Is the Professional Look Really Better?

[Eric Jarvis]

Not nice to laugh

and remember .... in the hands of a craftsman any tool can be put to
good use.

Even the AOL CDs, they make excellent ashtrays if you melt them in a
microwave.

 

[William Tasso]

...
sniffing for Mozilla in the user agent string is
a perfectly valid way of determing a browser

ugh - to what purpose?

all browsers identify
themselves with the Mozilla string.

really? check your logs

...
Out of 15,000+ unique visits this week, only 30 were from Opera.

I wonder how many of those (15k) are browsers configured by their users
to spoof IE headers just to confound the browser sniffers.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

You said the following:

"The problem is when some people expand out from their limited experience of using it in a sheltered
environment and start making inflated claims about what it's capable of, then get defensive when
challenged on it."

You are saying the FP has limited capabilities, whereas FP is completely capable of being used to
produce any web site on the internet, just like every other HTML editor or Notepad. It is a tool and
that all. Now have I mis-understood what you wrote?

BTW: I like my newsreader as well as all the applications I used, and I don't care whether or not
you like it, and if you don't like how my post appear, then don't read/reply to them. The only issue
I have with a posting, is when someone type in ALL CAPS, and generally in this newsgroup we prefer
top posting vs. bottom posting and no snipping of content, when dealing subjects the meet the
purpose of this newsgroup.

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Els]

See inline.

That's a superfluous remark in this newsgroup, where
topposting is considered bad behaviour.

As is putting your sig at the top of a message. Sigs go at the
bottom. Have you ever signed a form or a letter at the top of
the page?

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage
support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp

Oh, and also: sigs are supposed to have no more than 4 lines.
Your sig is a complete advertisement, hence should be posted
separately from your messages. (i.e. messages into
alt.www.webmaster, sig into alt.www.webmaster.ads) ;-)

And here's where the actual message starts:

No, exactly what I wrote, meaning if you are doing a site
where there is a specific requirement that you meet section
508, etc.

That's /not/ what you wrote. You wrote: "Does the site have to
meet any accessibility requirements". Section 508, etc are not
the only accessibility requirements in this www world. Being
visible to a regular sighted user in a plain IE6 browser on
Windows XP is also an accessibility requirement. Or at least I
should hope so

Correct.

I think you misread my message. Just in case it needs
explanation: do you realize, that if the site isn't accessible
to Mozilla users, that they will never show up in your logs?
Meaning: you have no way of knowing whether you could have 5%
more paying customers had you made the site functioning in
Mozilla.

I recently saw the site of a Dutch insurance company. A large
and very well known company even. Their site is completely
inaccessible when you have JavaScript off, or if you are not
using IE. Hence, it's completely inaccessible to me, as my IE
has no scripting enabled, while my other browsers have.
How does that company ever find out they lost me as a
customer?

If building a site that offer add-ins for Netscape users,
why would I be concerned about any other browser being able
to view the site?

Because I sometimes surf with IE on Windows and download stuff
that I transfer over my LAN to my Linux box? (or vice versa)

If building a site for your family and they are all Windows
XP IE6 users, why would I be concerned about any other
browser?

Just in case someone finally convinces Grandma that she'd
better install Firefox?

If building a e-commerce site where income is expected,
then you should support the major browsers from version 4
and up of IE and NS, FireFox.

Yup, agreed. Doesn't mean version 4 has to look nice though.

In all cases, the site should look basically the same in
all browsers, and there is no excuse for not doing so, as
it is possible.

Looking the same isn't half as important as functioning
correctly in all browsers. Although I do agree, that where
possible, it's nice to have it almost look exactly the same in
all browsers.

 

[Els]

BTW: I like my newsreader as well as all the applications I
used, and I don't care whether or not you like it, and if
you don't like how my post appear, then don't read/reply to
them. The only issue I have with a posting, is when someone
type in ALL CAPS, and generally in this newsgroup we prefer
top posting vs. bottom posting and no snipping of content,
when dealing subjects the meet the purpose of this
newsgroup.

This newsgroup?

Would you mind cutting alt.www.webmaster off your posts then?

 

[William Tasso]

Even the AOL CDs, they make excellent ashtrays if you melt them in a
microwave.

which reminds me, I must dash off a 'thank you' to wannado for the junk
mail. All the shiny bits have fallen off my AOL CDs over winter and
they need replacing with new shiny CDs to keep the birds from pecking at
the seedlings this spring.

 

[Els]

which reminds me, I must dash off a 'thank you' to wannado
for the junk mail. All the shiny bits have fallen off my
AOL CDs over winter and they need replacing with new shiny
CDs to keep the birds from pecking at the seedlings this
spring.

<g>

 

[William Tasso]

See inline.

ugh?

was going to reply, but I can't be arsed to reassemble the post.

In the meantime, some gentle reading ....

http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

That's a superfluous remark in this newsgroup, where
topposting is considered bad behaviour.

As is putting your sig at the top of a message. Sigs go at the
bottom. Have you ever signed a form or a letter at the top of
the page?


Oh, and also: sigs are supposed to have no more than 4 lines.
Your sig is a complete advertisement, hence should be posted
separately from your messages. (i.e. messages into
alt.www.webmaster, sig into alt.www.webmaster.ads) ;-)

And here's where the actual message starts:


That's /not/ what you wrote. You wrote: "Does the site have to
meet any accessibility requirements". Section 508, etc are not
the only accessibility requirements in this www world. Being
visible to a regular sighted user in a plain IE6 browser on
Windows XP is also an accessibility requirement. Or at least I
should hope so


I think you misread my message. Just in case it needs
explanation: do you realize, that if the site isn't accessible
to Mozilla users, that they will never show up in your logs?
Meaning: you have no way of knowing whether you could have 5%
more paying customers had you made the site functioning in
Mozilla.

I guess you have never looked at your raw log files, every hit/visit is recorded, and what pages
were requested and delivered or failed to be delivered, etc. by user agent (or lack of). The log
file has nothing whatsoever to do with if the user could actually see anything on the page because
of the browser being used.

I recently saw the site of a Dutch insurance company. A large
and very well known company even. Their site is completely
inaccessible when you have JavaScript off, or if you are not
using IE. Hence, it's completely inaccessible to me, as my IE
has no scripting enabled, while my other browsers have.
How does that company ever find out they lost me as a
customer?

That is their problem, since they chose to rely on JavaScript. That goes back to where I say a
developer need to know/understand web technologies.

Because I sometimes surf with IE on Windows and download stuff
that I transfer over my LAN to my Linux box? (or vice versa)

I assume you have a browser on your Linux box which you could use.

Just in case someone finally convinces Grandma that she'd
better install Firefox?


Yup, agreed. Doesn't mean version 4 has to look nice though.

There is no reason for a site to not to look basically the same, except for lazyness on the part of
the developer or the wanting to use all of the latest web technologies that are only support in the
most current browsers.

Looking the same isn't half as important as functioning
correctly in all browsers. Although I do agree, that where
possible, it's nice to have it almost look exactly the same in
all browsers.

If you make the site look basically the same in all browser, then it will also function in all
browsers, that is part of looking the same, at least to me.

 

[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

Resorting to 'ad hominem' lends neither advocate nor argument any
credibility.

I agree. Perhaps you'd like to review the definition of 'ad hominem'.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

Now offering templates ranging from
affordable standard templates to
powerful e-commerce applications!

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Actually, when I post I get a message that alt.www.webmaster couldn't be resolved, since I am not
subscribed to it, so I wasn't aware that it was being posted.

I will be sure to remove it on any additional post.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Chris Leeds, MVP-FrontPage]

I don't think your comment came out the way you intended it.

--
Chris Leeds,
Microsoft MVP-FrontPage

ContentSeed: great tool for web masters,
a fantastic convenience for site owners.
http://contentseed.com/
--

 

[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

I wonder how many of those (15k) are browsers configured by their
users to spoof IE headers just to confound the browser sniffers.

I'm sure there are some "look at me" bumper-sticker-toting fools who get
their jollies spoofing their user agent string. The only purpose it serves
it to screw with their own browsing experience, so you have to wonder at the
intelligence of such actions... or the lack thereof.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

Now offering templates ranging from
affordable standard templates to
powerful e-commerce applications!

 

[William Tasso]

Actually, when I post I get a message that alt.www.webmaster couldn't be resolved, since I am not
subscribed to it, so I wasn't aware that it was being posted.

http://www.google.com/search?q="how+usenet+works"

 

[Jim Cheshire \(JIMCO\)]

Actually, when I post I get a message that alt.www.webmaster couldn't
be resolved, since I am not subscribed to it, so I wasn't aware that
it was being posted.
I will be sure to remove it on any additional post.

That's exactly why we have all of these snobs posting in here now, and
exactly why there are so many goons out there celebrating the fact that
their text-only Web site validates with the W3C while all of us actually
making money and drawing visitors to our Web sites don't.

--
Jim Cheshire
JIMCO
http://www.jimcoaddins.com

Now offering templates ranging from
affordable standard templates to
powerful e-commerce applications!

 

[Chris Leeds, MVP-FrontPage]

Believe it or not I've never been able to get into the adobe studio site
with internet explorer. I can only get in with firefox and the link.

 

[Els]

Thomas A. Rowe wrote:

[nothing snipped here by me, it just disappeared when I
pressed reply]

Oops - pressed reply without first highlighting the entire
message. Oh well, that happens when the '-- ' is at the top of
the post instead of at the bottom.

Do you realize it's quite annoying to have to read your
messages in light grey? (as is the colour for sigs in my
newsreader)

Btw - if you might answer again, I won't.

Just this time I'll answer from what I remember just having
read:

Yes, I look at my raw logs - I do know that every hit is
registered.
Now you tell me: a large company with hundreds or more visits
per day - do they read their raw logs, or do they read the
nice stats that say 1% mozilla 99% IE? And what if that 1% is
just hits on the splash page and the 99% actually could surf
the site? How's your maths?

Yes, my Linux box has a browser and yes, I can access the
internet with it. But I don't always have it fired up, and I
do sometimes encounter nice things to have when surfing with
Windows. I choose then to download it for later transportation
to Linux, instead of firing up the box for one download only.

About relying on JavaScript: that was not just the case. It
relied on people having IE installed. Even if every IE user
has JavaScript installed, or even if the site didn't have any
JavaScript - it was made inaccessible to non-IE users, with or
without JavaScript. I didn't use it as an example of relying
on scripts, but as an example of bad development, choosing to
only support one browser.

 

[William Tasso]

I agree. Perhaps you'd like to review the definition of 'ad hominem'.

To what purpose? I know what it means - and your post implies you do
too. I'm sure others reading can use their favourite S/E to reveal a
definition that they are comfortable with.

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

I am going to miss the exchange..., the Usenet and OE lessons..
But at least I didn't get beat up for having Microsoft in my sig.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================

 

[Thomas A. Rowe]

Oh well...

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================