Is the Professional Look Really Better?

[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

You don't consider that Safari is a major browser? Then you have
alienated all Mac OSX users. The rendering engine it uses is based on
that of Konqueror and I am making the assumption that because it use
the same engine it also won't work in Safari (I don't currently have a
running version of Safari to test it in hence the assumption).

FrontPage isn't supported on a Mac, nor on Linux. This ain't rocket
science!

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

Now offering templates ranging from
affordable standard templates to
powerful e-commerce applications!

 

[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

Tom: There is no reasoning or arguing with trolls like this. They
want everyone to get on the defensive.

It's what they do.

But it does provide for some fun on a Friday afternoon.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

Now offering templates ranging from
affordable standard templates to
powerful e-commerce applications!

 

[Chris Hope]

I can only assume that you didn't read the pompous posts from Grey.

Actually after a further look through your site it looks like you're
selling someone else's templates? They all seem to work fairly well in
the browser I use (Konqueror) and generally that means they're pretty
good in most browsers.

 

[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

I'm a bit confused how supplying some info that the menus don't work
in a particular browser and then asking a question about Safari makes
me a troll. It may well be that Jim doesn't care about users of
browsers other than IE or Mozilla. So be it. I didn't consider that
his site would only appeal to IE & Mozilla users on Windows because
it's a site oriented towards FP. My post may not have been all that
well thought out but it was certainly not a troll.

Do some looking into user agent sniffing scripts. The Grey dude is just
ignorant in their use. If you see a script that sniffs for IE and Mozilla
in the user agent string, that doesn't mean that you are only supporting IE
or Mozilla.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

Now offering templates ranging from
affordable standard templates to
powerful e-commerce applications!

 

[Chris Hope]

FrontPage isn't supported on a Mac, nor on Linux. This ain't rocket
science!

Read my post further down I was also assuming your templates would
have the same problem but they seem to work fairly well in other
browsers.

 

[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

Be careful how you are editing the post, as I have not made any such
comments, as below would indicate.

I knew you would speak up.

I don't think you'll ever see Tom make any jabs in this group. I'm speaking
of Tom Rowe just to clarify.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

Now offering templates ranging from
affordable standard templates to
powerful e-commerce applications!

 

[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

Actually after a further look through your site it looks like you're
selling someone else's templates? They all seem to work fairly well in
the browser I use (Konqueror) and generally that means they're pretty
good in most browsers.

Yeah, I am a reseller. I don't actually sell anything.

The problem is that those pages sit in inline frames. There are some issues
with the script from the pages in Firefox apparently. The code in those
pages is out of my control and hence "friendly and helpful" posts regarding
that.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

Now offering templates ranging from
affordable standard templates to
powerful e-commerce applications!

 

[Chris Hope]

Do some looking into user agent sniffing scripts. The Grey dude is
just
ignorant in their use. If you see a script that sniffs for IE and
Mozilla in the user agent string, that doesn't mean that you are only
supporting IE or Mozilla.

It's actually really easy to make layered nav work across a wide variety
of browsers and platforms and you don't need to use any special browser
sniffing techniques other than checking for document.getElementById
(which means it doesn't work in some of the really old browsers like
IE4). I have some Javascript I've used on a variety of sites and it's
pretty compact and easy to understand; I've seen some really horrific
big Javascript files that do some crazy stuff to get the menus to work
and they're always difficult to maintain. But then as long as your nav
works for your target audience then it shouldn't really be an issue.

 

[Tom Pepper Willett]

I give you that, my friend.

Tom
|
| But it does provide for some fun on a Friday afternoon.
|
| --
| Jim Cheshire
| JIMCO
| http://www.jimcoaddins.com
|
| Now offering templates ranging from
| affordable standard templates to
| powerful e-commerce applications!
|
|
|

 

[Eric Jarvis]

Why in the world would a Mac user worry about Frontpage, since there is no
Mac version????

And why would an FP site care about Mac users?

And there, gentlemen, we have the nib of the matter. Some people with
experience in delivering FP generated pages to IE users claiming that it's
able to do a lot more than they actually manage to do with it.

There's nothing wrong with a hobby site being less than perfectly
accessible. There's nothing wrong with a hobby site being less than
optimal when it comes to search engines or bandwidth usage. There's not
all that much wrong with an FP users site being aimed largely at IE users.
However none of that has anything to do with the commercial end of the
business, where the aim is effective and efficient delivery of content to
the maximum number of the target audience. An environment where FP is only
of any use as a tool for sketching rough prototypes.

I'm not going to diss FP for what it does competently. It's been
responsible for a lot of sites getting started and for a lot of people
taking the first steps in developing some web estate. The problem is when
some people expand out from their limited experience of using it in a
sheltered environment and start making inflated claims about what it's
capable of, then get defensive when challenged on it.

To get back to the original question posed. If all you are looking for is
a quick and dirty web presence with little effort or cost and with the
resulting lack of effectiveness and efficiency, then it doesn't matter
much whether you use FP or a CMS. You'll either have something that looks
sloppy or looks like it's been cobbled together from pre-existing
templates, but that will be fine. In order to actually have an effective
site then, whatever tool you use, you are going to have to think and sweat
in order to come up with a good and appropriate design. The tool used is a
minor factor. The important thing of knowing what that tool is capable of
and how it is best used, and the application of copious quantities of good
old fashioned thinking.

 

[Karim]

Google Maps doesn't work with Safari nor Opera. So Google alienated all Mac
OSX users. The Google of "Do No Evil". Safari & Opera do not include a
builtin XSLT engine which Maps uses to transform XML packets.

Note that IE was the first with a XSLT processor which Mozilla copied.
After Firefox, what does Opera offer that FF doesn't? I predict Opera going
away soon. They might have a market share in portable devices browsers.


Karim

 

[Stephen Horrillo]

You're not exactly the brightest bulb in the pack, are you?

Or, are you just a troll?

Bob Lehmann

Sounds like yo're the one who's trolling for an argument. Bye...

--
Warmest regards,

Stephen Horrillo, Realtor / C.Ht.
For MLS & Computer Training: www.BrokerAgentTraining.com
Realtors Earn Over 100% at EXIT: www.over100percent.com

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

You completely wrong, as FP can be used to develop any web site (commercial, business, hobby, you
name it), same as Dreamweaver or any other HTML editor or Notepad. It is a tool, and how the tool is
used, determine the final output along with user's knowledge of the application they are using,
their skill level and knowledge of available web technologies for the hosting platform.

Along with the skills and knowledge, the web developer must know and understand:
1. what is the goal of the site
2. what is the target audience for the site
3. does the site have to meet any accessibility requirements
4. what browser should be supported (this is easy for a site that has been online for awhile and
where access to the server log files are available, for new sites or sites that don't have access to
server log files, it is more difficult to determine, so the best bet is to try and support as many
browsers as possible.)

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Els]

3. does the site have to meet any accessibility
requirements

You mean - not determining how many accessibility requirements,
but actually checking if there are *any* accessibility

4. what browser should be supported (this is
easy for a site that has been online for awhile and where
access to the server log files are available,

Right, as in "the old site wasn't functioning in Mozilla, but
hey, we didn't see any Mozilla visitors in our logs, so our
target audience doesn't use Mozilla, hence we don't have to
support it" ?

for new sites
or sites that don't have access to server log files, it is
more difficult to determine, so the best bet is to try and
support as many browsers as possible.)

That's *always* the best bet. Except maybe for an Intranet site
in a controlled one browser only environment.

 

[Stephen Horrillo]

No, of course not. The concept that a web page should look professional
is
just a conspiracy by web designers to make sure that they always have
work.
Most people just want something bright and cheerful. I suggest that you
get
a young child to design the site with crayons on craft paper, scan each
page
in and save them as high quality jpegs, and post these to your site
instead.

I guess that's why the Sunflower theme is my favorite. In sales I was taught
to "always keep it on a third grade level." The part of the mind
(sub-conscious) that ultimately allows the decision to be make is childlike
in nature. So what you say rings true.

--
Warmest regards,

Stephen Horrillo, Realtor / C.Ht.
For MLS & Computer Training: www.BrokerAgentTraining.com
Realtors Earn Over 100% at EXIT: www.over100percent.com

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

See inline.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

You mean - not determining how many accessibility requirements,
but actually checking if there are *any* accessibility
requirements? <g>

No, exactly what I wrote, meaning if you are doing a site where there is a specific requirement that
you meet section 508, etc.

Right, as in "the old site wasn't functioning in Mozilla, but
hey, we didn't see any Mozilla visitors in our logs, so our
target audience doesn't use Mozilla, hence we don't have to
support it" ? Correct.


That's *always* the best bet. Except maybe for an Intranet site
in a controlled one browser only environment.

If building a site that offer add-ins for Netscape users, why would I be concerned about any other
browser being able to view the site?

If building a site for your family and they are all Windows XP IE6 users, why would I be concerned
about any other browser?

If building a e-commerce site where income is expected, then you should support the major browsers
from version 4 and up of IE and NS, FireFox.

In all cases, the site should look basically the same in all browsers, and there is no excuse for
not doing so, as it is possible.

 

[William Tasso]

You are most definitely one weird individual.

Resorting to 'ad hominem' lends neither advocate nor argument any
credibility.

 

[William Tasso]

...
only armatures claim the tools they use make them "professional".

are those the same 'professionals' that blame the same tools for
shortcomings in the finished work?

we keep motoring on.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

You completely wrong, as FP can be used to develop any web site (commercial, business, hobby, you
name it), same as Dreamweaver or any other HTML editor or Notepad. It is a tool, and how the tool is
used, determine the final output along with user's knowledge of the application they are using,
their skill level and knowledge of available web technologies for the hosting platform.

That is precisely what I said. You are either dishonest or a fool. By the
way, your erroneous posting style means that those of us who use a
competently programmed newsreader have to reinsert text manually because
you place your signature above any quoted text. This seems to typify your
blinkered up your own backside attitude.

What I posted included the following.

I'm not going to diss FP for what it does competently. It's been
responsible for a lot of sites getting started and for a lot of people
taking the first steps in developing some web estate. The problem is when
some people expand out from their limited experience of using it in a
sheltered environment and start making inflated claims about what it's
capable of, then get defensive when challenged on it.

To get back to the original question posed. If all you are looking for is
a quick and dirty web presence with little effort or cost and with the
resulting lack of effectiveness and efficiency, then it doesn't matter
much whether you use FP or a CMS. You'll either have something that looks
sloppy or looks like it's been cobbled together from pre-existing
templates, but that will be fine. In order to actually have an effective
site then, whatever tool you use, you are going to have to think and sweat
in order to come up with a good and appropriate design. The tool used is a
minor factor. The important thing of knowing what that tool is capable of
and how it is best used, and the application of copious quantities of good
old fashioned thinking.

You can use FP. What you can't do is rely on FP to generate professional
quality mark up or coding without human intervention. We've already got an
example of that elsewhere in the thread.

Look, I don't care for what reason you feel the need to aggressively
market the product. It makes no difference to me whether you do so because
you are a self important moron who feels the need to feed his ego by
insisting that his is the only way of doing things, or whether you have
some ulterior motive. Perhaps you are just too dumb to understand long
words. Nobody is arguing that you can't use FP as a somewhat cumbersome
text editor and site management tool. It's perfectly adequate for that,
it's also a perfectly adequate prototyping tool. What it can't do, and
what it will NEVER be able to do, is to create mark up or code that is
anywhere near as effective as even a moderately competent human being can.
What it doesn't even pretend to do is take the place of actually thinking
about how a design needs to work. Use it as you will, but DON'T either
misrepresent my posts or assume you can get away with trying to fool the
gullible into thinking that any software can do their thinking for them.

 

[William Tasso]

...
Then maybe I will
become a web guru and laugh at people that use FP...

Not nice to laugh

and remember .... in the hands of a craftsman any tool can be put to
good use.