and avoid them, if anyone else
touches the files with those apps anywhere along their travel to your
machine, you'll see the problem.


So, then -- what solution are you offering? Complete retraining of
their customer base because of an automatic office *service pack*?

Really? A service pack/update for a Word Processor should not be
considered a reference X.0 release in terms of what affect it has on a
end-user.

- Steve
 
D

Daiya Mitchell

Steve said:
But Firefox 2.x? That's as common as dishwater around the world these
days... (I would imagine Thunderbird 2.x has a similar problem?
Somebody could chime in here.)

I couldn't find a .doc received in Thunderbird 2.0.0.12, but an .xlsx
file came up with a blank type/creator. An older .xls file came up
XLS/XCEL, possibly old enough to have been downloaded before my last TB
update. You can de-spam my address and send me a test .doc, if you
want, and I'll let you know.

I'm sure there are people that use
Entourage, but I only hear that people use that who *have* to have some
kind of Exchange compatibility.

Nope. It's my main email/cal app, and I never touch exchange--I prefer
the one-app approach. There are enough non-exchange questions on the
Entourage ng to show that it's a healthy portion of the user base.
No reason *Firefox* shouldn't have been tested, nor should they have
been "unaware" of that. If that's truly the case, they need to
consider expanding their test base.

Agreed. Except it's not a matter of just expansion, so much as
redirection---people who are interested in beta testing for Office are
almost by definition people who use many pieces of it, no? and it's more
efficient for MS to have it that way. Does Apple have grandmas who just
use iPhoto beta-testing iLife? And I suspect many beta testers are not
the type of people to use webmail access consistently enough to hit this
problem via Firefox.

Daiya
 
P

Phillip Jones

To all the MVP's

I never have sent a Word Doc or Excel xls (add x on end for 2008) directly.

I always if I am sending to a Mac persons I send as a .sitx compressed
file (if the have stuffit expander. Or I use OSX finder command to make
a zip archive of the file. (Unlike PKZip it does not compress the file
just encodes it as a zip file and send

For my PC buddies I always send as a zip file.

If you send that way doesn't that prevent this problem?

Daiya said:
Best you'll get for now:
http://tinyurl.com/6qfyrt
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/help.m...rget=0b9aa757-50ab-443b-8b0e-3a50ece1d5451033


I suspect something more is still coming, that's a fairly vague
placeholder.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
D

Daiya Mitchell

Possibly but not necessarily, Phillip. It should prevent the file type
from getting garbled on that particular transfer (not quite able to test
this). Depending on the history of the file, the file type could have
been messed up at some other point in its life. Although, since some
programs set the file type to blank, that would also undo any earlier
errors.

But Mac users sending documents doesn't seem to be the problem anyhow.
 
D

Daiya Mitchell

Daiya said:
I couldn't find a .doc received in Thunderbird 2.0.0.12, but an .xlsx
file came up with a blank type/creator. An older .xls file came up
XLS/XCEL, possibly old enough to have been downloaded before my last
TB update.

FYI: Sent myself a .doc, created as W8BN, sent via Entourage, downloaded
in Thunderbird 2.0.012, file type now set to WDBN.
 
P

Phillip Jones

Try this text Create a document on a PC and convert it to a zip file.
now send it to Mac computer and use Thunderbird or Firefox to download
it But don't have either to post process the document just save it to a
downloads folder.

Now open that folder and double click on the zip file. then double click
on the resultant file and see whether it opens the file.

Or end me one using Office2007 as an docx, and zip it. send to me I'll
open it in 2008 and see What happens. If it works then the files are
getting mangled by mis configured servers in between.

DOCX is so new there are probably many servers out in the world don't
know it exist yet.

Daiya said:
FYI: Sent myself a .doc, created as W8BN, sent via Entourage, downloaded
in Thunderbird 2.0.012, file type now set to WDBN.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |[email protected], ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:p[email protected]

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>

<http://www.vpea.org>
 
J

JE McGimpsey

Steve Maser said:
So, then -- what solution are you offering? Complete retraining of
their customer base because of an automatic office *service pack*?

Gee, training in File/Open doesn't seem that egregious to me. I support
over 1500 desks, and this is a *really* minor problem for the users I've
contacted.

If this constitutes "complete retraining" for your user base, I can
understand your frustration and you have my deepest sympathy.
Really? A service pack/update for a Word Processor should not be
considered a reference X.0 release in terms of what affect it has on a
end-user.

Perhaps - they screwed up by not including it in the initial 12.0
release. But I don't agree with your assertion that SP's shouldn't
contain major fixes. At all.

Now they've fixed whatever problem existed in the 12.0 version. Are you
seriously arguing that they should have compounded the screw-up by
leaving a vulnerability open until the next full version?? Really???

That would just be incredibly stupid.

Especially when THEIR software doesn't cause the problem.

Could they have handled it better? Absolutely, and a KB article will
probably be coming out real soon now. Which will still be pretty lame,
but at least it will be documentation.

Frankly, I don't for a minute think that your objection has much to do
with the change being released in a service pack - service packs nearly
ALWAYS contain security and stability fixes that cause minor hiccups in
how the software interacts with the OS. This one is a bigger one than
most for *some* users.

However, I suspect you'd be ranting just as much if they'd done it right
and it had started happening in the initial roll-out. That's pure
speculation, though. I could be wrong.
 
S

Steve Maser

JE said:
However, I suspect you'd be ranting just as much if they'd done it right
and it had started happening in the initial roll-out. That's pure
speculation, though. I could be wrong.


Nope.

Because as an admin, I can control who could have *access* to Office
2008. Office 2008 was held back here (for example) until the 12.0.1
update came out because Excel 2008 (12.0) was nowhere near stable
enough to use for my users (including myself.)


What I can't control (an entirely different thread) is who could
install a service pack on a pre-existing installation.

An entirely-and-utter-completely different can of worms.

Adjustments could have been made/discovered/implemented *before*
allowing Office 2008 to my user base (ie, "before we roll out the new
office, we must give you a new e-mail program and web browser and then
modify the file types on all your documents for the following
reasons...")


The 12.1 service pack is not "Office 13".

- Steve
 
S

sb on mac

I'm having the same problem. Before the update I didn't have any problems,
and now that I've updated, I cannot open .doc files that were created on
Windows computers. Word itself opens, but it creates a blank document--which
doesn't really do me any good. I don't think I should have to attempt fifty
different workarounds (though i have) in order to open a simple file-- it
should just work. In case you need to know, I am running a macbook w/ the
leopard os.
 
S

Scott Boettcher

You don't support many people do you "JE"?
I do.
Many of whom may or may not be lazy/irrational or just don't like changing
work-flow.
It's not up to THEM or ME to work-around a bad update.
It's up to Microsoft to fix what they broke.

Until then, please don't waste space here with this kind of drivel.

Scott
 
S

Scott Boettcher

Agreed - this is asinine!
Who makes up this crap?
Is this MS' MO?
I surely hope someone is pulling **** outta their backside on this answer -
this is completely unacceptable.

Scott
 
S

Scott Boettcher

Please note that it says "ISSUE" not "we designed it this way"
Where are you folks getting the nerve to say it's security, or designed this
way when the official site calls it an issue and posts a work-around?

For those that see this rant as stupid, I suggest you don't support users -
high-end users - in a large corporate environment.
I do.
This kind of this is a PITA for us.
 
J

JE McGimpsey

sb on mac said:
I don't think I should have to attempt fifty
different workarounds

Try one: File/Open. If desired, make a minor edit. Delete the edits.
Save.

Done.
 
C

CyberTaz

The message to which you attached your reply goes back to the very beginning
of this [exhaustive] thread, which has also become fragmented.

In the messages posted since you'll find that you can, in deed, open the
files and that there are no "workarounds" involved... Take a look at JE's
reply to your message & you'll find that the only "workaround" involved is
little more than to open the file using the most fundamental & basic
technique for doing so.

Further, it has nothing to do with Windows computers specifically. It's a
matter of how the file has been handled by certain types of software which
have decoded the attachments inappropriately and could have occurred anytime
during the life of the file.

Regards |:>)
Bob Jones
[MVP] Office:Mac



On 5/19/08 1:27 PM, in article
(e-mail address removed), "sb on mac" <sb on
 

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